Author Topic: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?  (Read 20119 times)

Offline ImperatorK

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What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« on: November 20, 2011, 01:57:29 PM »
Barbarian - has power, but lacks significant versatility. Would gestalting him with Ranger increase his tier to 3?
Ranger - versatile, but not much raw power. Would gestalting him with Scout increase the tier?
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Offline X-Codes

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2011, 02:15:01 PM »
I'm going to shamelessly plug my houserules here.  I've already given the Ranger class a once-over, and I've just thought of some ideas for Barbarians, Warlocks, and Dragonfire Shamans.

Offline Seerow

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2011, 02:21:51 PM »
Barbarian - has power, but lacks significant versatility. Would gestalting him with Ranger increase his tier to 3?
Ranger - versatile, but not much raw power. Would gestalting him with Scout increase the tier?

Give the ranger the variant that increases his spells per day from dragon magazine for free, and he's probably good as is. If not, Wildshape variant Ranger and Swift Hunter are both strong options. The base ranger is very meh, but there are a lot of good ranger ACFs that easily bring it up to tier 3 without needing much if any homebrew.

As for Barbarian, giving it a ranger gestalt would probably help, but I wouldn't go that route. A barbarian casting spells as a part of its base class just doesn't sit well with me, and without those spells all you're gaining is the combat style and a couple extra skills. Easiest way to give some extra versatility would be a maneuver progression, give it some maneuvers from Tiger Claw and Iron Heart, maybe Stone Dragon, and you're set.

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2011, 02:29:59 PM »
Barbarian - has power, but lacks significant versatility. Would gestalting him with Ranger increase his tier to 3?
Ranger - versatile, but not much raw power. Would gestalting him with Scout increase the tier?

Give the ranger the variant that increases his spells per day from dragon magazine for free, and he's probably good as is. If not, Wildshape variant Ranger and Swift Hunter are both strong options. The base ranger is very meh, but there are a lot of good ranger ACFs that easily bring it up to tier 3 without needing much if any homebrew.

As for Barbarian, giving it a ranger gestalt would probably help, but I wouldn't go that route. A barbarian casting spells as a part of its base class just doesn't sit well with me, and without those spells all you're gaining is the combat style and a couple extra skills. Easiest way to give some extra versatility would be a maneuver progression, give it some maneuvers from Tiger Claw and Iron Heart, maybe Stone Dragon, and you're set.

Agreed; adding maneuvers to the base martial classes works really well for shoring up their versatility, even if it's only off of one list.  For Ranger, I also have their class level = druid level for animal companion purposes, so a wildshape ranger with a full animal companion ends up being really potent, even with limited spellcasting.

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2011, 02:44:59 PM »
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Give the ranger the variant that increases his spells per day from dragon magazine for free, and he's probably good as is.
Maybe, but then he will be more about spells. I personally would take away his spellcasting entirely, but am not sure if it wouldn't drop him a tier. Probably yes and thats counterproductive for this discussion.

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Wildshape variant Ranger and Swift Hunter are both strong options.
Wildshape variant Ranger is too much a change, because then the Ranger would be primarily a wildshaper and not a Ranger. I'd rather have him be a proper mundane.

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Easiest way to give some extra versatility would be a maneuver progression, give it some maneuvers from Tiger Claw and Iron Heart, maybe Stone Dragon, and you're set.
I don't like tacking maneuvers on everything. Martial adepts are supposed to be something special.
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Offline InnaBinder

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2011, 02:56:45 PM »
Something I've often considered is swapping Animal Companion progressions for Druid and Ranger, slightly nerfing the Druid and buffing up the Ranger.  I'm not sure the change would be sufficient to increase Ranger to tier 3 unless the choice of AC is truly remarkable, though.
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2011, 03:07:37 PM »
(Good) Spells, powers, and maneuvers are usually the main reason T3 and above are where they are.  Wild Shape also tends to make a class more powerful as can be seen with the Wild shape Ranger.

I did find a likely T3 fighter redo, but it's rather long.  http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140278  At the high levels it can basically auto-kill stuff.  It has to be this way to actually have power.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 03:41:54 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline veekie

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2011, 03:52:20 PM »
Yeah, you basically need something as versatile as spellcasting proper to transition into T3. Either access to spell-like effects(ToB stuff for example, but also the limited use spell effects), lesser spells(psywar, duskblade), stuff that emulates one of the major power spell chains(wildshape essentially replicates polymorph, while telekinetics, summoning, easy teleporting, etc, make an easy anchor for such a class.) or a restricted variant of a high tier effect.

For Ranger(not all of them at once of course, just the options):
-Up spell access to 6ths - Emphasis on the ranger as the nature warrior. The spells do all the heavy lifting though.
-Full Animal Companion or a 'zoo' option with multiple companions - Augment an extant feature back to full glory. A full companion bolsters the ranger's combat ability, trusting to skills and what little spells to keep him relevant.
-Wild Shape - Easy and flavor appropriate approach, if actually turning into animals bothers you, then make use of partial transforms(you can take the shapeshift druid ACF and refluff it for example) so they emulate these aspects of nature. Comes with senses, mobility, disguises, stuff that gels with the ranger's extant traits.
-Manuevers - Focus on the fighting styles.

Barbarians:
-Rage Powers - Bonus magical effects that kick in while raging? Supernatural feats of strength, speed and endurance all fit easily.
-Manuevers - Again, this works for anything martial.
-Superstitions - Make use of the more mythic barbarian myths, paint symbols of invulnerability etc. Straight out passive or triggered magical effects.

Rogue:
-More sneak rogue abilities - Make use of surprise, concealment, opportunities, traps and misdirection. Built in access to sneak essentials like Disguise Self, Nondetection, Darkstalker, Hide In Plain Sight etc. Also more combat applications of skills. Look up trickster myths for good staples.
-UMD abuser - Give the rogue a floating 'acquisition pool' for up to a particular value of mundane or expendable random stuff looted. Pull out wands, potions etc as needed, but strictly limited in availability.
-Manuevers - Yet again, this works for anything vaguely martial.
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Offline Mooncrow

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2011, 04:01:21 PM »
Rogue:
-More sneak rogue abilities - Make use of surprise, concealment, opportunities, traps and misdirection. Built in access to sneak essentials like Disguise Self, Nondetection, Darkstalker, Hide In Plain Sight etc. Also more combat applications of skills. Look up trickster myths for good staples.
-UMD abuser - Give the rogue a floating 'acquisition pool' for up to a particular value of mundane or expendable random stuff looted. Pull out wands, potions etc as needed, but strictly limited in availability.
-Manuevers - Yet again, this works for anything vaguely martial.

Adding in class abilities to bypass SA immune mobs would be a good step as well.  It's so irritating that it all depends on spells. 

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2011, 04:04:38 PM »
Well, SA immune monsters can be worked around a bit with Penetrating Strike.  I don't think the Ambush feats could be used effectively with that, but I'd have to look at them again to be certain.

Offline Seerow

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2011, 07:49:36 PM »
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Give the ranger the variant that increases his spells per day from dragon magazine for free, and he's probably good as is.
Maybe, but then he will be more about spells. I personally would take away his spellcasting entirely, but am not sure if it wouldn't drop him a tier. Probably yes and thats counterproductive for this discussion.

Yes, dropping spells altogether would drop the ranger a fair bit. Rangers have a great spell list, including spells unique to them. Ignoring this because you don't like spells would be like trying to do a non-casting Duskblade. They are the Nature Warrior in the same way that a Duskblade is the Arcane Warrior and Paladin is the Divine Warrior.  If you want a non-casting guy with a bow and tracking, you can make a Fighter do that.

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Wildshape variant Ranger and Swift Hunter are both strong options.
Wildshape variant Ranger is too much a change, because then the Ranger would be primarily a wildshaper and not a Ranger. I'd rather have him be a proper mundane.

Well once again, making a Ranger a 'proper mundane' is making him not a ranger.  Now I personally do prefer the spellcasting variant to wildshape, as the spellcasting is more subtle and allows augmenting more martially focused fighting styles than turning into a bear, but you should use one or the other.

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Easiest way to give some extra versatility would be a maneuver progression, give it some maneuvers from Tiger Claw and Iron Heart, maybe Stone Dragon, and you're set.
I don't like tacking maneuvers on everything. Martial adepts are supposed to be something special.

I agree adding maneuvers to everything is a copout. For example if working on Fighter I wouldn't recommend maneuvers because if you want a Fighter with Maneuvers you have a Warblade. But for a Barbarian there's not really a good Martial Adept counterpart, and they fit the class fine, so why not?

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2011, 07:59:01 PM »
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Yes, dropping spells altogether would drop the ranger a fair bit. Rangers have a great spell list, including spells unique to them. Ignoring this because you don't like spells would be like trying to do a non-casting Duskblade. They are the Nature Warrior in the same way that a Duskblade is the Arcane Warrior and Paladin is the Divine Warrior.
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Well once again, making a Ranger a 'proper mundane' is making him not a ranger.  Now I personally do prefer the spellcasting variant to wildshape, as the spellcasting is more subtle and allows augmenting more martially focused fighting styles than turning into a bear, but you should use one or the other.
Okay, I get your point. But I'm still not comfortable with giving him too much spellcasting or Wildshaping. Those are domains of the Druid. If you're going to make the Ranger a mini-Druid, why not just play the Druid instead?

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But for a Barbarian there's not really a good Martial Adept counterpart, and they fit the class fine, so why not?
Warblade or even Crusader can make a great barbarian with the right choice of maneuvers. Tiger Claw for beastly attacks? Stone Dragon for unnatural toughess?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 08:00:52 PM by ImperatorK »
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Offline Seerow

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2011, 08:13:32 PM »
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Okay, I get your point. But I'm still not comfortable with giving him too much spellcasting or Wildshaping. Those are domains of the Druid. If you're going to make the Ranger a mini-Druid, why not just play the Druid instead?

Well the main thing would be the Ranger's unique spells and full BAB. These combine to make it one of the most effective archers in the game, and it has some nice spells for melee as well iirc. The spellcasting variant I mentioned gives up to 5th level spells, and more spells per day (spells start out at level 1 or 2, and end at 4 or 5 per day per level).

I'd also not use Wildshape alongside the increased spellcasting, either one or the other. So it's not exactly a mini-druid, it's a combat focused nature warrior. Yes it will likely be weaker than a Druid, but since you're aiming for tier 3 that's a given regardless.

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Warblade or even Crusader can make a great barbarian with the right choice of maneuvers. Tiger Claw for beastly attacks? Stone Dragon for unnatural toughess?

For Crusader you'd be using nothing but stone dragon, because neither white raven or devoted spirit fits a barbarian at all. That would be pretty lame overall, and probably weaker than a straight barbarian. The Warblade has more maneuvers that are fitting, but still has access to a lot that don't, and its class features have a heavy focus on intelligence, hardly a typical Barbarian's choice of secondary stat.   And neither one has rage, or anything like it, so you have to at least dip into barbarian for that.

Barbarian is different enough from any of the current martial adepts to be worth revisting as a martial adept class.

Offline veekie

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2011, 11:32:26 PM »
Rogue:
-More sneak rogue abilities - Make use of surprise, concealment, opportunities, traps and misdirection. Built in access to sneak essentials like Disguise Self, Nondetection, Darkstalker, Hide In Plain Sight etc. Also more combat applications of skills. Look up trickster myths for good staples.
-UMD abuser - Give the rogue a floating 'acquisition pool' for up to a particular value of mundane or expendable random stuff looted. Pull out wands, potions etc as needed, but strictly limited in availability.
-Manuevers - Yet again, this works for anything vaguely martial.

Adding in class abilities to bypass SA immune mobs would be a good step as well.  It's so irritating that it all depends on spells. 
Either that, or alternative approaches. PF had greatly reduced the array of SA immunes(basically it was down to things that are completely homogeneous like oozes, incorporeals(unless you have ghost touch) and elementals). I figure some trickery-based stuff should give them something to do even if they can't hurt it directly. Loki, Coyote, Kitsune, etc were rarely slowed much by things that were completely invulnerable to them after all. Fight dirty.
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Offline JaronK

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2011, 11:37:58 PM »
Barbarian - has power, but lacks significant versatility. Would gestalting him with Ranger increase his tier to 3?

I'd certainly imagine so.  I would prefer the option of not giving him casting and instead giving him Tiger Claw maneuvers.  Just feels better to me.

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Ranger - versatile, but not much raw power. Would gestalting him with Scout increase the tier?

Probably should, though I'm not a fan of damage that can be negated in so many ways.

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Offline snakeman830

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2011, 12:57:02 PM »
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Warblade or even Crusader can make a great barbarian with the right choice of maneuvers. Tiger Claw for beastly attacks? Stone Dragon for unnatural toughess?

For Crusader you'd be using nothing but stone dragon, because neither white raven or devoted spirit fits a barbarian at all.
This I would argue against.  I built a "barbarian" that was a Devoted Spirit-focused Crusader.  He just had a more primal feel where each strike fueled him, generating the legendary durability with far more endurance than the standard Barbarian.  If you treat all the healing manuvers as invigorating instead of actually healing, this works exceedingly well.  Immortal Fortitude is a "duh" Barbarian stance.

White Raven would be more like the viking leader-style barbarian.  A fierce warrior in his own right, but his men will follow him to the death and beyond.
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Offline Empirate

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2012, 09:36:09 AM »
For Barbarian, I'd just take a long, hard look at the Runescarred Berserker PrC, then rewrite it into a base class. Those runescars go a long way, and the fluff is pure awesome, too! Getting rid of the more ridiculous class features like trap sense, and upping those that were overestimated by the designers like DR, is a given.

I agree on Ranger variants providing enough fuel for going up a tier. They don't need that much help. For the base class, though, expanding on the Combat Style and giving some really tangible bonuses (instead of just bonus feats usable with restrictions) when using the chosen style would be nice. Maneuvers seem like the obvious answer, but taking a page from the style-focused PrCs (Peerless Archer, Deepwood Sniper etc. for archery; Tempest etc. for TWF) and including them in the base class might also be good. Offering an equivalent of Battle Blessing for Rangers would be a nice touch where spellcasting is concerned.

Scout... needs magic, plain and simple. Most of their better class features are just the (Ex) version of stuff the casters got five levels ago. I'd try and make them partial casters of some sort, with a focus on divination and stealth-enhancing magic (they're scouts, after all), but with a few odd options mixed in, like some teleportation, and some self-buffs.

Warlock is almost good, except they simply get too few invocations, and eldritch blast gets a bit short-changed. The way it is, they lack versatility, and a little bit of power. First of all, fix blast damage progression to increase damage every odd level. How about adding on a separate progression for blast shapes and eldritch essences, like "choose one blast shape or one eldritch essence at 1st level, and at each level divisible by 3"? Then, add slightly faster maneuver progression so the Warlock ends up with, like, 15 maneuvers plus his 7 blast maneuvers.
The chassis could do with some improvement, as well. Increasing skills to 4+Int/level, and increasing HD to d8 would make me happy. These are minor tweaks, though, and don't decide a class's tier.

Rogue needs more and earlier access to rogue talents, and they need some more worthwhile rogue talents. This could be achieved by granting a martial stance (not maneuvers) progression of some kind, and upping the oomph of existing talents. Mettle, re-rolls and Abrupt Jaunt-like stuff should be the yardsticks for defensive talents. Adding more and powerful status effects with successful sneak attacks is the way to go for offensive talents. Some utility talents would be much appreciated, as well, like Hide in Plain Sight, Tremorsense/Scent/Blindsense, or at-will Identify. Also, getting rid of the sneak attack limitations would go a long way to increase the Rogue's pure power. We all love to sneak attack stuff, but roughly a third of all monsters being immune, plus mere concealment shutting it down, plus range being a problem (with a squishy chassis), PLUS needing to flank/hit flat-footed is just too much, too often.

Warmage... just needs some tweaks to the spell list, really. More utility, more actual battlefield control (for a Warmage!), more magical defense, and they're on par with the Beguiler. Improving the chassis would as always be desirable (better BAB, maybe, for a fucking WARmage...).

Hexblades are just watered-down Duskblades. You could just play a Duskblade and call it a Hexblade. But in order to provide the class with something unique AND make it stronger, I'd say get rid of the curses/day limitation and make curses inflict actual status effects (sickened, nauseated, blinded, shaken etc.). Also, why not give these guys an Improved Familiar from the get-go, and make that better over time? Should make for an interesting class.


Offline RobbyPants

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2012, 09:51:16 AM »
Warlock is almost good, except they simply get too few invocations, and eldritch blast gets a bit short-changed. The way it is, they lack versatility, and a little bit of power. First of all, fix blast damage progression to increase damage every odd level. How about adding on a separate progression for blast shapes and eldritch essences, like "choose one blast shape or one eldritch essence at 1st level, and at each level divisible by 3"? Then, add slightly faster maneuver progression so the Warlock ends up with, like, 15 maneuvers plus his 7 blast maneuvers.
The chassis could do with some improvement, as well. Increasing skills to 4+Int/level, and increasing HD to d8 would make me happy. These are minor tweaks, though, and don't decide a class's tier.
I've done something similar. The basics are:
  • Start with 2 invocations known.
  • Gain one invocation every level thereafter.
  • Eldritch Blast deals 1d6 damage every level not divisible by 3 (14d6 at 20th level).
  • Every level divisible by three, you gain a free Blast Shape or Eldritch Essence invocation.
  • I wrote up some new invocations (particularly blast shapes, but some others, too).
Rogue needs more and earlier access to rogue talents, and they need some more worthwhile rogue talents.
This is also something I'm working on. They get some points to spend per encounter, typically as a swift action. Most of these tend to increase their maneuverability or make it easier to score Sneak Attacks (can sneak attack crit-immune for one round, can simply declare one attack to meet the "denied Dex to AC" requirement, etc...).


I think I'm going to have to start my class thread, soon. :D
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Offline Ithamar

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2012, 12:16:33 PM »
If you're going to gestalt the Barbarian with anything, I'd say Scout would be better than Ranger.  More skill points, skirmish goes well with pounce, bonus feats to let it be a little useful outside of combat with tracking and whatnot.  Plus it keeps the magic away from the Barbarian.  Is it T3 though?   :-\

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2012, 12:32:11 PM »
If you're going to gestalt the Barbarian with anything, I'd say Scout would be better than Ranger.  More skill points, skirmish goes well with pounce, bonus feats to let it be a little useful outside of combat with tracking and whatnot.  Plus it keeps the magic away from the Barbarian.  Is it T3 though?   :-\
But then Barbarian would be better at skills than Ranger and that's not the point. Besides, I already took another step with this: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3236.msg40643#msg40643
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