Author Topic: Damage: Fighter archer vs. Swift Hunter  (Read 5979 times)

Offline bjj8383

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Damage: Fighter archer vs. Swift Hunter
« on: July 09, 2014, 09:07:31 PM »
A "Swift Hunter" is a Ranger/Scout built around the feat of the same name. In the Swift Hunter Handbook, (the one everyone links to, and the one that comes up first in Google," says:

"If you want your character to be able to shoot arrows and deal damage, the calculations have shown that a single classed fighter volley archer is actually better than a swift hunter."

I was wondering how on Earth that could be true.

I've spent all day reading various archery handbooks, and swift hunter handbooks, and forum posts, looking for the best feats and features, etc. The BEST I've come up with is that Fighters, thanks to their bonus feats, can easily have higher attack bonuses, can be more versatile, and can even have more attacks, but still PALE in comparison to the damage of the Swift Hunter.

I decided to compare the two at Level 10.

At Lvl 10, I gave my flaw-using human fighter: Weapon Focus (Longbow), Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Dead Eye, Precise Shot, Combat Reflexes, Reckless Offence, Weapon Specialization, Woodland Archer, Clustered Shot, Ranged Weapon Mastery, Snap Shot, Improved Snap Shot.

That leads to three shots per full attack, at 1d8+4 each. (I'm not including the Str or Dex portions of the damage here because the Swift Hunter will have the exact same thing so, they cancel out in comparison.) That's an average of 8 damage per shot, x3 shots = 24. Even IF you substitute a feat for the old Arrow Swarm ACF (add two ranged attacks at a -5 penalty,) that's 40 damage. Even if you include two attacks of opportunity in the round thanks to the Pathfinder feats, that's 56 damage.

Compare that to the S.H., (Rng2/Scout3/Rng5). At Lvl 10, he has: Weapon Focus (Longbow), Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot (Ranger bonus), Dead Eye, Precise Shot, Reckless Offence, Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish.

With his skirmish bonuses, that leads to 1d8+5d6+1 damage per shot, at three shots per full attack. That's 66 damage, average. Which is a lot more than the very generous 56 damage mentioned above.

EVEN when you take into account my fighter build having Clustered Shot, if he hit five times, doing 8 dmg each, and the enemy had 10DR, he'd dp 30 dmg. The S.H., without the feat, hitting three times, still does 36. Which is more.

So, I ask you, is there any way to make a PURE fighter that out-damages the Swift Hunter? (Again, I'm caring about pure damage potential here. Don't point out how the Scout needs to move in order to do extra damage, or how the fighter is more versatile, etc. I know these things.) Thanks!

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Damage: Fighter archer vs. Swift Hunter
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2014, 09:09:58 PM »
Did you take into account hit chances due to BAB? If you factor those in, it might even out

Offline linklord231

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Re: Damage: Fighter archer vs. Swift Hunter
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2014, 09:56:46 PM »
Swift Hunter only has one less BAB than pure fighter.
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Damage: Fighter archer vs. Swift Hunter
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2014, 09:58:01 PM »
Strange (the apparent result, I mean)

Offline Garryl

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Re: Damage: Fighter archer vs. Swift Hunter
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2014, 10:28:10 PM »
Since we're talking about within 30 feet for Skirmish to work at all, you're forgetting the +Dex to damage from Dead Eye and the +1 from Point Blank Shot. A magic longbow (by level 10, should be at least +2 equivalent, so +1 enhancement and +1d6 fire/cold/electricity/acid or the like) gets a better effect from the extra ranged attacks from Arrow Swarm and Snap Shot's AoOs (if any). The fighter should be dealing around 1d8+1d6+11 damage per shot, avg. 19, depending on Dex (this calculation used a Dex of 20), while the swift hunter would be at 1d8+6d6+7, avg. 32.5 (again, with 20 Dex). At 5 attacks for the fighter and 3 for the hunter, that's 95 DPR against 97.5. With Clustered Shots, a single point of DR puts the fighter ahead. The fighter also has the potential for even more through AoOs due to Snap Shot. The overall accuracy should be in the fighter's favor due to Woodland Archer over the course of 5+ attacks, despite the net -2 attack penalty compared to the hunter (+1 BAB, +2 Ranged Weapon Mastery, -5 Arrow Swarm).

How's your swift hunter getting a full attack and skirmish together?

Reckless Offense only applies to melee attack rolls. The hunter may wish to get Travel Devotion instead for swift action movement, although he'll need turning from somewhere to use it more than one fight per day. The fighter will sacrifice it for Arrow Swarm.

Did you take into account hit chances due to BAB? If you factor those in, it might even out

It's only a +3 difference between the 1 point of BAB lost over the mere 3 Scout levels and Ranged Weapon Mastery. With Arrow Swarm's -5 penalty, the fighter's actually down 2 points of attack modifier. Woodland Archer (Adjust for Range gives a cumulative +4 attack per miss earlier in the round) should more than make up for that over the course of the 5+ attacks per round.

Strange (the apparent result, I mean)

Only because so many factors have not been included.

Offline Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Damage: Fighter archer vs. Swift Hunter
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2014, 04:53:41 AM »
Hello,

I have a problem answering to your comment on my blog, since I'm currently at work and for some reason I can't login to my google account.

I'd like to point out that your swift hunter build with the feats you gave him (Weapon Focus (Longbow), Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot (Ranger bonus), Dead Eye, Precise Shot, Reckless Offence, Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish) can't activate skirmish on a full attack.

I know that you said that we shouldn't point out that he needs to move in order to get the extra damage, but since the ability works that way, well, it's not a random factor.

P.S. let's compare their damage output at 100ft.

Quote
"calculations have shown that a single classed fighter volley archer is actually better than a swift hunter" What planet do you live on? Even with all of a fighter's bonus feats, his damage pales in comparison to a swift hunter. He can be a lot more versatile, but with all other things being equal (i.e. taking into account classes and feats only, not items or stats, etc,), a pure Level 10 fighter with a longbow and best damage boosting feats will be doing 1d8+4 and three shots a round with rapid shot, avg 24 damage per round. A swift hunter at level 10 and proper skirmish feats will be doing avg 1d8+5d6 per shot, with three shots that's an average of 66 damage per round. 66 compared to 24. Even if you had your fighter take the old Arror Swarm ACF for two more attacks, that's still only 40dmg compared to 66. So I'd love to see your single-class fighter build that tops a swift hunter for damage.

There is no purpose comparing two builds without items or stats; any swift hunter would top a tier 1 theoretically optimized wizard build that can't cast spells.
Dictum Mortuum's Handbooks: My personal character optimization blog.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Damage: Fighter archer vs. Swift Hunter
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2014, 03:37:30 PM »


I'm currently at work ... and for some reason  :whistle ... I can't login to my google account.

Uh-oh, they're on to you.
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Offline Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Damage: Fighter archer vs. Swift Hunter
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2014, 04:17:13 PM »


I'm currently at work ... and for some reason  :whistle ... I can't login to my google account.

Uh-oh, they're on to you.

We're behind a vpn and weird things like that happen.
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Offline lans

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Re: Damage: Fighter archer vs. Swift Hunter
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2014, 04:46:43 AM »
Don't swift hunters have to use greater manyshot to get multiple shots off reliably?

Offline Gribel

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Re: Damage: Fighter archer vs. Swift Hunter
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2014, 06:38:17 AM »
Don't swift hunters have to use greater manyshot to get multiple shots off reliably?
Travel devotion, Sudden Leap or Hustle works too.
Oh, and stinking cloud has to be one of my favorate battlefield spells. Combined with sleet stor, you can shut a group down and keep them shut down, trapped inside a fart. When does that ever get old?

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Damage: Fighter archer vs. Swift Hunter
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2014, 10:37:35 PM »
* Since we're talking about within 30 feet for Skirmish to work at all
* At 5 attacks for the fighter and 3 for the hunter, that's 95 DPR against 97.5.
* The fighter also has the potential for even more through AoOs
* The overall accuracy should be in the fighter's favor due to Woodland Archer over the course of 5+ attacks.
* How's your swift hunter getting a full attack and skirmish together?
* Reckless Offense only applies to melee attack rolls.
Only because so many factors have not been included.
Pretty much a gist of my thought process when I seen the thread a few weeks ago, laughed, then promptly closed the tab. As is, the Fighter deals minimally four times the damage before AoOs are factored and that's with the attack chances and criticals being ignored. *shrugs*

Some people can take data clear out of range and still see the answer they want.