Author Topic: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?  (Read 20116 times)

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2012, 02:10:29 PM »
It's just the whole Bo9S theme that makes people think about anime and wuxia when they look at Warblade, Crusader or Swordsage. But remember, those are all just names. In-game you can be whoever you like and your abilities can be called however you desire.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 02:12:09 PM by ImperatorK »
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Offline Rejakor

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2012, 02:14:52 PM »
You're misunderstanding me.

I was referring to the archetypes as a style of play/fluff, as opposed to the 'eastern people use technique, western people use hur hur manliness' grognard stupidity meme.  When your sword is catching on fire, even if you forget that you are using a maneuver/spell called 'desert wind double phoenix', it feels like you're playing some kind of gish.  Some kind of monkish thing.  Even if it's mechanically not dissimilar to the Fencing Style ability of the Art of War Fighter, you're still doing elemental damage, you're still spending a swift action to activate an ability that adds damage to your attacks, and it still feels different than an always on ability with a different effect and a different name.

Mechanics should support flavour, not be disassociated from it, and not the other way around.

Activating discreet attacks and defenses is different, thematically and practically, from a warrior who has all his skills available to him at all times, especially when so many of the attacks clearly have a magical component in their mechanics, even if you rip out all the fluff about it being a 'shadow' noose etc.

Also, it's immaterial to my point, but there were a lot of shields in asia, that's actually a misconception (although a lot of the time they were being carried by peasants).  And the Sohei and various orders of warrior-monks came pretty close to the crusader ideals (and even used a polearm, the weapon of choice for the lockdown crusader).  Not to mention the yojimbo, even, there was a specific order of yojimbo mercenaries who used a bare handed fighting style alongside a heavy iron shield, which sounds pretty crusaderish to me.

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2012, 02:17:29 PM »
Err... Supernatural maneuvers were a minority last time I checked.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 02:19:02 PM by ImperatorK »
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Offline Rejakor

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2012, 02:23:50 PM »
Spending actions to activate your 'toughness' is still a weird jolt if you're thinking of it as a not magical/martial arts thing.

Offline X-Codes

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2012, 02:27:20 PM »
Spending actions to activate your 'toughness' is still a weird jolt if you're thinking of it as a not magical/martial arts thing.
Dude, EVERYONE had martial arts training, not just asians!

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2012, 02:31:45 PM »
Spending actions to activate your 'toughness' is still a weird jolt if you're thinking of it as a not magical/martial arts thing.
Well, it's D&D. It's a game mechanic and not a simulation of real world. It's bound to have some abstract concepts in it.
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Offline Rejakor

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2012, 04:05:15 PM »
The game mechanics do inform the fluff, though, is the point I was making.  It's really possible to have two fluff-similar characters play and feel really different if they're statted out as a fighter or a warblade, and not just by competence, but by /how/ they achieve their results as well.

That's ignoring the metagame of attack rolls and whatnot being different, even.  But you do have to take into account the metagame because it affects the play experience.

You can bend fluff around mechanics and bend the results of how things are happening etc, but DnD is primarily a gamist system, the rules are closely tied to the game not just the narrative structure of the game, so the fluff works best if it's linked to mechanics suited to it.

Offline CaptRory

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2012, 04:08:33 PM »
Spending actions to activate your 'toughness' is still a weird jolt if you're thinking of it as a not magical/martial arts thing.
Dude, EVERYONE had martial arts training, not just asians!

Yes indeed. If you want to be technical/nitpicky about it, Martial Art = Art of War which would include things like shooting a gun, swinging a mace, fighting with a cane, etc. Not just unarmed or stereotypical martial arts stuff.

Western Society developed tons of martial arts many of which are being rediscovered today.

Offline Rejakor

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2012, 04:21:16 PM »
'popular western conception of eastern martial arts'

does that help

Offline snakeman830

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2012, 05:43:57 PM »
Even then, I say: Congrats, you described the Swordsage, the one EXPLICITLY magical warrior in the book.  Quit yer bitching about the Crusader and Warblade as being the same.

Yes, the maneuvers you were describing were Desert Wind and Shadow Hand respectively, both of which are Swordsage exclusive.
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Offline veekie

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2012, 06:13:46 PM »
So what?  The archetypes are stupid, and, frankly, unrealistic on a really basic level in totally the opposite way as magic: it's less interesting and even, I'd say, less D&D.  Fact of the matter is that there was a master/apprentice system of learning swordsmanship in Europe just as there was in Japan, and different schools of thought about combat came about in Europe, just like in Japan.  Even if you look at the most basic of weapons to the "gritty western warrior" archetype, the greatsword, you'll note that there's not just a pointy end and a place to put your hands.  There's a grip on the blade, forward of the hilt, which is designed to make the weapon faster and more controlled in a scenario where that's necessary, or you can use the full length of the blade when you need the reach or are riding on horseback to deliver more powerful blows.  There's also a point to the blade, allowing it to be used as a stabbing weapon, and not just a giant, metal club with an edge.

Also, with the advent of full plate armor and the relative ineffectiveness of greatswords against such protection, different styles of wrestling and close-quarters combat emerged, since there was a demand to learn how to slip a short dagger between two interlocking plates and either dislodge the opponent's protection or kill him outright.  What's more, Knights weren't just trained killers, they were nobility!  They had to make social appearances without their armor on common, if not frequent occasions, and, as nobility, they had to be able to deal with assassination plots without the protection of their full plate, just as any other person of influence and power did.
Very true, I think the issue is more that Western martial arts both gained and lost from having regular warfare, whereas Eastern martial arts had centuries of relative peace to develop on the Art aspect over the martial, incidentally making it culture to be preserved rather than practical skills. When a particular technique becomes less effective through changes in the 'metagame' of warfare, it and its masters are very often quickly obsoleted and discarded(because you die if you lose), with the result that early era western close combat has very few surviving sources backing it up. So media, and thus the public's opinion of close combat is formed from stage combat/street combat. Stage combat is of course the obvious, appearances and dramatics matter. Street combat is where you indeed do fight like the Fighter does, generally with a trick or two up your sleeve, relative low quality weapons and no armor to speak of resulting in swinging at each other until they go down for the most part.

Going further back to myths and legends, plenty of mythic heroes do things like even the Su maneuvers, up until well after the dominance of christianity(where such feats became limited to witchcraft or saints). Cutting off mountaintops, getting angry enough to boil water, etc. Of the nine disciplines, only Shadow Hand, as far as I'm aware, doesn't have a direct western mythic equivalent.

----

But, that isn't the matter when you're converting a Fighter to T3. You are more than looking at preserving the class's image, you need to preserve the play style and 'feel' as well, which means playing without resource management must be viable, and capabilities should be passive-oriented. You also need to add in capabilities outside of combat, a secondary or tertiary role which does not conflict overly with primary role requirements.
So:
Combat - Give them stances, ToB-style, but not necessarily taking from the same pool. These represent adaptability in combat, allowing them to adjust fighting styles in significant ways beyond changing the numbers on Power Attack and (theoretically)Combat Expertise.
Give them tactics, or special attack modes that extend basic techniques to the superhuman. They need not have usage limits, you could for example, simply give them some requirements that must be met in combat to use them. They should also be relatively few and general, as the appearance of complexity can disrupt the intended goal.
Between these, that should bring the raw combat capability to the necessary levels while keeping the sense of the class.

Social - One issue is the fighter tends to sit out diplomacy, the most dumped ability being charisma, and needing three or more stats to be decent makes that almost certain, especially when feat chains require further stats to qualify for. Throw on the limited class skills and it becomes a lost cause. 
Traditionally, the warrior archetype gets famous, along with developing authority and contacts. So you can snag some nobility-archetype matters. Let them have the "I know a guy" type abilities built in to invoke a relevant NPC in the area, or augment the diplomacy of others. Install titles of fame or infamy. Take Leadership, sans the cohort, and make them your contacts instead. The role here is not to take over the Face role(though it would be nice to be able to), but to be able to engage, however slightly.

Utility - Fighters are archetypical tacticians and watchmen, which they are of course, also kinda terrible at. Keen senses is very much a thing of warrior types, no matter the culture, and can be included, even if you need a 'battle sense' hack to have their augmented perception restricted to potential hazards. Tactics wise, they exercise experience in taking the shitty end of the stick, and need to be able to coordinate efforts, or otherwise apply groups to greater effect(perhaps implement group level 'stances' as Formations)

So would that all work while preserving the basic simplicity of actually using the class? Beats me, maybe I should give it a shot when I have time.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2012, 06:10:43 AM »
Utility - Fighters are archetypical tacticians and watchmen

No, they're not. Military history and fiction is filled with moments of "WTF were they thinking". We've had whole armies trying to charge trough mud fields against an enemy raining barrages of arrows on them. We've had the typical charges into walls of pointy sticks, we've seen generals simply paralyze and fail to give any orders at all, we've seen generals trying to be "honorable" and let the enemy recover, we've seen whole armies stoped simply because someone let the city's doors opened in a simplistic bluff. There's even the saying that in war the side who wins is the one who screws over themselves less.

Plus a ramble I've been holding for quite some time now, but in both reality and fiction fighters are not good sentries.How else can the spies and scouts sneak in and get their reports? How else can the villain/hero team infiltrate enemy territory? How else can the greeks simply get inside a giant wooden horse and the troyan guards drag them inside, oblivious to the muffled voices inside laughing at them? Whole armies of armored dudes with little if any stealth training sneaked passed under the noses of sentries since there's recorded history and legends. So yes, not having spot/listen  abilities actualy makes sense for them.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 06:16:48 AM by oslecamo »

Offline veekie

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2012, 09:55:31 AM »
That was 'what they should be' rather than 'what they are', since we're talking about moving them in tiers. They are supposed to be tacticians and guardians, they don't necessarily need to be great ones.
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2012, 11:01:02 AM »
Spies rarely sneak around if guards are present.  So far as the guards are concerned, the spy belongs there.

Guards and sentries may be good at Spot/Listen, but a combination of boredom and darkness (humans have really crappy night vision) allowed the majority of successful sneaking to be done.

As for the trojan horse, there still isn't any evidence that it actually happened.  Recall that the Illiad was part one of a mythical epic.
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Offline zugschef

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2012, 01:01:58 PM »
fighter is a fail class because it's a generic term. it's as if there was a class named "spellcaster" and "skillmonkey" in the phb. it's not even worth fixing.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2012, 01:02:43 PM »
Spies rarely sneak around if guards are present.  So far as the guards are concerned, the spy belongs there.

Guards and sentries may be good at Spot/Listen, but a combination of boredom and darkness (humans have really crappy night vision) allowed the majority of successful sneaking to be done.

As for the trojan horse, there still isn't any evidence that it actually happened.  Recall that the Illiad was part one of a mythical epic.

My point exactly. The guys who holded off the greatest greek demigods for ten years? Can't notice hundreds of enemies right in front of them just because they got a giant box. In both fiction and reality, you can bet the sneaking is going to be done under the guard's noses. And for the heck of it, here's a modern version in a smaller scale.

There's a good reason why there's a breach in security they say "get more guards", not "get better guards".
 
And not even the ToB classes themselves have spot as a class skill!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 01:06:22 PM by oslecamo »

Offline veekie

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2012, 02:03:40 PM »
However, to take the Fighter to T3, they still need their utilitarian purpose. Social alone isn't really the answer, since it just means they get to play at all when in social encounters, which get rather dull when you have to sit it out because you can only intimidate, and not effectively at that.

Gordian knot solutions are nice in theory, but they also damage the class 'image' by being basically magic with a sword when you get to the extreme.  They are also nonsimple to use for the same reason. A limited subset of these, particularly negating hostile actions or bypassing weaknesses can be still employed. Perhaps defense substitution, or even delaying debilitating conditions can be employed, as can mundane-based countermagic.

Perceptive ability, especially surprise negation(I've no issues with spies and thieves sneaking past the warrior, I've a bit more of one where the warrior consistently fails to react to something coming to kill his ass under any concealment) can fit in, with many fighting schools, past and present, emphasizing awareness of the combat. Likewise with detecting the signs of ambush.

Tactical and strategic ability varies a bit, but again, when you get to the upper ends of martial ability, it usually includes command capabilities as well. Not necessarily battlefield level command and its related aspects(supply lines, etc), but a simpler squad level command.

Remember, these only apply to the heroes, the mooks are largely Warriors, and sieges are won with superior fortifications, supplies, equipment, strategy and men. Many factors involved.
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Offline CaptRory

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2012, 10:07:10 PM »
I remember reading in one of the books that martial characters could, with the rules of the book, use their attack bonus for certain skills or certain uses of certain skills. If I recall, one of them was a subset of Perform which allowed them to do a weapon routine.

Something that allowed martial classes to make a broader use of the martial part might help considerably.

Offline X-Codes

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Re: What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?
« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2012, 10:27:14 PM »
^ Instantly made me think of the Final Fantasy 7 Juton Parade minigame.