Author Topic: GM is saying swift actions and immediate actions are the same deal  (Read 17227 times)

Offline Soft Insanity

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I've got a gm here telling me that i can't use my swift action to activate my amulet of tears for hps, then use my shadow cloak on the monster's attack to teleport out of the way.  I tried to explain to him that using it only prevents me from using my swift action next turn.  He's insisting i can't do this.

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Re: GM is saying swift actions and immediate actions are the same deal
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2014, 11:09:19 PM »
It's very clearly spelled out in the rules for immediate actions, pretty much everywhere they've been printed. If you use an immediate action on your turn, it takes your swift action for your turn. If you use it after your turn ends, it takes up your swift action for the next turn.

Have you showed the DM the text?
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Offline Soft Insanity

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Re: GM is saying swift actions and immediate actions are the same deal
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2014, 11:10:09 PM »
He looked in the rules compendium and can't separate the 2 sentences:

Using an immediate action on your turn counts as your
swift action for that turn.
AND If you use an immediate action
when it isn’t your turn, you can’t use another immediate
action or a swift action until after your next turn.


I just left the game so it's not biggie.  I'm not gonna deal with this type of GM.

Offline Soft Insanity

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Re: GM is saying swift actions and immediate actions are the same deal
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2014, 11:15:59 PM »
It's very clearly spelled out in the rules for immediate actions, pretty much everywhere they've been printed. If you use an immediate action on your turn, it takes your swift action for your turn. If you use it after your turn ends, it takes up your swift action for the next turn.

Have you showed the DM the text?

His issue seems to be rounds and turns.  He thinks you should never be able to take a swift and immediate action in the same round is what I gathered.  Anyway, this guy was the most confrontational GM I've ever seen.  He was super upset that my artificer was the only player not dying in any given encounter.  I tried to explain to him that the alternative was a TPK.

Offline Solo

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Re: GM is saying swift actions and immediate actions are the same deal
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2014, 11:18:45 PM »
Sounds like a terrible game.
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline Soft Insanity

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Re: GM is saying swift actions and immediate actions are the same deal
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2014, 11:55:35 PM »
Sounds like a terrible game.

Yes, easily the worst of the year so far for me.  It never occurred to him that taking the other players out in round 1 with massive damage wasn't good.  He also blamed me for playing too powerful a character.  Don't advertise your game as high powered if it's not gonna be.  If you get 5 of 6 players joining your game with mundanes, try to adjust to them, not the 1 guy who actually is high powered.  I wasn't going out of my way to mess him up, I was just trying my best to be harder to hit while i tried to buff the other players.  Unfortunately, at the end there I had no choice but to wand summon giants to end encounters.  You know there's a problem when it takes 5 wand charges to take down the encounters.

Offline Solo

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Offline linklord231

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I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Argent Fatalis

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Re: GM is saying swift actions and immediate actions are the same deal
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2014, 03:29:46 AM »
Guess who I found complaining on EN World??

I don't think I've seen someone so adamant to be right despite evidence of the contrary sort in long time.

His responses just continue to decline too... I believe it was a wise choice to leave that group, Insanity.

Offline Solo

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« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 03:52:14 AM by Solo »
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Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: GM is saying swift actions and immediate actions are the same deal
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2014, 03:56:37 AM »
When all the evidence points to one conclusion, and a particular dissection of one part of one rule leads to another, it's usually safe to say that you are reading the rule wrong.

Offline linklord231

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Re: GM is saying swift actions and immediate actions are the same deal
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2014, 04:33:19 AM »
I'd like to point out that his entire argument hinges on the interpretation that the "or" is exclusive and that "in a normal round" means "in any round ever", but has not presented any evidence supporting this belief. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Soft Insanity

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Re: GM is saying swift actions and immediate actions are the same deal
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2014, 04:44:26 AM »
Guess who I found complaining on EN World??

I don't think I've seen someone so adamant to be right despite evidence of the contrary sort in long time.

His responses just continue to decline too... I believe it was a wise choice to leave that group, Insanity.

I was wrong on one count in all this since he made his guy go invisible with "programmed illusion" somehow.  So I was flatfooted and unable to use my shadow cloak.  That said, my issue was with his ruling on swift and immediate actions.  I admitted I couldn't use it as soon as I realized it.  Mistakes happen all the time.  It's when you press that you're right that things go downhill.

Anyway, this is how that game went down:  Gestalt 3.path with mythic tiers and make your own race.  I was the only one playing anything with magic, a factotum 1/incarnate 4//artificer 5.  The mythic abilities allows you to craft any item in the game and the FAQ on pathfinder allows you to sub a spellcraft check for caster level on item creation (that's how i got some items earlier than normal).  So I'm sitting on schemas of metamagic item and partially charged wands (he said any rules, i didn't even bother telling him i was using that one).  He ruled i had to lose some of my reduction feats because he didn't like them.

So, game 1: We fight, get this, 46 2hd orcs with +8 to hit doing 2d8+13 dmg and mythic go 2x per round template.  The other player almost instantly dies.  There were only 2 of us and we're level 3.  Airwalk scrolls saves the day, but barely since they also had bows with +6 to hit.  Crits almost take me down.  Now, how do I do damage to them?  I don't, I spend my time healing the other players so they can deal with it.  GM gets pissed at me, and me and the other player get pissed at the gm for running unbeatable encounters.  He said "running was an option" however it was not due to lack of map drawing skills and the orcs being 40' move speed barbarians (which meant they could outrun the other guy who was 30' move (even tho he was flying).  The issue with this is it was taking the other player 2 rounds to take out 1 guy due to my bane stacked infusions on him.  It should have been 1 hit one kill and they shouldn't have been going 2x per round.  I gestimate we were tpk'd about 7x but the gm mulligan'd stuff.

game 2: I go super buff since we're level 4, and make it so the 2 hd orcs don't hit us on anything but a 20.  Now we go back and fight 32 more, an illithid, and some super plant creatures.  GM gets upset that he needs a 20 to hit us, even tho we still almost die.  GM insists i use my actions to heal the others so I do.  Except I'm having no part of the damage, so I'm persisting Permeable form from a wand using the sick combo of schemas of metamagic item (yeah i'm that mean).  This time there was an extra player so 3 of us.  The other player's squire dies instantly just for walking into the room and having the wrong bane blind up.

game 3: Other player leaves after first combat...against mythic template, half dragon template, fire giants.  We're level 5, there's 2 of them and 3 of us.  I crafted a few things, but mostly the other players pooled their money to try to raise the squire.  The other 2 players straight up died in the first round.  I'm bane blinded against them and use earthbind spell storing to take them out of the air.  Once they lose flight, they are beatable with pinging.  So, the other player leaves, saying he has to do something, but the real reason is the game is way way way too hard.  We try to tell the gm, but he keeps doing it.  We go do some arena where we can't prebuff more than 1 round because he's having a fit over my buffing.  So I make a wand of summon giants, a wand of spectral hand, and a wand of shivering touch.  We fight 3 wizards.  They instantly lose to shivering touchtotem.  If they were allowed to keep going, they'd have hypnotized the fighter with their 5th level spells.  We're level 5, so that's real fair.  The next combat is against 2 cloud giants.  I "buff" out 2 stone giants from summon wand because i want to keep my good alignment.  The other player charges the giants and gets hit for 156 damage and straight up dies.  He sits there and watches me airstep sandal fly up and spam my summon giants until the cloud giants die.  GM decides this isn't enough to level us.  Other player rage quits after the battle when he tells the GM to stop making the encounters so hard.  He seems to think I'll be upset if he makes the encounters easier for some reason even tho I said I won't be and if he does I'll scale back accordingly.

Now, the last game, it's me alone.  I solo out of a bunch of low level mooks with permeable form, heroics: combat ref, and thunderlance cheese.  We get to the boss fight and then the GM decides he's had enough of my superior action use and says I can't use my get out of the way thing.  I'm 1 player against 2 dudes who are CR 10+ and I'm still level 5.  He couldn't even give me a break.  He said he would make the encounters easier, but he f'in lied.  They might be easier for my character, but against anyone else's character they would be impossible.

He's got a few new people looking to join the game, I suspect he's about to make more people upset.  The difference is, this time he won't have me to blame.

Offline Solo

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Offline Soft Insanity

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Re: GM is saying swift actions and immediate actions are the same deal
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2014, 05:32:54 AM »
I was in constant contact with the other player while we played before he quit.  I can tell you, the GM repeatedly told me the reason he quit was because I was playing too strong a character.  It's funny he said that to my face while I was talking to said player.  I have a very interesting skype log for it.  The game log that goes along with it the GM has.  If you were to compare the 2, you'd see how funny this whole situation was.  Let this be a lesson to new GMs, don't be so adversarial.  Also, don't run high powered games unless you've got the experience.

Offline Solo

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Re: GM is saying swift actions and immediate actions are the same deal
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2014, 05:40:44 AM »
After a discussion with the contributing members of the thread, I think it is possible that, for immediate and swift actions, the round resets after the end of an individual's turn. Having a 1/round limitation on swift and immediate actions actually explains why immediate actions after a turn eating into the swift action for the next turn, because the space between and the next turn would be part of the same round under this paradigm.

tl;dr I should be everyone's DM.
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Offline SolEiji

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Re: GM is saying swift actions and immediate actions are the same deal
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2014, 06:09:37 AM »
I looked over it and I think it was still an issue, but I have evidence how a round is from your turn to the end of your next turn.  Look at True Strike.  It lasts 1 round and you're suppose to cast it, then next round attack someone.  If a round ended at the beginning of your turn you could never use that spell, so it clearly ends at the end of your turn.  That's when things reset, durations tick down, and so forth.
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Offline Solo

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Re: GM is saying swift actions and immediate actions are the same deal
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2014, 06:15:40 AM »
I'm going to steal that argument and post it to see what response I can garner.
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Offline Stratovarius

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Re: GM is saying swift actions and immediate actions are the same deal
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2014, 06:20:38 AM »
I'm going to steal that argument and post it to see what response I can garner.

Have you been at this for 8 hours straight? That is some impressive dedication.

Also, this guy is quite the troll DM. Refuses to change ideas, loud, brash, and stubborn. Just what you want running your game. It's rather impressive.