Crushing enemies to death

[Braininthejar]

I assume it's also for the sake of simplicity that we don't change the rules for falling damage depending on the mass of the one falling? Everyone knows a cat can fall from the roof safely while a man will break arms and legs and an elephant will go splat. 

[littha]

I assume it's also for the sake of simplicity that we don't change the rules for falling damage depending on the mass of the one falling? Everyone knows a cat can fall from the roof safely while a man will break arms and legs and an elephant will go splat. 

I certainly dont want to have to work out what the terminal velocity of every monster in the game is...

(Some particually fluffy cats can fall from technically infinite heights and survive because their terminal velocity is lower than the speed requred to kill them on impact. )

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Um. Isn't it a flat DC 15 or something to avoid falling objects?

[faeryn]

Um. Isn't it a flat DC 15 or something to avoid falling objects?

According to everything I can find, there is no DC to avoid falling objects...

[ketaro]

So, looking around some, because such a thing is currently useful to me as well, D20 Modern has some decent rules on avoiding falling objects.

Objects that fall upon characters (or creatures or vehicles) deal damage based on their size and the distance fallen, as noted on Table: Damage from Falling Objects.

Objects deal the initial damage given in Table: Damage from Falling Objects if they fall 10 feet or less. An object deals an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage). Objects of Fine size are too small to deal damage, regardless of the distance fallen.

A successful Reflex save indicates that the target takes half damage. The size of the falling object determines the save DC.

If the save fails by 10 or more, and the object is at least three size categories larger than the character, the character is pinned under the fallen object. A pinned character cannot move but is not helpless. The character can make a Strength check to lift the object off him or herself or an Escape Artist check (DC 20) to get out from underneath. The GM can modify the DCs for these checks based on the circumstances.

Looks pretty comparable here.

[Captnq]

There is a flat DC 15 to avoid falling objects. While your methodology is awesome, you forgot how much falling damage you take.

So, you need to be a monk.

Monks fall at full speed yet ignore falling damage. Furthermore, monks can be very stealthy. You get a DC 15 to avoid a falling object, IF YOU CAN SEE IT.

1. That gives you invisibility (negated by so much crap it's not funny.)
2. A maxed out Hide/move silent wearing a bee-keeper outfit with ASAs to futher max out yer stealth.

[faeryn]

There is a flat DC 15 to avoid falling objects. While your methodology is awesome, you forgot how much falling damage you take.

So, you need to be a monk.

Monks fall at full speed yet ignore falling damage. Furthermore, monks can be very stealthy. You get a DC 15 to avoid a falling object, IF YOU CAN SEE IT.

1. That gives you invisibility (negated by so much crap it's not funny.)
2. A maxed out Hide/move silent wearing a bee-keeper outfit with ASAs to futher max out yer stealth.

Actually, the monk's slow fall ability is very limited in it's usage, and does slow your decent. Take a look:

Slow Fall (Ex): At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm's reach of a wall can use it to slow her descent. When first using this ability, she takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk's ability to slow her fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with her monk level until at 20th level she can use a nearby wall to slow her descent and fall any distance without harm. See the Special column on Table 3—10 for details.

You have to be within arms reach of a wall to slow fall as a monk. So dropping from 200ft in the air above an enemy to crush them would still cause you to take full falling damage unless you have a wall of some kind that you can touch. Doing so however, would also negate any falling damage you might deal.

There are methods of reducing your damage taken from falls that don't involve slowing your fall though. I can't remember any of them off the top of my head, but in the last campaign I played in we had a PC who would frequently teleport 200ft above an enemy and drop like a rock on top of them. He a combination of racial abilities, feats, and gear that reduced the falling damage he received by half without slowing his decent.

[Captnq]

Yes. Reduces the damage SHE takes. It says nothing about reducing the damage anyone you land on takes.

Fall damage on to other creatures
It's raining Monks?

Trust me, this isn't an old concept. By RAW, a monk climbs up into the shadows. Hides, waits for someone to walk by, falls on them.

Note, I don't need a wall the whole way down. 10 feet of wall, tree, pole, anything really and that's enough to slow my fall. I just need a section of wall that is more then 5 feet off the ground.

In a wide open area, my players came up (the monk does the falling on people thing, actually) with casting an invisible Force Ladder next to targets so the monk could do her falling thing. Because falling damage is... falling damage. There is only one defense against it, an obscure Armor Special Ability.

As for the monk's fall is "slowed", well, that's fluff text. It has no bearing on fall damage. The monk takes reduced damage, not anything the monk hits. Falling damage rules are very poorly written, being spread out over two books. I think complete warrior has the clarification.


But there is no where that it states that it negates ALL falling damage.

she takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk's ability to slow her fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with her monk level until at 20th level she can use a nearby wall to slow her descent and fall any distance without harm

It might slow her decent, but a monk still falls 150 feet a round. You can't fall as a free action any faster or slower. You still move 150 feet. Since the damage is only negated for the monk, whatever damage you might do hitting something still occurs.

You are thinking like a normal person. This is D&D RAW. If you want to house rule that it don't work that way, that's fine, but you are taking away one of the few cool things about being a monk.

[Captnq]

BTW, Before you make any "claim" that "it doesn't make sense", allow my to ask you this:

A man is 10,000 feet in the air. He falls. 10' away from where he is going to impact is a 10' tall step ladder in the middle of a flat, featureless plane. He touches it with his PINKY and lands on his feet, casually strolling away.

That doesn't make ANY sense until you state, "It's a class ability, deal with it."
Well, you might think that because it "slows" the fall that it negates damage against what you hit. "slow" is a term that refers to how many actions you can take. It doesn't apply to falling in anyway. They did not define the class feature well. They didn't define falling well. So this is the logical conclusion of how the rules read as written. In the RAW reading of the rules, the monk not only lands unharmed, but the ground takes 20d6 points of damage at the point of impact, leaving a crater and a cloud of dust that the monk walks out of.

Now, if there is anyone here who cares to take the position that monks are overpowered, please, by all means, lets argue if this obscure method of attacking that usually takes two rounds to set up is really all that game breaking. (And yes, I've been playing with it for months. My players come up with half of the crazy crap that's in the EVD. They use it when I give them something that is utterly invulnerable to normal attacks, because falling damage gets through just about everything.)

And remember, if the target sees it coming, it's a DC 15 reflex save to step out of the way. That's why the party monk is the only one able to pull it off. Without a successful maxed out stealth roll (see the EVD Skill Handbook for combining Hide and Move Silently) Just about every target will avoid damage unless they roll a 1. (at least in my high level campaign)

Oh side note, you can only use the weight of the creature impacting you. You cannot include anything the creature is carrying. It was a long arguement that I don't wish to repeat, but the bottom line is, if a creature is carrying something, that weight doesn't apply to any damage a target takes when said creature falls on said target. The creature carrying the extra weight is the one who would have to deal with the damage of impact, not the one you are hitting.

This does not apply if the creature falling is dead.

So, hitting someone with a dead dwarf in a suit of Thaalud Stone Plate is different from hitting someone with a live dwarf in a suit of Thaalud stone plate.

Just another Quirk of the RAW falling rules.

[Captnq]

In regards to the DC 15 reflex save.

While you can be invisible or stealthy while falling, I have successfully argued that Dive For Cover feat that gives you a second reflex save on a failed roll (but leaves you prone) applies. Since you cannot make the roll in the first place, you "fail" the roll. My argument goes, "I allow you to willingly fail a saving throw, if you wish. In that case, you do not roll at all. This is UNwillingly failing a saving throw. He has no choice about rolling, so he fails. If he fails, he gets the dive for cover re-roll.

Ironically, the NPC failed the reflex save.

[faeryn]

OK, I'll concede to that... BTW, I'm perfectly fine with justifying a 10ft tall pole next to an enemy as meeting the conditions of having a wall within arms reach for a monk falling 200ft onto an enemy... in fact if the monk did grab onto a pole for such purpose, I'd arguably allow them to make a single unarmed attack against their target in addition dealing falling damage to them, but at the cost of if they missed the attack they land next to the enemy rather than on them.

However... I have a hard time accepting that slow fall doesn't actually slow the rate of decent... For example, a Raptorian has a slow fall ability when rendered uncouncious in the air that causes them to fall at 60ft per round. The Feather Fall spell has the same effect reducing falling speed down to 60ft per round.

[Captnq]

Ah, but feather fall states:

(equivalent to the end of a fall from a few feet)

Feather fall and everything that goes off of feather fall is nothing more then a 5 foot fall, no matter what. Monk Slow Fall is nothing like that. You fall 150 feet a round, not 60, then take no damage. It isn't, you fall any distance, then it's LIKE falling five feet.

Maybe it SHOULD have been that way, but Monk Slow fall is different then Feather Fall and the two are not equivelent.

REMEMBER:

she takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is.

It isn't AS IF you fall 20 feet less. You TAKE DAMAGE as if 20 feet less. Everything else is the same.

[phaedrusxy]

That's actually a lot cooler visually. Reminds me of how the Jedi do that in one of the Star Wars movies.

[TuggyNE]

And remember, if the target sees it coming, it's a DC 15 reflex save to step out of the way. That's why the party monk is the only one able to pull it off.

Like all claims that "X class is the only one that can do Y" for any non-trivial or interesting Y (especially those involving Monks), this is completely bogus. Simple counter-example: Psychic Rogue 1+ with catfall and maxed Hide/Move Silently. Equal or better stealth skills, no limit on fall usage conditions, and flexibility with other powers later... or switch to Psion after the first level and do a more standard manifester build for better pp endurance.

If a single-classed character can do your class's trick three levels earlier and considerably better (even if only a couple times a day at first), your "unique and special snowflake" class is pretty sad. Of course, that's Monk for you.

[Captnq]

I may have written a handbook on psionics; I don't play with psionics.

And that power won't work in antimagic fields, which I toss around like a Mexican landscaper re-seeding the lawn of a obnoxious aging actress who's failed career fills with such disappointment that she spends all her time torturing undocumented workers.

[ketaro]

I may have written a handbook on psionics; I don't play with psionics.

And that power won't work in antimagic fields, which I toss around like a Mexican landscaper re-seeding the lawn of a obnoxious aging actress who's failed career fills with such disappointment that she spends all her time torturing undocumented workers.

Um, a crapload of stuff "won't work in AMFs".
Something can't be said to not work just because a counter exists for it. There is a counter for everything.

Regardless of how often you might apparently abuse them, at least. *shrugs*

[TuggyNE]

I may have written a handbook on psionics; I don't play with psionics.

And that power won't work in antimagic fields, which I toss around like a Mexican landscaper re-seeding the lawn of a obnoxious aging actress who's failed career fills with such disappointment that she spends all her time torturing undocumented workers.

Oh, in that case! Why bother with that trick at all? If AMFs everywhere are a thing, Monks aren't all that great (they have a few too many Sus, thanks anyway), but of course full casters are terrible too (barring mailmen and similar), so you can basically just do whatever and it'll look good next to that. And if you're going Core-only or similar, I suppose Monks get a lot closer to having some sort of tiny niche protection.

For the game as a whole in something like a more normal state, though, I think my earlier post stands.

[zook1shoe]

Any way to do this in PF?