Dragon PC races

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Wyrm Of War ... is still rather juicy.  Google:
site:brilliantgameologists.com "wyrm of war" -"print page"
... gets about 200 results.
("print page" links are sooo annoying ; as is firefox sometimes)


I'd be willing to bet that a Dragon can go Sublime Chord and
dump some of the improved spell access into Wyrm Of War stuff.

[Surreal]

There's also the funny clause somewhere (Draconomicon) where it states Dracon PCs much take racial HD after a certain amount of levels.

  ... I wanna see that !!
(i've no access)

This is quite the nerf for Dragonwrought Kobolds, eh ?
 

I think it was Draconomicon... or maybe Dragon Magic? Or Races of the Dragon? Bah I don't remember. I haven't got any books on me, but I'll try and remember to look it up later.

[Mister Lamp]

There's also the funny clause somewhere (Draconomicon) where it states Dracon PCs much take racial HD after a certain amount of levels.

  ... I wanna see that !!
(i've no access)

This is quite the nerf for Dragonwrought Kobolds, eh ?
 

I think it was Draconomicon... or maybe Dragon Magic? Or Races of the Dragon? Bah I don't remember. I haven't got any books on me, but I'll try and remember to look it up later.

Draconomicon, pg. 145ish. Every few years a True Dragon gains some LA and HD.

[TravelLog]

I'd be willing to bet that a Dragon can go Sublime Chord and dump some of the improved spell access into Wyrm Of War stuff.

Now that's something I'd like to see. Can't imagine a dragon singing well though.

[SorO_Lost]

Draconomicon, pg. 145ish. Every few years a True Dragon gains some LA and HD.

Speaking of, it doesn't highlight recasting spells at a lower level but...

Age Abuse
True Dragons gain numerous abilities based on their age. Size increases, more breath
weapon damage, and bonuses to their abilities scores are just the start of things.
Upon hitting the Young Adult stage they gain the Frightful Presence ability,
normally gain some form of Damage Reduction (typically DR 5/Magic) and Spell
Resistance and both improve later on. Dragons that have Innate Spellcasting further
enhance their ability to cast spells and also gain racial hit dice which in turn
gives bab/saves/feats.

Using a spell to temporally age your self can be used either as a combat boost or an
out of combat spell enhancer. For instance a two year old Steel Dragon with a caster
level of fourteen can cast River's Ravages aging him/her self twenty eight years
and into the Juvenile age category granting them enough HD (+9) and spellcasting(+6)
to have the Epic Spellcasting & Improved Spell Capacity feats for 14 rounds.
Even dragons geared for combat will love the additional hp/bab/saves/feats gained
from the extra HD.

River's Ravages (dragonlance, legends of the twins)
Age 2 years per caster level for 1 round per caster level.
Quick and easy. Weighes in at a 2nd level spell meaning really early access.

Bestow Curse (phb/srd, bovd)
Ages you into your next age category
Duration of permanent but doesn't stack with it's self. As a DM I'd penalize your XP gains as your ECL has "permanently" changed but your DM may not.

Greater Bestow Curse (spc, bovd)
Ages you into your next age category, again
Duration of "till you complete a miniquest" and stacks with the nongreater version since it's a different spell. Fair call to say you age your self two categories with it if not you age your self and your entire family. It's fun for the whole family.

Hasten The End (dragonlance, holy orders of the stars)
Bestows a negative level and ages you 10 years per round
The duration is concentration. Combine with either feats, skill tricks, shapechanging for extra actions or whatever else and you can access your Ancient Wrym stage outside, or even inside a well timed, battle.

[Mister Lamp]

Draconomicon, pg. 145ish. Every few years a True Dragon gains some LA and HD.

Speaking of, it doesn't highlight recasting spells at a lower level but...

Age Abuse
True Dragons gain numerous abilities based on their age. Size increases, more breath
weapon damage, and bonuses to their abilities scores are just the start of things.
Upon hitting the Young Adult stage they gain the Frightful Presence ability,
normally gain some form of Damage Reduction (typically DR 5/Magic) and Spell
Resistance and both improve later on. Dragons that have Innate Spellcasting further
enhance their ability to cast spells and also gain racial hit dice which in turn
gives bab/saves/feats.

Using a spell to temporally age your self can be used either as a combat boost or an
out of combat spell enhancer. For instance a two year old Steel Dragon with a caster
level of fourteen can cast River's Ravages aging him/her self twenty eight years
and into the Juvenile age category granting them enough HD (+9) and spellcasting(+6)
to have the Epic Spellcasting & Improved Spell Capacity feats for 14 rounds.
Even dragons geared for combat will love the additional hp/bab/saves/feats gained
from the extra HD.

River's Ravages (dragonlance, legends of the twins)
Age 2 years per caster level for 1 round per caster level.
Quick and easy. Weighes in at a 2nd level spell meaning really early access.

Bestow Curse (phb/srd, bovd)
Ages you into your next age category
Duration of permanent but doesn't stack with it's self. As a DM I'd penalize your XP gains as your ECL has "permanently" changed but your DM may not.

Greater Bestow Curse (spc, bovd)
Ages you into your next age category, again
Duration of "till you complete a miniquest" and stacks with the nongreater version since it's a different spell. Fair call to say you age your self two categories with it if not you age your self and your entire family. It's fun for the whole family.

Hasten The End (dragonlance, holy orders of the stars)
Bestows a negative level and ages you 10 years per round
The duration is concentration. Combine with either feats, skill tricks, shapechanging for extra actions or whatever else and you can access your Ancient Wrym stage outside, or even inside a well timed, battle.

Thank You kindly. Stored in a safe place until I'm ready to add it. /bow

[awaken_D_M_golem]

There's also the funny clause somewhere (Draconomicon) where it states Dracon PCs much take racial HD after a certain amount of levels.

  ... I wanna see that !!
(i've no access)

This is quite the nerf for Dragonwrought Kobolds, eh ?
 

I think it was Draconomicon... or maybe Dragon Magic? Or Races of the Dragon? Bah I don't remember. I haven't got any books on me, but I'll try and remember to look it up later.

Draconomicon, pg. 145ish. Every few years a True Dragon gains some LA and HD.

ohh ... hmm ... so they might have been speaking colloquially.
As in: the dragon gets older , therefore it gains X.

or

A campaign could go up levels fast enough in-game time wise,
it never triggers the growing older clause.
versus
A campaign could go up levels slow enough,
it triggers the growing older clause, multiple times.

[SorO_Lost]

All I know is for 5k Timeless Fountain^EB:SoX prevents natural aging for a year and is a must have for TDs.

Team Evil have a few more resources to abuse as well.

[mechatarrasque]

any chance of there being a builds section either in here, or in the handbook? i have tried to make a dragon pc into "the ultimate gish"  but it never worked out to be better, or as good as a human. 

[Mister Lamp]

any chance of there being a builds section either in here, or in the handbook? i have tried to make a dragon pc into "the ultimate gish"  but it never worked out to be better, or as good as a human.

I'd love to include builds, but I'll need some first. I've never been good at build write-ups. 

[mechatarrasque]

any chance of there being a builds section either in here, or in the handbook? i have tried to make a dragon pc into "the ultimate gish"  but it never worked out to be better, or as good as a human.

I'd love to include builds, but I'll need some first. I've never been good at build write-ups. 

the only one that i have is:  wyrmling steel dragon 4hd/ singer of concordance 2/ abjurant champion 5/ sacred exorcist 9.

it has bab 16, and cl 19. it includes bought off 2 la, the loredrake archetype, and using the cheesy reading of true dragons "automatically" qualifying for prc's that call for the dragonblood subtype.  i'm truly not even sure if this build is legal.  i am really wondering if dragon pc's are more trouble than they are worth...?

[Mister Lamp]

any chance of there being a builds section either in here, or in the handbook? i have tried to make a dragon pc into "the ultimate gish"  but it never worked out to be better, or as good as a human.

I'd love to include builds, but I'll need some first. I've never been good at build write-ups. 

the only one that i have is:  wyrmling steel dragon 4hd/ singer of concordance 2/ abjurant champion 5/ sacred exorcist 9.

it has bab 16, and cl 19. it includes bought off 2 la, the loredrake archetype, and using the cheesy reading of true dragons "automatically" qualifying for prc's that call for the dragonblood subtype.  i'm truly not even sure if this build is legal.  i am really wondering if dragon pc's are more trouble than they are worth...?

I fully support that interpretation. A lot of Dragons would be complete crap otherwise.

and included your build, with credit, in the handbook.

[Shadowmind]

I haven't seen much talk of using the over archetypes over than loredrake for optimizing potential. Flame of the Forge, Lightkeeper, Passion's Flame, Stalking Wyrm, and Wyrm of War all seems like okay choices for "dragons" that won't be using much spell casting.

[SorO_Lost]

I haven't seen much talk of using the over archetypes over than loredrake for optimizing potential. Flame of the Forge, Lightkeeper, Passion's Flame, Stalking Wyrm, and Wyrm of War all seems like okay choices for "dragons" that won't be using much spell casting.

If you abuse aging, archetypes cost more than they give.

For example, the well loved Loredrake to a Steel Dragon is +2 to Sorcerer Levels.
To the guy abusing aging, it's loss of every Cleric spell ever and they probably have +6 Sorcerer Levels after a spell or two anyway.

Wyrm At War would be amazing for gishes though. Feral Death Blow at level 10 or so? Yes please. Also, Dispassionate Watcher deserves a mention. A single level in it swaps your arcane based spellcasting gained from aging to divine spellcasting progression based directly off your divine class. So a Steel could trade away it's Cleric spells for the ability to learn maneuvers, then go Cleric 1 for divine spells and then to say Eldritch Theurge. On aging it would faster progress it's Cleric casting rather than Sorcerer, the primary aim is age buffs to make up CL loss, you get divine and arcane and martial, and the ability to use DDM(Persist). Run the whole thing off Ur-Priest instead and it just gets crazy.

[DavidWL]

I haven't seen much talk of using the over archetypes over than loredrake for optimizing potential. Flame of the Forge, Lightkeeper, Passion's Flame, Stalking Wyrm, and Wyrm of War all seems like okay choices for "dragons" that won't be using much spell casting.

If you abuse aging, archetypes cost more than they give.

For example, the well loved Loredrake to a Steel Dragon is +2 to Sorcerer Levels.
To the guy abusing aging, it's loss of every Cleric spell ever and they probably have +6 Sorcerer Levels after a spell or two anyway.

Wyrm At War would be amazing for gishes though. Feral Death Blow at level 10 or so? Yes please. Also, Dispassionate Watcher deserves a mention. A single level in it swaps your arcane based spellcasting gained from aging to divine spellcasting progression based directly off your divine class. So a Steel could trade away it's Cleric spells for the ability to learn maneuvers, then go Cleric 1 for divine spells and then to say Eldritch Theurge. On aging it would faster progress it's Cleric casting rather than Sorcerer, the primary aim is age buffs to make up CL loss, you get divine and arcane and martial, and the ability to use DDM(Persist). Run the whole thing off Ur-Priest instead and it just gets crazy.

Great observations!

I'm really surprised that you don't seem more mention of the Amphi dragon (vs. Steel/Mercury).

I'd argue Amphi = primary caster / double caster
Steel = low/mid level gish (alternate form is great at low level, meh at high level)
Mercury = mid/high level gish / combat (fast perfect flight is always awesome).

Best,
David

[brujon]

Mmm, major necro... There's a Handbook about this now, thread for discussing it is here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2044.msg169346#msg169346