Author Topic: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?  (Read 20114 times)

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2012, 04:03:47 PM »
Psi Rogue with normal Recharge
Divine Mind with early Recharge
Soulknife // Psi Rogue
Divine Mind // Psi Rogue

Wilder near T.O.-ish early / PrC  less than 7/10
... with judicious balancing.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2012, 05:52:58 PM »
More thoughts on the Ranger:

Minor changes to the it would be getting both combat styles and as already mentioned a full progression animal companion.  Another spell level or two would obviously make it T3.

Improving Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain would be useful.  On the FE side of things, the damage boost needs to be higher to really be effective.  Instead of 2 per FE, make it 5.  More could be achieved by granting bonus feats like Favored Power Attack or allowing criticals to always work against favored enemies, even if they're normally immune.

On the Favored Terrain side of things, just fold in a few Horizon Walker features and it's good to go.  The PrC is essentially made for Rangers after all.

Offline CaptRory

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 541
  • Could Get Lost in a Straight Hallway
    • View Profile
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2012, 06:29:18 PM »
If you eliminated the need to prepare spells ahead of time with rangers (and probably paladins and other melee hybrids) it would go a long way to making their magic a lot more effective without increasing the actual strength or variety of their spells. They don't really use metamagic feats (that I'm aware of) so not preparing them ahead of time doesn't seem like a big hit to take in order to use the spell they need when they need it even if it wasn't prepared first.

Offline JohnnyMayHymn

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 762
  • Former Lord of the Kitchen Sink
    • View Profile
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2012, 01:11:41 AM »
Multiple Gestalt everything Tier 4 and below, now you have a very respectable Tier 3 class... :smirk
The Emperor
Can you find the Wumpus?

Offline Balmas

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2012, 02:09:19 AM »
My thought for rogues would be to give them the ability to critical on things normally immune to criticals.  That alone would remove a lot of the problems with sneak attack.  If he were to gain spells, I would argue for drawing from the assassin list.
"Now hold on a second!  Eternal chaos comes with chocolate rain, you guys! Chocolate rain!" ~Pinkie Pie

My Monster Manual lies to me:  it states that a pegasus is white or occasionally brown when everyone knows that pegasi ought to be blue with rainbow stripes.

Offline CaptRory

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 541
  • Could Get Lost in a Straight Hallway
    • View Profile
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2012, 02:57:50 AM »
I never thought that was quite fair to rogues. "Yeah! You do extra damage in certain circumstances! Oh! But most of the guys you really need to do extra damage to are completely immune. And heaven help you if its an undead campaign."

Maybe just do away with immune to criticals/sneak attacks altogether. It only hurts the classes that actually smack things around. It's like a big wet blanket thrown over every physical combat character.

Offline Rejakor

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2012, 06:07:54 AM »
The Ranger
Well hello there, stranger, what's a big fancy city man like you doing in this here sleepy litt'l town?



That slow-mouthed but sharp-eyed cowpoke.  The scruffy looking man with the hygiene problem who could track a beaver through a lake.  That dervish of death and destruction clad only in a thin cloth.  Ranger has always been the thinking man's path to the true ferocity of our natural selves, where druid is the mystic's path to the natural mysteries, and barbarian is the unthinking rage of the beast itself.  Always a somewhat awkward middle child, the ranger has a mystique all his own, and feels no need to be beholden either to brute strength or veneration of the mysteries of nature - he seeks only to understand them, and bend them to victory.

THE RANGER

Skills:  All except UMD, decipher script, gather info, bluff, open lock, forgery, kn: anything but nature and local, appraise
Skill points: 8+INT per level

BAB: Good

Fortitude: Good
Reflex: Good
Will: Bad

HD:  D10

1: Bred to the Saddle, Master of Ranged Weaponry, Travelling Step, Hidden in Nature's Mysteries, Track Anything
2: Empathic By Demand, Trail the Unseen, Fight by the Stars, Shift into Obscurity
3: I Fight Bears For A Living, Is That Supposed To Impress Me, The Forest Is My Home, Master of Melee Weaponry, Really Track Anything
4: Timed Shot, Defensive Roll, Every Arrow Has A Destiny, Swift Hunter
5: I Know Your Weakpoint, Iron Rain, Defensive Sweep, Nose to the Wind
6: Instincts of the Beast, Combat Tricks, Herb Lore

Special:  Even if not specifically stated, all ranger abilities only function in light or no armour (this includes Mithril Medium Armour, i.e. it doesn't count as light for the purposes of this ability), and if the ranger dons medium or heavy armour, his ranger abilities do not work until he takes it off.

Bred to the Saddle:  The Ranger gets the affects of the Mounted Combat feat (but not the feat itself), never falls from his mount except by choice, gets +10 to Ride checks to perform riding tricks (see Complt. Scoundrel), and his mount is never affected by hostile morale or fear based effects.

Master of Ranged Weaponry:  The Ranger gets the affects of the Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot feats (but not the feats themselves).  At third level he counts as having the feats themselves.  In addition, he is automatically proficient with every ranged weapon, simple, martial, exotic or otherwise, that he may encounter.

Travelling Step:  The Ranger, and any amount of people he is traveling with up to his ranger level, may travel an additional distance while moving overland up to the ranger's level x distance normally traveled.

Hidden in Nature's Mysteries:  While standing on any naturally occurring terrain (not specifically handmade into something, i.e. on a plane of infinite worked grey stone, worked grey stone would count as naturally occurring terrain, a cavern transformed into living quarters using worked grey stone, however, would not count as natural terrain), the ranger may always make a hide check to hide as if he had concealment, instantly going prone or shimmying up a tree or some such. This counts as Hide In Plain Sight for any abilities, feats, or classes that require it.

Track Anything :  Rangers automatically have the Track feat and gain a bonus on their Survival skill roll to track equal to double their ranger level + int mod.  In addition, if something is normally untrackable, they may attempt to track it by adding 10 to the DC to track it.  Furthermore, they halve bonuses from time, rain and snow to the track DC.

They also can gain information about enemies from the tracks.  If they beat the DC by 5, they know the number of enemies and their respective size (small, Medium, Large etc).  If they beat the DC by 10, they know the number, the size, if any of them are wearing armour, and if any of them are heavily burdened, and how fast they are traveling.  If they beat the DC by 15, they know the number, size, armour, burden, races and relative military training (skilled soldiers, poor soldiers, not soldiers), and if there are any magic users in the group (presence only).  If they beat the DC by 20, they receive knowledge of all the rest and the specific classes of the enemies involved.  If they beat the DC by 30, they know the relative HD of the enemies (1-5 weak/average, 5-10 strong, 10-15 really strong, 15-20 archmages/legendary warriors, 21+ gods/godlike beings).

Tracking is ALWAYS a free mental action for rangers, even in combat, as long as they can see.  This means that they can explicitly know what square an enemy is if it leaves tracks, even if it is invisible.

Rangers are not trackable by ordinary means, unless the tracker is a ranger, in which case the enemy ranger may only track the ranger if the enemy ranger has more levels than the ranger in the Ranger class.

A Ranger may obscure the tracks of the party by rolling a survival roll and adding normal bonuses he would add when tracking.  The resulting number is then halved, and added to the DC of anyone else making survival rolls to attempt to track.  As this is a bonus to the DC, the bonus stacking rules apply (only the highest result from any number of rangers obscuring tracks will actually apply).

A Ranger can track someone he can see even if that person hasn't moved in a while(such as a guardian statue or someone asleep) (for the purposes of garnering information about them).  Although if they haven't moved in a long time the +1/day DC might add up to be impossible even with the halving the ranger gets.

Empathic By Demand:  Rangers may talk to animals as if by a Speak With Animals spell, however animals still have their usual intelligence so may not be particularly useful to the ranger.  He may make diplomacy, bluff, and gather information checks as normal, adjusted by the DM to account that animals have very low int.  In addition, animals that are not enraged usually start as Neutral to the ranger, not hostile or unfriendly, and will preferentially target others instead of the ranger even if enraged or berserking.

Trail the Unseen:  The ranger may now attack squares holding invisible enemies with only a 20% miss chance.  In addition, he can track incorporeal or ethereal enemies through the material plane.

Fight by the Stars:  The ranger gains both low light vision and 60' darkvision.  This explicitly allows him to track in darkness.

Shift into Obscurity:  A ranger may prepare an action to hide while hidden, and if they are spotted fade into obscurity, allowing a second Spot roll against their new Hide total.  The person who initially saw them sees something, possibly a movement, but has no knowledge that anyone is there or that it was anything other than their imagination/a bird/whatever. 

I Fight Bears For A Living, Is That Supposed To Impress Me:  Rangers gain a bonus equal to double their ranger level on saving throws against fear or morale effects, and gain a bonus equal to double their ranger level on the DC to intimidate them.

The Forest Is My Home:  The ranger may pick one kind of natural terrain, mountains/hills, forests, plains/prairie, swamps/bogs, oceans/lakes, [insert other campaign appropriate type, 'tundra' etc].  They gain a bonus equal to twice their ranger level + int mod on any skill check they roll in that terrain.  They may add their ranger level to damage in that terrain.

Master of Melee Weaponry:  The ranger is a master of melee weaponry.  They gain the effects of the Two Weapon Fighting feat, the Power Attack feat, the Combat Expertise feat, and the Two Weapon Defense Feat.  They also gain one maneuver from the Tiger Claw school of their choice.  In addition, they are proficient with all simple, martial, and exotic one handed and light weapons they may encounter.  At level 5, they get not just the effects but the actual feats themselves.  If they already have these feats, they may replace those ones at that time for feats they could have chosen at the time they chose the original feat (i.e. PHBII retraining rules).

Really Track Anything:  The Ranger can track anything, anything at all.  For +10 DC the ranger can track the path of a creature through water.  For +15 DC the ranger can track the path of a creature through the air.  For +20 DC, the ranger can track the path of a Teleport spell.  For +25 DC the ranger can track the path of a Planeshift spell (to the point of taking himself and 1 person per level to that plane).  For +30 DC the ranger can track down a spirit of the dead and force it to answer questions as if the ranger had cast a Speak with Dead spell.  For +35 DC, the ranger can track the path of a scrying spell.  For +40 DC, a ranger can track the gaze of someone looking at the party/at something.  For +50 DC, a ranger can track hostile intent, no matter the distance.

Timed Shot: As a full-round action you may make a Timed Shot.  This is an ordinary Full Attack except it must be targeted entirely at enemies who are flying, jumping, or falling.  The enemies count as flat-footed, and you do an additional amount of damage against these foes equal to Xd6 + int mod, where X is your ranger level/2, round up.

You may also make a Timed Shot against an enemy who is unaware of you (not the same as being hidden) and who is moving slowly(half speed or lower) in the same direction, or standing still.

Defensive Roll: When hit by an enemy who is using the Power Attack feat, or hit by a single attack that does half or more of the Ranger's hitpoint damage, the Ranger may choose to negate half the damage done and move 10' directly away from the source of the damage for each 5 damage negated this way.  If the Ranger encounters a wall or other solid obstacle that obstructs his movement, he bounces over it if it is 5' high or less, or slams into it if it is 6' or more.  For each 10' of movement the ranger cannot take, the ranger takes 1d6 damage.  The object also takes this damage, and the damage ignores hardness.

Every Arrow Has A Destiny:  The Ranger may fire a single arrow as full round action.  This arrow ignores miss chances, range penalties, and DR completely.  It is also an attack against Touch AC instead of regular AC.  This ability may be combined with Timed Shot.  At level 7, the ranger may instead fire his normal complement of arrows on a full attack as a part of this ability, but they only ignore miss chances.

Swift Hunter:  The Ranger adds +10' to all of his base movement speeds, and completely ignores difficult terrain.  He gains a saving throw against spells that restrict movement if they have none, and adds his ranger level to saving throws for spells that restrict movement that do allow saving throws.  The Ranger always counts as having a run up for the purposes of jumping.

I Know Your Weakpoint:  Against enemies who have DR, the Ranger always knows what bypasses the DR, even if it is spell-based.  If an enemy has a weakness, such as a vampire's weakness to running water, the Ranger knows it.  If a creature is vulnerable to fire or ice or electricity or acid, (Fire Vulnerability et al), the Ranger knows it.  If a creature has regeneration/X, the Ranger knows X.  Furthermore, if the item can be gathered from the environment nearby, the Ranger can pick it up as a free action(note: it must actually be within his reach, silver cutlery against werewolves etc, a burning log from the fire against wights on weathertop, etc).

Iron Rain:  As a full-round action, the ranger fires an arrow at everyone he can see.  The ranger fires one arrow at every enemy within ranger level + int mod x 10'.  If enemies are in the air or unaware, Timed Shot bonuses apply.

Defensive Sweep:  If a ranger is hit by an enemy attack, they may make a trip attack or disarm attack as an AoO.  These attacks may not trigger Improved Trip or similar feats.

Nose to the Wind: The ranger gains Scent as an Ex ability.  This includes smelling the presence of enemies.

Instincts of the Beast:  The Ranger may always act in the surprise round, and he always goes first.  After the surprise round he rolls initiative normally, but he adds his int mod as a untyped bonus.

Combat Tricks: If a foe power attacks the ranger, the ranger knows how to dodge to mitigate the power of the blow.  Extra damage from the power attack feat is not applied to the Ranger.  In addition, whenever a foe using the power attack feat misses the ranger, he may swirl his cloak (or other garment) and move 5' and make a hide check to hide.

Herb Lore:  The ranger can automatically identify any herb, or identify ailments that can be solved herbally by using Kn: Nature in place of Heal.  He may also make Kn: Nature checks in place of Heal checks to heal injuries or special wounds that would normally require a Heal check to heal.


That's how you make the ranger tier 3.  Needs a bit more damage in special circumstances.  Needs a better fix to melee other than free disarms and trips and negating PA. 

Later on it will need stuff like

Bow of the Moon and Stars:  The ranger's bow becomes an instrument of divine insight.  Each arrow the ranger fires may also do one point of either intelligence or charisma damage.

Blend With The World: The Ranger gets all the effects of freedom of movement as an EX ability, and also may move up to his speed through any solid object.

of course it's all leading to

One With Totality:  The ranger may negate up to his int mod per round the effects upon him of enemy spells, attacks, or effects that effect him in some way.  The ranger never needs to eat, sleep, dream, drink need warmth or cool ever again.  The ranger is immune to ability damage, drain, or penalty of any kind.  The ranger may planeshift once per round as a free action.  The ranger may greater teleport as an Ex effect that ignores effects that stop teleportation once per round as a free action.  The ranger grows six pairs of ethereal wings, one of feathers, one of fire, and one of thought.  He gains a fly speed of 300' perfect that ignores wind, and any other effects that might stop flight.  His fire wings count as a Rod of Absorption with no limit with charges that can be spent to replicate any spell the Ranger has seen cast in the last 3 rounds or that someone whose tracks he can see cast within the last 3 rounds.  His wings of thought replicate that ability with psionic power points.  His feather wings store damage points dealt to him over the last 3 rounds that he may spend on his own attacks at any time as a free action.  His type changes to outsider (native).  He becomes immune to mind-affecting abilities as an Ex, except those cast by a god with the travel or nature domains.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 06:12:12 AM by Rejakor »

Offline lans

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 252
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2012, 08:29:42 AM »
I kind of like the idea of giving the fighter all high saves, ~expert skills, letting him take skill and luck related feats with his bonus feats, and giving it an additional feat at every level a wizard would get another spell level. so at 6th and seventh he would get 3 bonus feats, 4th and 5th he would get 2. It may not be enough, but it gives an ability to utilize crappy but interesting feats.

I  was also thinking about giving classes different stat boosts. Monk gets 2 physical and 2 mental, Fighter would get 1 physical, 1 mental, 1 other, lets say warblade gets 1 physical and 1 mental, and the wizard would get the default
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 08:31:55 AM by lans »

Offline Rejakor

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2012, 09:52:23 AM »
Giving a class high bonii on attack rolls/whatever else is pointless.  That's vertical power.  It never makes it tier 3.  It needs horizontal power, i.e. versatility, in order to be a t3.  In order to keep up with the tier 3's and not just be in name only tier 3, it needs more than one attack kind (i.e. not just hp damage with PA and a greatsword), and some kind of defenses (immunities, counters, ability score regen, rerolls, resistances).

The fighter is weird because he is supposed to cover so many roles.  Easiest thing is to just add some resistances and immunities to make him more 'tanky' and give him more actions (I have in the past handed fighters 1 full round of actions per iterative attack, and it didn't even scratch the wizard supremacy) and 'tricks' like cutting off someone's movement, or using an immediate action to counter an enemy action(block a sword, disarm a spell component etc).  And then build in some combat styles/homebrew fighter feats to make the 'archer fighter' and the 'two swords fighter' and the 'charger fighter' and the 'defender lockdown fighter' etc etc.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2012, 05:35:10 PM »
Lurk // Warrior ... with PHB2 retraining on the Mind's Eye options.
Trapfinding + better combat early. 6-10 ditch the trapfinding,
around where the better BAB helps. Dithers a little in the 10-12 range.
13+ gets the good psi 4s. 15+ and a feat gets the 9th level power early.
And two 8s if you're so inclined.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2012, 05:57:34 PM »
r.a.i. Ardent with 8/10 or less PrC


Divine Mind / Thrallherd ... but only if the PrC also advanced all of the Divine Mind's abilities.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 06:10:39 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline lieronet

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 85
  • Rock You
    • View Profile
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2012, 03:12:41 AM »
I think we've all beaten around the bush long enough, and it's time to get to the real question here, really address the elephant in the room: how do we raise the Adept to T3?

EDIT but yeah 4 srs Warmage would benefit from a better spell list, and letting his expanded knowledge ability apply to any wizard spell would probably be a good idea, shore up holes even better. Also Warmage's edge needs to scale somehow, maybe something like int bonus*spell level? It would be probably 90 free damage on a level nine blast, but at that point does it even matter?

EDIT x2 COMBO also, concerning a hypothetical barbarian Martial Adept class: Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw schools would be obviously givens on him, and Iron Heart seems pretty natural as well. Problem is, it's the Warblade exclusive school, and it feels wrong somehow to give an exclusive school away. Anyone else's thoughts? Am I just being a huge softie?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 03:22:57 AM by lieronet »
What would you think if I sang out of tune?

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2012, 07:15:43 AM »
I'm against giving non-martial classes maneuvers in general. Warblade, Crusader and Swordsage are supposed to be special and I like it that way.
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline Rejakor

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2012, 08:02:10 AM »
It's incredibly easy to give mundanes abilities that scale to spell/maneuver power level.  People just seem unable to mentally link things they think of as 'mundane' to things they think of as 'impossible' i.e. 'fantastical' i.e. 'fantasy' i.e. 'DnD'.

Tracking doesn't just have to be following wet footprints on mud.  It can be getting into the head of the fleeing creature, seeing where it /will/ go, using that to dodge a sword thrust or at a glance determine the power level of an opponent.

High BAB shouldn't just mean more attacks on a full attack, it should mean more actions in general, and more attacks regardless of full attack or not.  High Fort/High HP should mean resistances and immunities and active defenses like rerolls, not just a tiny (+6 over 20 levels) bonus to a static roll.  That's like, 1/4 the bonus cleric spells alone can give you.  At level 5.


The point is, the strength of wizards/clerics etc should be utility and versatility - a quick prep time and they're off and rolling down some new track.

The strength of the other classes should be specialization - i.e. no matter how many spells a wizard prepares, he is never as good at roguing as a rogue.  He is never as good at rangering as a ranger.  And he is never as good at fighting as a fighter.

You can nerf the wizard to fuck so his options are a) magic missile b) magic missile some more (i.e. 4th ed approach), or you can make the mundanes actually good at their roles and just not give a fuck about 'realism'.  Yeah, people in real life can't block bullets with swords (although people have done this in the past, so sounds like angry nerd rage more than science to me), but this is a fantasy game about superhumans who can survive dropping from orbit.  No-one bats an eye when superman blocks a bullet with his eyeball.  Why then does Jim the 20th level fighter get the shaft?  His power level is supposed to be approximately the same.

Offline Keldar

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1032
  • What's this button do?
    • View Profile
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2012, 09:21:55 AM »
Jim the Fighters problem is mages get inclusive design, while warriors get exclusive design.  Mages are built to model every fantasy spell wielder possible, each ability/spell justified by pointing to a fantasy source that includes it.  Warriors are built by looking and finding what all fantasy warriors do and only including what all of them can do. 


Fighter as a class chassis is mostly fine, in theory.  The skill points are too low, and the skill list too narrow, but otherwise it looks ok.  The problem is feats suck.  They either do little, or give the ability to accomplish something that probably should have been a base option.  If feats are to be a Fighter's class abilities, then they need to be great.  There need to be feats that are honestly only appropriate for 17+ level play.  Right now none of them, even Weapon Supremacy (18 levels of Fighter prerequisite), would be that overpowering for First level.

Deal with that issue, and most of the low tier classes get to come along for the ride.

Offline lieronet

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 85
  • Rock You
    • View Profile
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2012, 11:49:06 AM »
I'm against giving non-martial classes maneuvers in general. Warblade, Crusader and Swordsage are supposed to be special and I like it that way.

I wasn't saying throw maneuvers on a Barbarian, I was referring to a previous post suggesting making an entirely new martial adept class based around the barb a bit. The three in Bo9S are based on the fighter, rogue and paladin, none of which are really similar to the barbarian, and it'd be interesting to see something like that. I grant you that the only barb class feature anyone cares about is rage, and that rage on a new martial adept class would probably just be barb with maneuvers, but I think it would still be worth pursuing.
What would you think if I sang out of tune?

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2012, 11:51:27 AM »
Warblade or Crusader can make a great Barb.
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline Rejakor

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2012, 12:45:11 PM »
I'd prefer to build abilities onto the fighter chassis than give the fighter bonus feats and make fighter-only feats that the fighter basically has to take.  The second route just seems clumsy.

Making incredibly powerful feats designed to let classes with no/poor class abilities (low tier classes) play catchup with the big boys with real class features (basically the only ones that exist are spells and maneuvers) is a bad idea, as the high tier classes can take feats too.  And if you make it so they specifically can't.. you might as well just rewrite the low tier classes, it's easier and will end up with more thematic characters rather than the same cherrypicked set of feats (leap attack, shock trooper et al).


The problem with just replacing all the melee classes with sublime way adepts is that the whole maneuver system was designed to portray a series of eastern style monk-warriors, not the dirty and brutal western Warrior archetype.  Furthermore it's a resource system, which I personally hate for melee types.  It recharges and whatnot, but the 'specific move' thing just doesn't jive well with western warrior fluff and thematically suits a different style of play and a different style of roleplay.


Stone Dragon Crusader or Blue Steel Warblade both make great barbarians, but only because the barbarian class sucks.  If it didn't, they'd be a /kind/ of barbarian.  An Earth Warrior Barbarian and a disciplined warrior barbarian (like conan) whereas the barbarian class would just be pure indomitability and a dervish of naturey destruction.

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2012, 12:56:31 PM »
Yeah. Other classes can take feats, so making feats more powerful doesn't solve things. But other classes are often feat starved, so giving the Fighter more feats isn't that stupid, you just have to have more feats worth taking (which doesn't mean powerful). You can whine about Pathfinder being sucky and I can agree that PF devs are kinda idiots, but at least they create more feats and some of them are useful and interesting, especially for my homebrew Fighter who has more than enough to spare.
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline X-Codes

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2001
  • White, Fuzzy, Sniper Rifle.
    • View Profile
Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2012, 02:02:08 PM »
The problem with just replacing all the melee classes with sublime way adepts is that the whole maneuver system was designed to portray a series of eastern style monk-warriors, not the dirty and brutal western Warrior archetype.  Furthermore it's a resource system, which I personally hate for melee types.  It recharges and whatnot, but the 'specific move' thing just doesn't jive well with western warrior fluff and thematically suits a different style of play and a different style of roleplay.
So what?  The archetypes are stupid, and, frankly, unrealistic on a really basic level in totally the opposite way as magic: it's less interesting and even, I'd say, less D&D.  Fact of the matter is that there was a master/apprentice system of learning swordsmanship in Europe just as there was in Japan, and different schools of thought about combat came about in Europe, just like in Japan.  Even if you look at the most basic of weapons to the "gritty western warrior" archetype, the greatsword, you'll note that there's not just a pointy end and a place to put your hands.  There's a grip on the blade, forward of the hilt, which is designed to make the weapon faster and more controlled in a scenario where that's necessary, or you can use the full length of the blade when you need the reach or are riding on horseback to deliver more powerful blows.  There's also a point to the blade, allowing it to be used as a stabbing weapon, and not just a giant, metal club with an edge.

Also, with the advent of full plate armor and the relative ineffectiveness of greatswords against such protection, different styles of wrestling and close-quarters combat emerged, since there was a demand to learn how to slip a short dagger between two interlocking plates and either dislodge the opponent's protection or kill him outright.  What's more, Knights weren't just trained killers, they were nobility!  They had to make social appearances without their armor on common, if not frequent occasions, and, as nobility, they had to be able to deal with assassination plots without the protection of their full plate, just as any other person of influence and power did.

Finally, to deal directly with your assertion, there were no Crusaders in East Asia.  Also, there were very few shields in Asia, and the warblade depicted right next to the class has both a shield and a curiously straight-looking sword for it to be a katana.  So yeah, while these classes could certainly be styled in a way to represent different sorts of monks, samurai, etc., they are absolutely not exclusive to those tropes.