comparing costs of healing, staff vs wand of lesser vigor

[taltamir]

EDIT All the staff info in this post is invalidated by the fact that a staff cannot be crafted with a caster level lower than 8. I didn't realize that when I was doing the math. END EDIT

A staff and a wand both costs 750 x CL x SL
with CL = minimum (or at your choice higher, up to your current actual) caster level and SL = spell level.
the staff has the interesting advantage that it uses the attributes of the person casting from it. So CL is raised appropriately if your caster level is higher then the base. It does require a masterwork quarterstaff to be enchanted though (a cost of 300gp; since a non masterwork quaterstaff has no listed value).

So lets do the math:
lesser vigor is known as the best bang for the buck healing spell. It is a level 1 spell that heals 10 + CL (to a max of 15 rounds total at CL5)

The staff costs 1x1x750 + 300gp = 1050gp
the wand costs 1x1x750 = 750gp
The cost per cast is the cost of the item divided by 50 since both have 50 charges.
so for the staff it is 1050/50 = 21 per cast, for the wand it is 750/50 = 15.

Used by a level 5 or above cleric or druid, the staff heals 15HP, @ 21gp per cast that is 21gp/15HP = 1.4 gp/HP.
A wand heals 11HP at any level, @15gp a pop, thats 15gp/11HP = 1.363636 (repeating) gp/HP.

For the first 50 uses, the wand is actually the greater value, had the bonus capped out higher allowing a 6th level cleric to heal 16hp, it would have resulted in the staff being cheaper.

However, the staff remains a 300gp masterwork staff ready for a recharge when you spend the last charge.
Over multiple recharges the 300gp one time cost is less than what you save for each casting.
This happens regardless of whether your DM allows you to use the optional rules for recharging staves/wands for half price

For example, with 1 recharge
staff costs 1500+300 for 100 charges  = 18gp/cast
wand costs 1500 for 100 charges = 15gp/cast

if used cast by a level 5+ character
18gp/15HP = 1.2 gp/HP.
15gp/11HP = 1.363636 (repeating) gp/HP.

With just a single recharge the staff becomes cheaper

[kitep]

I was thinking this was great, and was even going to add that you can put a second spell in the staff for 75%, and a third and more for 50%, so having a staff of CLW & Lesser Vigor & other 1st level healing spells would be really cheap.

Then I came across a problem - minimum caster level for a staff is 8th level.

DMG, p243, right before the Abjuration staff

Furthermore, a staff can hold a spell of any level, unlike a wand,
which is limited to spells of 4th level or lower. The minimum
caster level of a staff is 8th. Standard staffs are described below

DMG, p287, under "Creating Staffs", 2nd paragraph

If desired, a spell can be placed into the staff at only half the
normal cost, but then activating that particular spell costs 2
charges from the staff. The caster level of all spells in a staff must
be the same, and no staff can have a caster level of less than 8th,
even if all the spells in the staff are low-level spells.

[taltamir]

Oh, that is unfortunate. I looked it up and a wand does not have this limitation
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingStaffs

Also, the craft wand feat requires caster level 5, while the craft staff feat requires caster level 12 to take.

Needing a mid level caster to create the item is surmountable, since you could purchase it (indeed, purchasing rather then crafting was assumed)
But the minimum caster level being 8 completely ruins the value of staves for this purpose. So wands it is

[taltamir]

I was thinking this was great, and was even going to add that you can put a second spell in the staff for 75%, and a third and more for 50%, so having a staff of CLW & Lesser Vigor & other 1st level healing spells would be really cheap.

I have never seen any possible justification to ever have a staff with more than one spell in it.
All the spells share the same number of charges.

For example, lets say you want a staff of fireball + lightning at caster level 10 (where both of these spells do 10d6 damage)
The fireball staff costs 3*10*750  = 22500 gp for the spellwork + 300gp for the staff itself. so 22800 total. and can cast 50 fireballs

The fireball + lightening staff costs 3*10*750 + 0.75(3*10*750) = 39,375gp for the spellwork and 300gp for the staff itself. 39675 total for 50 uses of EITHER fireball OR lightening. So, 25 of each, or 10 + 40, or 1+49, your choice.

You are much much much better off getting one staff of fireball, and one staff of lightning. If you can afford both at full price, you have 100 spells vs 50 at only slightly more money.

If you can't afford both at full price then you can make one of them at half cost and only 25 uses. so you get 50 lightenings and 25 fireballs for less money than 25 fireballs and 25 lightnings on the combo staff.

Or heck, for almost the same as the cost of the one 50 uses staff (22800 vs 23100) you can get two staves, one with 25 uses of lightening and one with 25 uses of fireball

[ksbsnowowl]

If you can't afford both at 50 casts then you can make one of them at half cost and only 25 charges.

You can't make an item with half charges.  Purchase, sure.  Create? Not a chance.

A newly created wand has 50 charges.

A newly created staff has 50 charges.

[taltamir]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingStaffs

If desired, a spell can be placed into the staff at only half the normal cost, but then activating that particular spell costs 2 charges from the staff. The caster level of all spells in a staff must be the same, and no staff can have a caster level of less than 8th, even if all the spells in the staff are low-level spells.

A staff containing only one spell, crafted at half cost, has 50 "charges" but each cast costs 2. aka, it has 25 charges.
I should have used the term "number of castings" instead of "charges". in fact, I am editing it now.
my point stands though

[ksbsnowowl]

Gotcha.  Yeah, that should work.

[taltamir]

Yea, my fault for phrasing it poorly, I went ahead and edited the post to clarify, using the term "uses" instead of "charges"

PS. I am assuming you will be using
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#handyHaversack
to get the right staff in battle

[kitep]

I have never seen any possible justification to ever have a staff with more than one spell in it.
All the spells share the same number of charges.

You're right.  I knew about the one spell per staff thing, but had forgotten about it when posting.

[Kethrian]

A rod of Lesser Vigour, a use-activated magic item that has no limit on uses, at CL 1, would cost 1,800 gp.  You're already creating magic items, so may as well go for the most efficient per gp out of combat healing possible.

[vaz]

More than one spell is a DM's ability to help prevent breaking too much. Without access to free action withdrawals or stowage it becomes laborious - and any wizard dropping their staff is going to see it fall into the pit below them, (search checks to locate it), or have it used against them by some roguelike.

[LudicSavant]

Fun fact:  Runescarred berserkers get Cure Moderate Wounds as a level 1 spell.  Other classes can borrow things off of PrC lists, then make wands.

A wand of Cure Moderate Wounds has an average healing of 10, which is only 1 less than a Lesser Vigor wand.  The difference is that it applies this healing in 1 round, which means that the amount of time you spend between combats healing is shorter.  This is occasionally relevant, since the sounds of your battle might have raised an alarm or something, and you don't want to wait.  It also means that you're not putting as much strain on your buff durations.  Ultimately, what it loses (slightly) in gp/hp efficiency, it makes up for in reduced downtime before you're fully ready for the next encounter.

[ksbsnowowl]

Fun fact:  Runescarred berserkers get Cure Moderate Wounds as a level 1 spell.  Other classes can borrow things off of PrC lists, then make wands.

A wand of Cure Moderate Wounds has an average healing of 10, which is only 1 less than a Lesser Vigor wand.  The difference is that it applies this healing in 1 round, which means that the amount of time you spend between combats healing is shorter.  This is occasionally relevant, since the sounds of your battle might have raised an alarm or something, and you don't want to wait.  It also means that you're not putting as much strain on your buff durations.  Ultimately, what it loses (slightly) in gp/hp efficiency, it makes up for in reduced downtime before you're fully ready for the next encounter.

It's going to be more difficult (I actually think it is impossible) to make use of the RSB's list of runescars for any other purpose.  The class specifically points out that they are not spell casters, and they don't cast spells.  They can only make runescars, and the affects of those runescars can only affect the RSB bearing them, or the RSB's own items.

Thus, there is no way to get a scroll of a RSB's runescars, or anything like that (I'm assuming you were thinking Archivist).

A runescar berserker can only cast spells by crafting them as runescars; she has no other spellcasting capability and cannot use spell completion or spell trigger magic items based on spells from this list.
...
Runescars are considered divine spells, although a berserker does not actively prepare or cast them. ... All runescar spells target only the runescarred berserker or an item in her possession, even if the spell scribed could normally be bestowed on another subject.

It's possible some DM's would allow a RSB to activate a runescar as the "providing the requisite spell" portion of crafting a scroll, but I wouldn't expect many DM's to allow it.

[LudicSavant]

Good point.  Guess that's what I get for just looking at the lists and not the PrC itself while spelldiving.

[Captnq]

Gee... I wonder if anyone every did a thread about what you can do with healing spells...

[taltamir]

More than one spell is a DM's ability to help prevent breaking too much. Without access to free action withdrawals or stowage it becomes laborious - and any wizard dropping their staff is going to see it fall into the pit below them, (search checks to locate it), or have it used against them by some roguelike.

If you use a staff it is because you want the ability to spam a spell. With HHH you can quickdraw any staff you want. Dropping it is indeed a potential problem, but realistically you shouldn't be swapping the staff cast spell back and forth
Also, you have 2 hands and a staff can be used either 1handed or 2 handed at your discretion.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I like that second post. Immediate, helpful rules.

Speaking of abusing staves, I haven't really seen them used in a way that makes me feel they warrant their own magic item section. Sure you can ancestral relic, and there are ways allow to customize the spells, but I always find rods more interesting. Of course next someone will finally post a stave that is very useful and clearly worth the money...

[awaken_D_M_golem]

You can't make an item with half charges.  Purchase, sure.  Create? Not a chance.

Only thing I know for sure that can make lesser charged items, is the 3.0e Lantan/Gnome Artificer. And it's quite limited.
I vaguely recall something else, but too hazy about it.

Purchase always bugged me deeply.  It requires a real backstory --- which is never done.
Also popped up a lot, by one (unnamed) of the tedious Monk Versus thread(s) arguers ; luckily just BG era.

But there's always custom items, and iirc MIC did something with odd crafting.
(idk not my thing)

edit --- cross bumped the other healing thread because excuses and cloacas.

[SorO_Lost]

Also popped up a lot, by one (unnamed) of the tedious Monk Versus thread(s) arguers ; luckily just BG era.

Those types of arguments really held things people back as well. Faaaaaaaaaaaaaar to much bitching about who's favorite class could beat who and trying to argue a just how many ways your measurement method should be allowed to bend instead of something useful. Like a Barbarian buying a Wand of Waithstrike because without Shock Trooper his Power Attack's accuracy is pretty abysmal and suddenly you may have made a noncharger Barb actually relevant on the table top.