Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege

[Tshern]

If I use the Epic Seed transform (which gives you their memories) to turn myself into Dispater (can be done with a DC152 Spellcraft epic spell, before mitigating factors)
1. Would the Iron tower treat me as dispater (as per RAW)?

I doubt you can turn into things with divine ranks. That would essentially allow you to have a bunch of level 21 characters turning themselves into Dispaters, or Rules of Three or whatnot. Just my two cents.

Is leadership and it's derivatives allowed?

You can always have a party of four anyway. The number of divine ranks is limited to 18 in total, but you could have a DvR 18 deity and three minions.

What would Iron Heart Surge do to the tower?

Nothing, the Iron Tower is not an effect.

But I would be able to summon him, and mind rape him with a bunch of stuff so I can find out where his throne room is? Then delete his memory of it and send him back?

Immune to mind-affecting abilities.

[Amechra]

Deities overcome immunities using an opposed rank check.

[TravelLog]

Is epic Binder and the Epic vestiges allowed?

Can you IRON HEART SURGE away the catapsi effect of the Tower?

What is the WBL for a 70th level character?( the MiC Chart only goes to 30th)

Does being in the center of a Sphere of Annihilation block line of effect and/or line of sight?

Is legacy champion and (custom)legacy weapons allowed?

Could Rudimentary Intelligence from Dragon Magazine 327 be allowed?

Does the Sardorian Golem, who has Magic Immunity which reads:
Immunity to Magic (Ex): Sardorian golems are immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects and abilities.
Keep that version? It is 3.5 when the golem was made. It was the weaker standard-golem immunity to psionic effects.

Epic Binder and Epic Vestiges: Allowed.
IHS: Will have no effect on the catapsi.
WBL above level 30: Use this link
Sphere of Annihilation: Explain how you could be in its center? After you explain I'll be able to put an answer together.
Legacy Champion/Weapons: Allowed, but don't the abilities cap at level 20? You can't advance them beyond the normal limit.
Rudimentary Intelligence: Not Allowed. And I'm starting to think I should just forget Dragon Mag all together.
Sardonian Golem: Not Allowed. If you use it, it will operate as all other golems in that it will have Magic Immunity only on SR:Yes

"...you have zero chance of learning Dispater's true name"
Is this statement, and other stuff like it, intended to be taken literally?

With the stuff available so far, it is relatively easy to design a routine which will pronounce every finite sequence of syllables in, like, one round (via, say, NI readied actions). I've also, in the other thread, suggested a time-travel based method which can be modified to learn literally any information. We have a lot of wishes and stuff, too...

So, basically, I'm wondering if it's just DM fiat that certain approaches cannot be made to work? If so, it might be nice to know in advance which ones.

(also, what about the Ice-Assassin spell? I assume it's banned?)

Certain things are fiated because, while technically possible, they ignore the spirit of the challenge, and are not realistic, even in D&D terms, to boot. The things that aren't allowed are listed in the first post. It isn't complete because I haven't thought of everything, and people always come up with new things.

Ice Assassin: Not Allowed.

If I use the Epic Seed transform (which gives you their memories) to turn myself into Dispater (can be done with a DC152 Spellcraft epic spell, before mitigating factors)
1. Would the Iron tower treat me as dispater (as per RAW)?
2. Would I be able to teleport directly to his throne-room, (I'd guess that Dispater remembers pretty well what it looks like)?
3. Oddball note, would killing myself in the iron tower be classified as killing Dispater?

---
On secondary notes:
Is leadership and it's derivatives allowed?
What would Iron Heart Surge do to the tower?

He must be killed on Dis. If you want to slaughter him all over the cosmos before, sure, but that won't complete the challenge.

But I would be able to summon him, and mind rape him with a bunch of stuff so I can find out where his throne room is? Then delete his memory of it and send him back?

As Tshern said, you can't become things with Divine Ranks. Again, as Tshern said. You can have a party of four, total number of divine ranks is limited to 18 total.

As I mention above, Iron Heart Surge has no effect on the Iron Tower.

Dispater and all Lords of the Nine are immune to mind-affecting.

[Tshern]

Deities overcome immunities using an opposed rank check.

Dispater is an abomination. They are naturally immune.

[TravelLog]

Forget to mention this earlier:

Lucid Dreaming: Not Allowed. First because the Nine Hells are essentially a "closed" series of planes when it comes to things like that, and second because it's rather broken in that there is no opposed check.

[Amechra]

Deities overcome immunities using an opposed rank check.

Dispater is an abomination. They are naturally immune.

Look, he isn't THAT ugly (I kid, I kid.)

Changes my plan of using Mind of the Beast to make him cluck like a chicken. Le sigh.

[Shadowmind]

The epic Vestige Tkhaluuljin "the Cephalopocalypse" (think Cthulhu) allows a Binder to Summon a Sphere of Annihilation, and has this effect is regards to the summoned sphere "
You must still make control checks to control the sphere as normal though you are immune to the effects of a
sphere you summon." Greater Deities can shrink themselves down to being small enough to fix inside of the 3ft diameter sphere.

As far as I know this is the only way to be inside of a Sphere of Annihilation.

[TravelLog]

The epic Vestige Tkhaluuljin "the Cephalopocalypse" (think Cthulhu) allows a Binder to Summon a Sphere of Annihilation, and has this effect is regards to the summoned sphere "
You must still make control checks to control the sphere as normal though you are immune to the effects of a
sphere you summon." Greater Deities can shrink themselves down to being small enough to fix inside of the 3ft diameter sphere.

As far as I know this is the only way to be inside of a Sphere of Annihilation.

Weirdly enough, I just mentioned Tkhaluuljin to someone looking for Binder help. Small world.

And yes, that seems a valid interpretation. Naturally though, you would have to ensure you could control the sphere, as otherwise it would move while you weren't guiding it and you would be revealed. A rather awkward situation for all involved I might imagine.

[Mixster]

Dispater does not technically have divine ranks, he has an Ex ability granting him divine ranks, but I can see where you are coming from.

I doubt you can turn into things with divine ranks. That would essentially allow you to have a bunch of level 21 characters turning themselves into Dispaters, or Rules of Three or whatnot. Just my two cents.

I can by RAW. That's one of the reasons Epic Spells are broken. A bunch of 21 level characters would suffer from the fact that their HD isn't high enough to get Dispaters abilities, my HD will be high enough to get it.

You can always have a party of four anyway. The number of divine ranks is limited to 18 in total, but you could have a DvR 18 deity and three minions.

Sure, but with leadership and enough charisma I could have level 20 followers, who could be thrallherds commanding around spellcasters to give me a bunch of 9th level spells to fuel divine spells.
Those minions wouldn't be worth bringing to the plane, but having a lot of permanent epic spells could be handy.
Also, my minions could be used for researching the epic spells so I don't have to waste the negligible amount of Exp myself.

The problem with this challenge is, that with no way of shutting down the Iron Tower, or Teleporting within it, it becomes technically impossible just moving within infinite space, I mean, Dispaters foyer could be the size of the universe times three, so just getting past his welcome mat is technically impossible without teleportation, since Deities can't circumvent this with a rank check, the only way to get this is to get a token that leads to the throne room, which none of them probably does.

I'm also assuming Meorem doesn't have access to his throne room because it would be stupid, and since Dispater is probably as paranoid against him, even taking his place and being Lawful Evil (so he doesn't recognize the change) would be a fruitless effort.

Immune to mind-affecting abilities.

So if I have a way around this immunity, such as being a dread witch that adds the fear descriptor to my spells, I could do this and mind rape him.
The fact that I can then summon him, and affect him with mind affecting spells makes it more interesting, I could summon him, mind rape him, compel him to planeshift back to his throne room and do nothing, then set a trigger that when I arrive in his throne room he is to commit suicide.

If I really wanted to get into his throne room, I'd guess that Foresee + Transport seeds would work.

---
Also, would the SDA Divine Recall, Teleportation (or better yet, movement) allow me to remember every teleportation spell ever cast. Meaning I would be able to find Dispater by simply remembering where he teleports?

EDIT: How about the control creatures SDA? It is not a mind affecting ability, but it allows you to control all creatures within the same plane unless they save, then I just need to buff the save DC to 82 so I can make Dispater come and do whatever I tell him. I guess an infinite number of devils would turn up, but I guess it would be solved by having them all kill themselves.

[TravelLog]

There is now a sub forum for this topic in PbP: linked here

Please continue any further discussion or questions there.

[Tshern]

Dispater does not technically have divine ranks, he has an Ex ability granting him divine ranks, but I can see where you are coming from.

He does, however, have cosmic ranks. 15 of them.

I can by RAW. That's one of the reasons Epic Spells are broken. A bunch of 21 level characters would suffer from the fact that their HD isn't high enough to get Dispaters abilities, my HD will be high enough to get it.

Nothing prevents Dispater from using that to create multiple versions of your challenger.

Sure, but with leadership and enough charisma I could have level 20 followers, who could be thrallherds commanding around spellcasters to give me a bunch of 9th level spells to fuel divine spells.
Those minions wouldn't be worth bringing to the plane, but having a lot of permanent epic spells could be handy.
Also, my minions could be used for researching the epic spells so I don't have to waste the negligible amount of Exp myself.

Point taken.

The problem with this challenge is, that with no way of shutting down the Iron Tower, or Teleporting within it, it becomes technically impossible just moving within infinite space, I mean, Dispaters foyer could be the size of the universe times three, so just getting past his welcome mat is technically impossible without teleportation, since Deities can't circumvent this with a rank check, the only way to get this is to get a token that leads to the throne room, which none of them probably does.

Challengers have been inside the Iron Tower before.

So if I have a way around this immunity, such as being a dread witch that adds the fear descriptor to my spells, I could do this and mind rape him.
The fact that I can then summon him, and affect him with mind affecting spells makes it more interesting, I could summon him, mind rape him, compel him to planeshift back to his throne room and do nothing, then set a trigger that when I arrive in his throne room he is to commit suicide.

If I really wanted to get into his throne room, I'd guess that Foresee + Transport seeds would work.

Never hurts to try.

EDIT: How about the control creatures SDA? It is not a mind affecting ability, but it allows you to control all creatures within the same plane unless they save, then I just need to buff the save DC to 82 so I can make Dispater come and do whatever I tell him. I guess an infinite number of devils would turn up, but I guess it would be solved by having them all kill themselves.

Witch said back in the day something about only one deity being able to have that ability per race. I think.

[Mixster]

Witch said back in the day something about only one deity being able to have that ability per race. I think.

So as long as there isn't already a deity of abominations I'd be fine?

[Tshern]

Witch said back in the day something about only one deity being able to have that ability per race. I think.

So as long as there isn't already a deity of abominations I'd be fine?

Well, Dispater is a devil, first and foremost. Something worth exploring, let's see what the DM thinks.

[TravelLog]

I'll rephrase for clarity: Asmodeus' Overlord SDA precludes your ability to use it. You're welcome to try to find a way around it, but good luck.

[Mixster]

I'll rephrase for clarity: Asmodeus' Overlord SDA precludes your ability to use it. You're welcome to try to find a way around it, but good luck.

Asmodeus isn't an Overlord of Abominations. Actually, both he, and Dispater have gotten the extra type Abomination. So if a deity of Abominations were to come by, they would both bow to him.

[TravelLog]

DM fiat on this one I'm afraid.

[Shadowmind]

The WBL chart you linked was for npc wealth I think. Which Witch originally said that is what deities get, but later changed his mind. Witch also said that we could pull together the wealth of the 4 party members.  If we only got wealth from 1 character that statement would be nonsensical.

[Tshern]

Deities use their own wealth to equip their party members. No additional wealth given for extra challengers. On the issue of wealth, that was my bad, I linked TravelLog to the NPC wealth table. The usable wealth stands at 108 million gp with a maximum of one third spent on any individual item.

Hope that clarifies things.

[Shadowmind]

Are we still allowed custom artifacts? In the WoTC board witch approved a few of them.

What would be the cost to add a effect similar to:
Phylactery Transference (Su)
Headbands, belts, rings, cloaks, and other wearable items kept in close association with the demilich’s phylactery transfer all their benefits to the demilich no matter how far apart the demilich and the phylactery are located.
To an artifact?

What bypasses Dispater's regeneration?
What pages does each chapter of the Gate of Hell start on?

[TravelLog]

Are we still allowed custom artifacts? In the WoTC board witch approved a few of them.

What would be the cost to add a effect similar to:
Phylactery Transference (Su)
Headbands, belts, rings, cloaks, and other wearable items kept in close association with the demilich’s phylactery transfer all their benefits to the demilich no matter how far apart the demilich and the phylactery are located.
To an artifact?

What bypasses Dispater's regeneration?
What pages does each chapter of the Gate of Hell start on?

I'm not sure of the cost for those items, you'll have to calculate them using the MiC, the SRD, and artificer's guides. It depends on the spells, caster level, activation type, etc.

As for the chapters, Chapter Nine starts on 323 I believe. Whatever the page number, it should be clear (there is a big page between each chapter saying Chapter X: ________)