[3.5] 8th level gish

[Rhyn]

Hi ! I'm planning a back up character for my current game, seeing that one of us died twice in the same evening. 

We are actually level 8, and planning to go up to 14-15, though leveling is pretty slow. Also, we don't get much magic items, and the highest we can buy is 4 or 5 000gp. (And start pretty much naked, after some guy's new characters were killed and looted a few times)
I wanted to make a gish, but after reading the handbooks, there are so many possible builds that I feel a bit lost. As I won't go to 20, I will hardly be able to take more than one PrC, so no swiftblade/Abjurant champion.

I was thinking Stalwart sorcerer 6 / Swiftblade 2, going as far into Swiftblade as possible.

But on the other hand, a sorcadin would be neat, with the Cha synergy. And in that case, I have a base of Pal 2 / Sorc 4 / Abjurant Champion 2, who'd take more Abj Champ levels, and maybe a Spellsword or Dragonslayer one.


As I don't have much experience with Gish, I'd love it if you could help me picture how both of those would turn out in combat. Would there be that big of a difference ? Both would cast haste before anything else, but the Abjurant Champion would swift cast Shield and then swing his greatsword, whereas I feel like the Swiftblade would want to spend some time casting other spells.

If you could help me make my mind, i'll reward you with helping me again about the crunchy bits ! 

[awaken_D_M_golem]

hmm ... Low Gear means being a little more paranoid
than charging to the frontline like a stereotype Barbarian.

Your builds are quite middle of the road for Cha Gishes.
Battle Sorc 8 is another option, in the SRD.
Could mix in Warlock and the dual caster prc for that.


2 minor edits

[SorO_Lost]

How about an Arcane Swordsage? Tell your GM you want it to be Charisma based and you won't pick up Anything with the Polymorph Subschool or Action breakers (outside of haste of course) but you want to use Haste of the Trapsmith's Spell List.

Ergo: ASS 1 / Swiftblade 7

[Rhyn]

Thanks for the input, though I'm even more lost now

Awaken_D_M_golem >
I thought Battle sorcerer was a trap, with so few spells known ?
And the warlock would come with hideous blow ?

SorO_Lost >
Okay, I'm not even sure I got that right. ASS knows as many arcane spells as his maneuvers known, spell level equivalent to wizard casting, and readies a few of them that are available once each per encounter, unless you use a full round action to get them back ? And you can change them anytime outside combat and spam them with glee ? And PrCs do not increase your casting ?

Though, how would ASS1 qualify for Swiftblade ? A level 1, even with a 1st level Haste, you don't have a high enough BBA (+3, which would only kick in at 4)

[SorO_Lost]

My link to the Swiftblade died, I have so many bookmarks to fix, so I missed the Requirements outside of needing Haste.

PrCs that progress Spellcasting due to advancing your level as if you gained a level in your original Class work fine. The rest is addressed in the linked article, the primary issue through is Haste is not a Personal/Touch Spell and not normally a learnable Spell. But without Polymorph/Action breaking the ASS is pretty playable. And even with them, still not on the same scale as a Sorcerer. It's a full Vancian Spellcasting vs Warlock concept really, limited uses of breaking reality vs spamming less broken Spells. It's just the ASS handles the role perfectly, better than the Blades, Paladin or Ranger. Kind of iffy if it's better than the Bard through, by the 20th level certainly but lower than that it varies, kind of depends on how free you can Dominate/Diplomacy people.

If ASS isn't allowed that's fine. Sorcerer/Abjuration Champion with consideration of Warblade/JPM works fine.

[Captnq]

Try a Mystic Ranger. I have a half-assed handbook in the EVD.

EVD/Class Handbooks/Mystic Ranger b0.08


Never did get anything done past the magic addict, but the character creation section is finished.

[Jackinthegreen]

Mystic Ranger is from Dragon 336 page 105, if a source is needed.  It gets 5th level spells by 10th level in the class, and you can use Sword of the Arcane Order to cast Wizard spells as well.

As far as warlock builds go, Hideous Blow is not used.  Either Eldritch Glaive from Dragon Magic is, or the Eldritch Claws feat from Dragon 358.

[Captnq]

Oh, I got it all in the handbook. Complete with chart, every possible ACF, level substitutions, and all three different arguments about how SotAO is applied. The "magic addict" build includes an example. I need to get back to that when I get more time. I got notes on four different builds around the Mystic Ranger.

And that reminds me, I gotta finish up that Warlock Handbook. Eldrich Claws are just so NEAT!

Here. Archibald Copperpot 3rd level clawlock. He was fun to make. He's about as munchkined as I could get him at only 3rd level, well, without getting stupid.

[eggynack]

If you're cool with opening up your definition of gish some, to include any character that beats face, uses magic, and beats face through the use of magic, all with high effectiveness, then you'd do well with some variety of cleric or druid. Druid especially, I think, because druids do great when cash and PrC limited, though clerics do alright with that stuff also. It's just a more elegant way to accomplish the magical beat-stick goal, in my view.

[phaedrusxy]

How deadset on going with an arcane spellcaster are you? The divine bard variant is a pretty good "canned gish", as they don't suffer from ASF and get a lot of really great spells typically only available to arcane casters. I just put one together that goes into prestige paladin at later levels (which is actually pretty tricky to pull off, mostly because of the Turn Undead prereq).

It wound up as a bit of a supermount (also used the "fey/nature" bard variant to trade inspire courage for an animal companion), but that's certainly not the only direction you could go with it. I just thought it made sense because of how many awesome spells on the paladin list are mount specific. Also a supermount buffed with a bunch of sorc/wiz spells like Mirror Image and Blur sounds pretty nasty... Eventually I'll probably dip a PrC to re-acquire Inspire Courage so I can have a hasted/blurred supermount with flaming claws.

[SorO_Lost]

If "Prestige Paladin" counts as Paladin Levels, just take the Initiate of Milil & Devoted Performer

[phaedrusxy]

If "Prestige Paladin" counts as Paladin Levels, just take the Initiate of Milil & Devoted Performer

Was thinking of taking "From Smite to Song", as smite is houseruled to be per encounter.

[Rhyn]

Wow, thanks everyone !

SorO_Lost > I'll check for ASS, but it might be a bit too much rule-heavy, as my DM doesn't speak english, so that would take some time to translate and discuss with him. As for your sorc/abjurant champ build, I suppose you'd go battle sorcerer ?

Captnq > Wow, thanks for that one ! It is a pretty sweet base class for going swiftblade ! (Or other PrCs, anyway !)

eggynack & phaedrusxy > Well, yeah, i'd rather play an arcane guy, the spells just seem much more fun (mirror image, haste ... )


So after a bit of reading and cross checking, I'd go :

Mystic Ranger 6 / Swiftblade 2
ACF Arcane hunter and Armor of senses (wis to AC instead of combat style, though I could pick the one with power attack)

Feats: Magical training, Sword of the arcane order, Dodge (expeditious, if allowed) and Mobility. If I can get a flaw, I'll switch that 6th level with Dragonslayer or Abjurant champion.

[phaedrusxy]

eggynack & phaedrusxy > Well, yeah, i'd rather play an arcane guy, the spells just seem much more fun (mirror image, haste ... )

Both of those are on the bard list... and you still get them as a divine bard. You should seriously look into it.

My character's spells known:
0th (3): Ghost Sound, Detect Magic, Message, Mage Hand, Dancing Lights, Prestidigitation
1st (3): Lesser Restoration, Resurgence, Faith Healing, Protection from Evil
2nd (3): Whirling Blade, Mirror Image, Alter Self, Call Mount
3rd (3): Righteous Fury, Gaseous Form, Confusion, Heal Mount
4th (1): Celerity, Favor of the Martyr, Spell Theft

And since he's a Prestige Paladin, with Battle Blessing, some (or maybe all... YMMV) of his spells can be cast as a swift action.

[Rhyn]

How do you get all those paladin/cleric spells ? Edit: Nwm, found it

[skydragonknight]

How do you get all those paladin/cleric spells ?

Prestige Paladin adds all paladin-only spells to your spell list.

[Rhyn]

Yeah, I read that part just after posting 


How do you get that domain staff at level 7 ? It's more than twice your average wealth.
Also, getting track with half-elf ?

Another way to get prestige paladin could be with 1 level of cloistered cleric ? (and I could substitute one or all domains to free some feat slots)

[phaedrusxy]

Yeah, I read that part just after posting 


How do you get that domain staff at level 7 ? It's more than twice your average wealth.
Also, getting track with half-elf ?

Another way to get prestige paladin could be with 1 level of cloistered cleric ? (and I could substitute one or all domains to free some feat slots)

That character is 13th level, not 7th. And yeah, there are other ways to do the build, for sure. If the DM would allow you to combine some of the variants, you could even go cloistered cleric/divine prestige bard/prestige paladin.

I plan to dip Contemplative to grab the domain, so I can sell the staff in the future.

The bonus half-elf feat is a houserule for that game.

[Rhyn]

Divine Fey Bard 7 / Cloistered Cleric 1  going into Prestige Freedom Paladin

1 - Bard 1 - Animal companion, nature sense, wild empathy, Bardic music (countersong, fascinate), Natural Bond (feat), Power attack (human)
2 - Bard 2
3 - Bard 3 - Mounted Combat (feat)
4 - Bard 4 - Resist nature's lure (+4 VS Fey SLA)
5 - Bard 5
6 - Bard 6 - Bardic music (Suggestion), Track (feat)
7 - Bard 7
8 - CC 1 - Turn UD (3+cha), Lore, Knowledge Devotion, Animal Devotion, Travel Domain


9 - PrPal 1 - Detect evil, smite evil 1/day, turn UD, Battle blessing
10 - PrPal 2 - Divine grace, LoH, Mount
11 - PrPal 3 - Aura of Resolve, Divine Health
12 - Bard 8 ? - Devoted tracker


Wondering if getting the war domain with CC and learning Divine power as a Divine Bard/PrPal would allow me to get the reserve feat holy warrior ? That would be a neat +4 damage.


Just realized that straight Prestige paladin might not work with LG required and Bard being any nonlawful. But I suppose Prestige paladin of Freedom should be possible. And Aura of Resolve seems far better than Aura of Courage.

[phaedrusxy]

That should work, I'd think, but you might want to ask the DM.

Looks like you've incorporated a lot of the same elements as my character. Glad you liked it. Going with the cloistered cleric dip is probably superior to my method, especially starting out at level 8 rather than 13.