Author Topic: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!  (Read 26765 times)

Offline VennDygrem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4587
  • Exceptionally Average
    • View Profile
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2014, 01:49:31 AM »
I'll make a note that I've been running the playtest rules for my group for about a year now, and it's gone very smoothly. I've made a few houserules here and there, but overall it's worked out well. No one's felt underpowered (not even the Monk! Imagine that!) and combat generally has moved at a brisk-enough pace. The last playtest packet matches what's presented in the Basic rules pretty closely, with a few minor exceptions. There's at least one extra class-based path/tradition/what-have-you for each class in the playtest packet compared to what's in the Basic Rules, so once the PHB comes out I think players will find the extra options a bit less "vanilla." For instance, the fairly 'boring'-looking Fighter has more options coming that aren't just "You get a bigger crit-range." The rogue can be less 'thief' and more 'assassin'. The cleric has more diverse domain choices. Etc.

The Basic rules presented are merely the core game, as people have come to expect it; the core 4 classes and the core 4 races. I think it's a good introduction to the game for people who haven't really played D&D before. Anyone who has played before will probably get more enjoyment from the more advanced options and classes that will be released later.

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2014, 07:25:57 AM »
Well, nice to hear it's functional.

Offline Prime32

  • Over-Underling
  • Retired Admin
  • *****
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2014, 09:40:55 AM »
Just started reading. Why so many Drizzt references, guys?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 09:53:03 AM by Prime32 »

Offline oslecamo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2014, 10:05:13 AM »
Because the dual-wielding drow renegade is probably the most popular named D&D character in modern times? :p

Offline Agita

  • He Who Lurks
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2705
  • *stare*
    • View Profile
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2014, 11:10:24 AM »
Having given the rules a read yesterday, it looks functional enough. I like several of the things I've done, and the advantage mechanic may go some way toward mitigating the huge swing of the d20. Current assessment: Neutral to cautiously optimistic, with a big "we don't have the full rules yet" caveat. The references to +number weapons still being a thing make me nervous about the handling of gear and the general basic integrity of the system's math, but we'll see. Venn, were magic items/wealth rules in the playtest and if so, how were they handled?
Please send private messages regarding board matters to Forum Staff instead.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2014, 02:33:02 PM »
So casting is like:

a) ... Sorc Slots, easy enough
b) ... Erudite/Wilder # of powers, above levels that math-wise work with the 4e easier maths
c) ... Augment + CL leveling up, combined into a simplified mechanic, cost keyed to the Slots, instead of ML/CL too complicated brain'splode.

I get the impression, they're confident about 4e maths carried over
but want to radically limit the more 3e-ey type higher level spells.
Maybe they just wing it at the top end (again) ... but tighter.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline VennDygrem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4587
  • Exceptionally Average
    • View Profile
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2014, 02:50:21 PM »
Having given the rules a read yesterday, it looks functional enough. I like several of the things I've done, and the advantage mechanic may go some way toward mitigating the huge swing of the d20. Current assessment: Neutral to cautiously optimistic, with a big "we don't have the full rules yet" caveat. The references to +number weapons still being a thing make me nervous about the handling of gear and the general basic integrity of the system's math, but we'll see. Venn, were magic items/wealth rules in the playtest and if so, how were they handled?

They were. Magic items are actually not a necessity for characters to keep up, and so far they haven't really caused my players to break anything. Anything higher than a +1 weapon/armor is essentially so rare that almost no one has them. Usually, things with more magic than that moreso have extra properties, like a +1 flaming sword. Magic items tend to do other things, like slippers of spider climbing. The worst offender is the insistence on returning the Belt of Giant Strength and Gauntlets of Ogre Strength back to pre-3E, setting the character's strength to a predetermined score. I've taken to houseruling that the effective use of that is limited. If everyone assumed they could get their hands on one or the other, they'd all dump their strength for a few levels until they could get one. It's the one thing so far I've particularly disliked. Most of my players are cool enough not to all say, "I go looking for a belt of Giant Strength."

Magic Items, like a lot of things in 5E, are treated almost like another optional rule. You can disallow them if you like, and it won't mess anything up. As the DM, your job will be to decide how much magic wealth you want to give your players, and what items.

What makes this easier is a list of rarity, and what level players can generally expect to find items of that rarity. You could scale it back as much as you want, as it's just a general rule.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 02:52:10 PM by VennDygrem »

Offline Childe

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 485
  • Even forever must end, I think. ...
    • View Profile
    • Legend RPG, Rule of Cool Gaming
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2014, 03:40:33 PM »
  • Starting gear predefined by classes is disappointing.
  • Feats being optional is just so sad because it cuts down on variety/customization. I don't mind folding skills into ability scores.
  • I hate archetypes. I miss ACFs. Again, I feel like customization is being taken away from players.
  • As characters advance, spellcasters "create effects previously impossible" and warriors "make more attacks." Again, we run into spellcasters not just growing numerically but breaking fundamental rules while warriors attack more or harder.
  • Gridless is the default (grids are a variant rule), but several abilities for jumping refer to feet; this implies you need to break out rulers. There is no way I will do this.
  • The rules are expressly going to be routinely updated (changed). This was mentioned at the Origin panel, and is reinforced by the prominent "Version 0.1." This reminds me all too much of the chaos of consulting a 200+ page errata document in 4e and routinely being unaware powers had changed.
  • I also think the layout looks ugly. And several of the headers gave me no clear indication what their sections would actually be about.

A more nitpicky thing, in their joke foreword, they exempt themselves from the consequences of splitting up the party. They later actively encourage splitting up the party.

I don't feel obligated to get the newest edition by virtue of it existing, so I won't since I don't see the improvements outweighing both the new and continuing flaws and the cost of transition.

EDIT: Removed one issue that came from misquoted text.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 04:56:42 PM by Childe »
"You had a tough day at the office. So you come home, make
yourself some dinner, smother your kids, pop in a movie, maybe
have a drink. It's fun, right? Wrong. Don't smother your kids."
- The More You Know

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2014, 03:46:50 PM »
The Prestidigitation cantrip can create any sound. The Tunguska meteor burst was 315dB, creating a shockwave that would be lethal to humans.

Oh how I hate these sort of arguments. 'It's broken because IRL, you can use the literal cause of 'sound' to extend this into an instakill cantrip'.

I would cap it at under 120 dB for a separate reason (that's the pain threshold), but I wouldn't try and use that on a GM. Or to take advantage of the sound = just another type of wave in air thing to turn it into a spell that can cause arbitrarily powerful explosions.

Offline Childe

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 485
  • Even forever must end, I think. ...
    • View Profile
    • Legend RPG, Rule of Cool Gaming
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2014, 04:00:15 PM »
The Prestidigitation cantrip can create any sound. The Tunguska meteor burst was 315dB, creating a shockwave that would be lethal to humans.

Oh how I hate these sort of arguments. 'It's broken because IRL, you can use the literal cause of 'sound' to extend this into an instakill cantrip'.

I would cap it at under 120 dB for a separate reason (that's the pain threshold), but I wouldn't try and use that on a GM. Or to take advantage of the sound = just another type of wave in air thing to turn it into a spell that can cause arbitrarily powerful explosions.

It's just lazy writing/editing and doesn't give me confidence in the edition. They could easily have fixed it by limiting it to the same volume as the voice effect (three times the volume of a human voice). There's also a druid cantrip from the playtest that could move an object of any size 25 feet. That cantrip had a separate effect limited by size. It just baffles me they can miss these things within the very same spell.
"You had a tough day at the office. So you come home, make
yourself some dinner, smother your kids, pop in a movie, maybe
have a drink. It's fun, right? Wrong. Don't smother your kids."
- The More You Know

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2014, 04:11:14 PM »
At a certain point, you have to trust people to not do stupid thing with it. For instance, three times the volume of a human voice: a person speaking? A person shouting? Any human? It's pretty easy to get very loud. And I don't think there are many people who'd enjoy sifting through the text of a cantrip full of highly specific numerical restrictions. It's a single cantrip. The sound level restriction is hardly the biggest concern in existence.

Offline Childe

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 485
  • Even forever must end, I think. ...
    • View Profile
    • Legend RPG, Rule of Cool Gaming
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2014, 04:14:32 PM »
Except even if you take a person shouting, 3x is nothing.

And the fact they include volume limits (or size limits in the druid cantrip) for one ability but not the other is just bad inconsistency. That's my issue. It doesn't give me any confidence in their product (5e) as a whole given the D&D product line's past issues with inconsistency.
"You had a tough day at the office. So you come home, make
yourself some dinner, smother your kids, pop in a movie, maybe
have a drink. It's fun, right? Wrong. Don't smother your kids."
- The More You Know

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2014, 04:22:32 PM »
A person can shout above 80 dB. x2 loudness is over 90 dB. x3 is somewhere in the murky scale there as I cannot be bothered to get a calculator or use google to look it up. >85 dB is enough to cause hearing damage. So, x3 person loudness IS dangerous. Take me and you're probably over 100dB because I get far, far too loud.

And this is why I like locking real physics in a distant, distant box around games.

Offline Childe

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 485
  • Even forever must end, I think. ...
    • View Profile
    • Legend RPG, Rule of Cool Gaming
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2014, 04:32:29 PM »
A person can shout above 80 dB. x2 loudness is over 90 dB. x3 is somewhere in the murky scale there as I cannot be bothered to get a calculator or use google to look it up. >85 dB is enough to cause hearing damage. So, x3 person loudness IS dangerous. Take me and you're probably over 100dB because I get far, far too loud.

And this is why I like locking real physics in a distant, distant box around games.
85 dB causes permanent hearing damage only if it's sustained over time (several hours). x3 is +15.58 dB, I believe.

Instantaneous permanent damage doesn't kick in until over 180 dB iirc.
"You had a tough day at the office. So you come home, make
yourself some dinner, smother your kids, pop in a movie, maybe
have a drink. It's fun, right? Wrong. Don't smother your kids."
- The More You Know

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2014, 04:37:27 PM »
A person can shout above 80 dB. x2 loudness is over 90 dB. x3 is somewhere in the murky scale there as I cannot be bothered to get a calculator or use google to look it up. >85 dB is enough to cause hearing damage. So, x3 person loudness IS dangerous. Take me and you're probably over 100dB because I get far, far too loud.

And this is why I like locking real physics in a distant, distant box around games.
85 dB causes permanent hearing damage only if it's sustained over time (several hours). x3 is +15.58 dB, I believe.

Instantaneous permanent damage doesn't kick in until over 180 dB iirc.

Seeing as I've seen 150dB cited for spontaneous eardrum rupture, I think you're a bit high. Especially as that's 100,000 times more (in pressure terms) than being less than 100m from a jet engine at take off, with no hearing protection.

Some government chart.

Offline Agita

  • He Who Lurks
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2705
  • *stare*
    • View Profile
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2014, 04:41:53 PM »
Having given the rules a read yesterday, it looks functional enough. I like several of the things I've done, and the advantage mechanic may go some way toward mitigating the huge swing of the d20. Current assessment: Neutral to cautiously optimistic, with a big "we don't have the full rules yet" caveat. The references to +number weapons still being a thing make me nervous about the handling of gear and the general basic integrity of the system's math, but we'll see. Venn, were magic items/wealth rules in the playtest and if so, how were they handled?

They were. Magic items are actually not a necessity for characters to keep up, and so far they haven't really caused my players to break anything. Anything higher than a +1 weapon/armor is essentially so rare that almost no one has them. Usually, things with more magic than that moreso have extra properties, like a +1 flaming sword. Magic items tend to do other things, like slippers of spider climbing. The worst offender is the insistence on returning the Belt of Giant Strength and Gauntlets of Ogre Strength back to pre-3E, setting the character's strength to a predetermined score. I've taken to houseruling that the effective use of that is limited. If everyone assumed they could get their hands on one or the other, they'd all dump their strength for a few levels until they could get one. It's the one thing so far I've particularly disliked. Most of my players are cool enough not to all say, "I go looking for a belt of Giant Strength."

Magic Items, like a lot of things in 5E, are treated almost like another optional rule. You can disallow them if you like, and it won't mess anything up. As the DM, your job will be to decide how much magic wealth you want to give your players, and what items.

What makes this easier is a list of rarity, and what level players can generally expect to find items of that rarity. You could scale it back as much as you want, as it's just a general rule.
So there's no such thing as WBL or anything like that? That puts me a bit at ease.
How did monster stats stack up, if you had those? A big part of the problem in 3.5 was the monster statblocks assuming you had access to the bonuses made available by WBL. If magic items are treated like an optional rule, presumably they won't.
Please send private messages regarding board matters to Forum Staff instead.

Offline Childe

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 485
  • Even forever must end, I think. ...
    • View Profile
    • Legend RPG, Rule of Cool Gaming
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2014, 04:42:30 PM »
Might be misremembering. Either way, my point isn't really the exact decibels for any of this. Again, it's what it says about their consistency. Fool me once, and all that.
"You had a tough day at the office. So you come home, make
yourself some dinner, smother your kids, pop in a movie, maybe
have a drink. It's fun, right? Wrong. Don't smother your kids."
- The More You Know

Offline X-Codes

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2001
  • White, Fuzzy, Sniper Rifle.
    • View Profile
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2014, 04:46:36 PM »
Guys, this has gotten silly, mostly because Physics got involved before a sensible reading of the rules did.

"You create an instantaneous, harmless sensory effect, such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, faint musical notes, or an odd odor."

I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to make an instantaneous deadly sonic attack using a cantrip.

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2014, 04:48:56 PM »
Guys, this has gotten silly, mostly because Physics got involved before a sensible reading of the rules did.

"You create an instantaneous, harmless sensory effect, such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, faint musical notes, or an odd odor."

I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to make an instantaneous deadly sonic attack using a cantrip.

Contains the word harmless? All is well, prohibiting both the Tunguska event and noise above the pain threshold.

Offline Childe

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 485
  • Even forever must end, I think. ...
    • View Profile
    • Legend RPG, Rule of Cool Gaming
Re: D&D Next Basic Ruleset is out!
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2014, 04:51:46 PM »
Guys, this has gotten silly, mostly because Physics got involved before a sensible reading of the rules did.

"You create an instantaneous, harmless sensory effect, such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, faint musical notes, or an odd odor."

I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to make an instantaneous deadly sonic attack using a cantrip.

Someone completely misquoted the ability to me then. -_-

EDIT: Yeah, looking it up, literally none of the words they quoted are present, even in the other bullets.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 04:55:54 PM by Childe »
"You had a tough day at the office. So you come home, make
yourself some dinner, smother your kids, pop in a movie, maybe
have a drink. It's fun, right? Wrong. Don't smother your kids."
- The More You Know