Author Topic: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....  (Read 20293 times)

Offline Sjappo

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2014, 04:05:28 PM »
So now the players know that your world is a dangerous place and they can expect to run into things they need to run away from. Seems like a session well spent.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2014, 04:09:30 PM »
Well, Two sessions in, I've turned one character into a Necropolitan, and the entire party almost died when they picked a fight with a Boneyard that they didn't know was a Boneyard at level 5. Thanks to quick use of a rope trick they managed to not all die horribly and managed to get out of the dungeon with 75 percent of their pulses still intact. It was supposed to be scenery, and I did everything in my power to show that they weren't tall enough to ride that particular ride, but I screwed that particular process up. Oh well, live and learn.
I usually give a little speech at the beginning of my games warning them that the world is a dynamic and dangerous place, and that there are things in it which can easily wipe the floor with all of them. If they choose to piss off one of those things and persist in doing so even after in-character warnings, that I will have no mercy on them... Usually that's enough, but not always... :P
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Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2014, 04:28:26 PM »
Well, Two sessions in, I've turned one character into a Necropolitan, and the entire party almost died when they picked a fight with a Boneyard that they didn't know was a Boneyard at level 5. Thanks to quick use of a rope trick they managed to not all die horribly and managed to get out of the dungeon with 75 percent of their pulses still intact. It was supposed to be scenery, and I did everything in my power to show that they weren't tall enough to ride that particular ride, but I screwed that particular process up. Oh well, live and learn.
I usually give a little speech at the beginning of my games warning them that the world is a dynamic and dangerous place, and that there are things in it which can easily wipe the floor with all of them. If they choose to piss off one of those things and persist in doing so even after in-character warnings, that I will have no mercy on them... Usually that's enough, but not always... :P
Well, to be fair, he did indeed tell us that the world - for the most part - is NOT "level-scaled". 
In that particular encounter, the "warning" was the power of the magical aura of an undead-creating device, as per my use of Detect Magic.  In my defense, 1) that could have meant just about anything, and in all reality really isn't that accurate of an indicator of anything, 2) it didn't appear to be anywhere near full-capacity, so I thought we had time to deal with it (5 gallons of holy water and a few gallons of acid .... my mistake was in thinking we had enough actionable rounds to properly deliver that payload).  Apparently I was wrong all the way around.
But yes, we learned our lesson.  And our lesson (quite mercifully) came in the form of our rogue being turned in to a necropolatin .... which, all things considered, was actually a bit of an upgrade for him.

And I now have 3rd-level spells; so we'll see how things progress. :D
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 04:30:28 PM by wotmaniac »

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2014, 10:37:31 AM »
The dangerous world thing is very hard to calibrate.  I've always found it a bit hard to convey without being horrifically blatant about it (e.g., Elder Titan shows up at 3rd level) or relying too much on meta-game knowledge (e.g., well, that earlier example works here, too).

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2014, 07:31:24 PM »
I just say XP isn't about killing monsters. Sometimes you gain XP by running. Sort of like going up against a mega-stacked TSR dota game. You win TSR even when you lose.

Also, I'm very paranoid about leaving unfilled party roles.
Oh good, so it's not just me.
Part of it is probably some DM tailoring -- it's silly to include a bunch of traps if there is no trapfinder, and the converse is true, too.
No. The DM shouldn't neuter the challenges. Otherwise it becomes "this looks like a job for aquaman!" when players think about it.
But, if I get to the table and I find myself holding back by not using stuff on my character sheet when it would be apt. Then, I feel like I'm not being challenged and tend to get bored. Hence, my antipathy towards the "fail safe" meta-role.
I understand. But also, every DM needs a failsafe and so I often become that. But the other players must never know.

Offline linklord231

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2014, 01:10:51 AM »
Part of it is probably some DM tailoring -- it's silly to include a bunch of traps if there is no trapfinder, and the converse is true, too.
No. The DM shouldn't neuter the challenges. Otherwise it becomes "this looks like a job for aquaman!" when players think about it.

Interestingly, there's a thread over on Giantitp on precisely this topic. 
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Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2014, 02:59:24 AM »
Here's my take on this .....
1)
DM shouldn't be kid-gloves-style catering to the party.  Just because there's no rogue in the party doesn't mean that there should never be a lock to open or a trap to disable/avoid.  Just because there is no cleric doesn't mean that the party should never need healing.  Just because there is no wizard doesn't mean that the party should never need to bamph.

2)
The flip side of that coin is that if there is a role missing, there should at least be the opportunity to figure out a work-around.  Maybe somebody has UMD, and spends all their gold on scrolls/wands/etc..  Locks can be smashed.  Instead of diplomancing your way through the political minefield, maybe you do some extra homework and make better leveraging out of fictional positioning.  Ect., ect.

I think that this is just a particular (variant) application of the 3 clue rule

Offline Baad Speeler

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2014, 11:40:37 AM »
My view on the matter, is that if I choose to go ahead with the game when their is a smaller than normal party size, I'm not going to necessarily punish the party with as many traps as I can cram into a dungeon for not having a rogue, but nor am I going to not throw any traps at them. However, if there is a 6 character strong party, and they don't have a single bit of trapfinding in the party, well then trap making just became the fastest growing occupation in the realm.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2014, 10:06:30 AM »
Well, I think the hard role approach to D&D is a little misguided.  My parties have rarely had 4 people in them nowadays, and you end up constraining concepts, and even game worlds to make place for roles, which I think puts things backwards. 

Mostly I (and my friends) find traps appallingly boring.  Barring particularly adventuresome traps described in places like Dungeonscape (or Indiana Jones) they are just speedbumps that get in the way of "real" adventuring.  I also don't like the gameplay they encourage, namely a kind of cautious forensic form of D&D.  This is a taste thing, so ymmv. 

More generally, as a DM I do try to tailor things if characters' abilities are off the beaten path ability-wise so to speak.  For instance, if someone is playing a very social character in my D&D game, I'll probably include some more social tidbits.  This is a long time ago, but a friend was running a game and we had a Factotum for the first time in one.  So, he threw in tons of skill stuff b/c, I imagine, skills are often something that gets kind of lost in the stabbing and magicking that tends to define D&D. 

Note that this doesn't get anywhere close to "neutering" the challenges.  First off, that's a category mistake.  The combat characters are good at fighting.  Ok, but the fighting can be more or less challenging.  They can be facing Glooms and Elder Titans or Goblins armed with pancakes.  The same logic applies to anything else. 

All that being said, I don't usually do all that much tailoring.  I like to present the illusion that the world is what it is.  I'd be annoyed if all the sudden my fire mage is coming across a suspiciously high number of fire resistant monsters.  So, I try to just keep with challenges that fit the milieu and tone.  So, no, I wouldn't suddenly jack up the number of traps (which to be fair, is usually and transparently set to nearly 0 in my game worlds out of personal taste) just b/c nobody played a Rogue. 

The above tailoring tries to calibrate to what is interesting to the people and characters in the game.  Someone playing a social character is telling me "I want to do some social stuff."  Social stuff usually fits in any milieu -- sentient beings aren't that hard to come by -- hence the accommodation. 



All that's on the DM side of things, which is a little orthogonal to the original point that Wotmaniac was making and PlzBMC was reiterating.  On the PC end of things, roles are quite easy to cover.  Just taking trapfinding as the motivating example, PCs without a dedicated trapfinder can circumvent them any number of ways, though, so it rarely matters much.  (Although when you're committed to circumventing something, that's not a good sign that it's a fun-filled action-packed part of the game, hence my above comments.)

So, it seems silly to me that somebody fills compelled to play a Rogue-type just to account for them.  I think trapfinding is an easy case.  Healing is often thought of as a role, too, and that one is also not that difficult to account for, too.  I've found that condition removal is a little tougher to manage, given the variety of maladies that float around in 3E D&D.

That does require, though, that people commit resources to doing so.  For instance, setting aside my personal antipathy for traps, if you decide to build a party without a cleric or a tank or whatever you simply need to account for that.  Maybe you have a summoner, who has a ready substitute for the tank.  If you don't do that, or the players aren't sensitive to that, then things get dicier.  If people aren't approaching the game with that kind of troupe design, I could see the need for the harder approach to roles.  Although I wish D&D was less hidebound about them in general.

Offline Baad Speeler

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2014, 11:41:18 AM »
I just used traps/Rogues as an example. What I'm saying is that if a party is three people strong, I'm not going to hold their hand for the entire adventure, but I'm not going to go out of my way to punish them for it either.

If there is an abnormally large party, and they have a glaring hole in what they are capable of handling, I will exploit the hell out of it
Get your physics out of my five foot square

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2014, 11:41:44 AM »
Hmmm, there might be 2 things going on here.  One is the roles thing, which I have some antipathy towards.  The other might be calibration or exploitation of weaknesses. 

Take trapfinding and ranged combat.  One of them is an established D&D "role" whereas the other is just ... a thing, I guess?  Hence my role antipathy. 

I'm of two minds about this.  On the one hand, I don't actually like to encourage my players (and my position is the same on either side of the screen) to "harden" themselves against all possibilities.  To some extent, you need to do that in D&D, IP proofing is part of what distinguishes a low level and a high level character in the game.  I kind of like the idea of the Barbarian being barbaric and not necessarily carrying a longbow.  On the other hand, some dudes with ranged attacks are a feature of the world (presumably) and it doesn't exactly take Sun Tzu to want to engage the hulking tower of greataxe-wielding rage at a distance. 

So, like I said, two minds.  Mostly I just fake it?

Offline Baad Speeler

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2014, 12:24:20 PM »
I've always felt very "meh" about traps in general. I usually don't even use them as a DM, and when I do, it essentially boils down to me throwing some validation at the Rogue. For me it boils down to "exploitation of weakness" is how I think you worded it. If there is a giant weakness due to a small party, I am not going to hold it against them. If I have ten 8th level characters in the party and not a single person has a ranged option, every other person in the world just sprouted wings.

I don't care if the party has the classic: Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric. But I do expect them to have spell casting, melee, and ranged combat covered. If one of these things is not covered, I will make the party regret it.
Get your physics out of my five foot square

Offline littha

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2014, 07:45:03 PM »
Hmmm, there might be 2 things going on here.  One is the roles thing, which I have some antipathy towards.  The other might be calibration or exploitation of weaknesses. 

Take trapfinding and ranged combat.  One of them is an established D&D "role" whereas the other is just ... a thing, I guess?  Hence my role antipathy. 

I'm of two minds about this.  On the one hand, I don't actually like to encourage my players (and my position is the same on either side of the screen) to "harden" themselves against all possibilities.  To some extent, you need to do that in D&D, IP proofing is part of what distinguishes a low level and a high level character in the game.  I kind of like the idea of the Barbarian being barbaric and not necessarily carrying a longbow.  On the other hand, some dudes with ranged attacks are a feature of the world (presumably) and it doesn't exactly take Sun Tzu to want to engage the hulking tower of greataxe-wielding rage at a distance. 

So, like I said, two minds.  Mostly I just fake it?

My ranged weapons of choice for barbarians are throwing axes. They do kinda suck though.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #53 on: December 24, 2014, 01:27:32 PM »
^ throw bigger axes?

Offline CaptRory

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2014, 03:59:21 PM »
Ask the GM about making some throwing axes that are more in line with better throwing weapons? Raise the cost, boost the stats?

Offline Ice9

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2015, 04:07:45 PM »
Traps are kind of an edge case, because I feel like most adventures have way more traps than makes sense from a logical standpoint, in order to validate Trapfinding as a role.   So I wouldn't see less traps for a no-Rogue party as "catering to the party", so much as "not needing to cater to the Rogue".

Not that Trapfinding is the only thing a Rogue can do; they're potentially one of the better non-caster combatants and have most of the "power skills", but some players do see that as the main thing to focus on.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 04:10:05 PM by Ice9 »

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2015, 04:29:46 PM »
So, trapfinding lets you find/remove traps of DC 21+ ... which means magic traps.  Detect Magic/Arcane Sight/whatever lets you see magic auras.  Dispel Magic lets you ... well, right what it says on the tin; which disables permanent effects for d4 rounds.  No magic leaves DC 20-; which can now be disabled by anybody. 
That may or may not be RAW; but it works for us.



In other news -- I really hate basket weavers.  The more players I meet, the more I realize that basket-weaving is the "norm".  Why the f*ck is a sorcerer taking Rapid Reload?  Dafuq?! 
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 04:32:26 PM by wotmaniac »

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2015, 08:47:29 PM »
... and who the hell shoots un-metamagiced magic missile @ level 8? against a hydra? when there's 2 of them?
Same guy took 2 ranks in UMD.

Looking like I need another purge.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 08:50:26 PM by wotmaniac »

Offline Baad Speeler

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2015, 10:42:22 PM »
You forgot that he took two cross class ranks in magic missile umd. As a sorcerer. For healing. When there was a cleric in the party.

Good catch. Apparently I had a failure to brain.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 01:15:18 PM by Baad Speeler »
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Offline linklord231

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Re: Maybe I'm just doing it wrong ....
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2015, 01:19:37 AM »
Question:  how does one take ranks in magic missle, cross-class or otherwise? 
Question 2:  how does one heal with magic missile?
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