Author Topic: (Almost) Flawless Erudite  (Read 13775 times)

Offline faeryn

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Re: (Almost) Flawless Erudite
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2014, 02:10:13 PM »
Quote from: MainFAQv06272003
Say an 11th-level wizard has an Intelligence of 15. Can the wizard prepare a teleport spell (5th-level spell) enhanced with the Silent Spell metamagic feat and thus use a 6th-level spell slot that the character (thanks to low Intelligence) could not use to prepare a 6th-level spell?

Using a metamagic feat makes the spell occupy a spell slot of higher level, but it does not actually change the spell’s level, except for Heighten Spell, which does increase the spell’s level. So long as the wizard in question has enough Intelligence to  cast the spell at its actual level (15 for the 5th-level teleport spell) the character can cast the  metamagic spell. Note that the character doesn’t have to use metamagic to use the 6th-level spell slot; the character can simply prepare any lower level spell in the slot.

Seems that for wizards effective ≈ actual level when talking about Heighten Spell(Power) MetaMagic(Psionic) Spell(Power) Level Increase.

Seems that Heighten Power + Metapower/Overchannel it's a legit (until disproven raw) to cast a "higher-level-then-the-ones-that-you-know" Power and thus enable Expanded Knowledge/Erudite Discipline Learning Trick, at least until 9th lv powers come in.

The last section you quoted actually did disprove this. Wizards effective spell level ≠ actual spell level under any circumstances. The section clearly states that it is to prepare a metamagic feat into a slot of higher level than the wizard has an intelligence score to use, but has access to by class levels. Any metamagic feat that simply changes the level slot of the power can still be used to cast spells from those slots just as if you were to use the slots to cast a lower level spell. However, heightened is an exception to this since a heightened spell is treated as a spell of that level. You must meet all requirements to cast a spell of the heightened spells level to cast it. Do you have the attribute score for it? Do you have the slot for it? if the answer to both questions is yes then you may cast the heightened spell. Feats that grant you a free bonus to heightened spells only require you to have the score and access to a slot of the level that the heightened spell will use. So a spell heightened to 6th and boosted to 7th by Earth Spell would only require the ability to cast a 6th level spell.

So while you can cast a spell heightened above your ability to cast through tricks like this. Your ability to cast does not change to accommodate. Your ability to cast spells of certain levels is directly determined by your class level. Psionics is no different. Heightening a spell past the level of spell or power past the level of spells or powers you actually have the ability to cast (regardless of any free bonus heighten tricks) does not grant you an increase in your ability to cast.

The erudite's ability to learn powers is still subject to your inherent ability to manifest powers as well. A heightend power is still only an Effective Level. The feat is explicit on this point. And an Effective Level is not an actual level, Effective Levels do not factor towards requirements for any feats, abilities, or class features. There are feats & prCs that allow you to stack actual levels in multiple classes to determine the effects of specific abilities, and items that allow you to treat your level in a class as X levels higher for determining the effect of a specific ability as well. The items do not grant you the ability to qualify for Feats or prCs through these means, nor do some of the feats. Most of the feats and prCs that stack class levels do allow you to qualify for other feats & prCs though. These work because they stack ACTUAL LEVELS.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 02:12:14 PM by faeryn »

Offline KellKheraptis

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Re: (Almost) Flawless Erudite
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2014, 02:27:34 PM »
...so reformat a <critter with 9th spell level casting, such as an ethergaunt> and pillage its brain for spells until you have all of them you want?  Even with the easily pyromancy'd straw men running about, it's not like we can't find ways to get -everything- on any given full caster.

By the way, Sor0, props for the Rainbow Savant trick.  That's just plain sexy.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: (Almost) Flawless Erudite
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2014, 02:36:25 PM »
Thx SorO_Lost for the FAQ/Errata link.
Quote from: Main35FAQv03142008
Snip
Quote from: MainFAQv06272003
Snip
Quote from: MainFAQv06272003
Snip
Quote from: MainFAQv06272003
Snip
Seems that...
...You quoted most of that from the 3.0 FAQ as evidenced of the 2003 date and "MainFAQv06272003.zip" opposed to "Main35FAQv03142008.zip" And as you opened two different PDFs, you were aware of this prior to posting. Also, 03-14-08 really? 06-30-08 was the last one they released.

Your welcome Kell.

Offline faeryn

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Re: (Almost) Flawless Erudite
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2014, 10:03:55 PM »
I do believe this part of the FAQ might shed some light on a few misunderstandings too
Quote from: Main35FAQv06302008
Can you use sanctum to pick a higher level spell than
normal with the Extra Spell feat?

No, you would need to use your class’s spellcasting
progression when picking the new spell learned via the Extra
Spell feat, not including the benefit of the sanctum spell or
similar effects.
I do believe this would set the same precedent for Psionics as well. And this would apply to the Erudites ability to learn new powers.

Offline 7h39

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Re: (Almost) Flawless Erudite
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2014, 03:00:21 AM »
I do believe this part of the FAQ might shed some light on a few misunderstandings too
Quote from: Main35FAQv06302008
Can you use sanctum to pick a higher level spell than
normal with the Extra Spell feat?

No, you would need to use your class’s spellcasting
progression when picking the new spell learned via the Extra
Spell feat, not including the benefit of the sanctum spell or
similar effects.
I do believe this would set the same precedent for Psionics as well. And this would apply to the Erudites ability to learn new powers.

Well referenced! Trick disproven :(

Offline faeryn

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Re: (Almost) Flawless Erudite
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2014, 03:44:02 AM »
I do believe this part of the FAQ might shed some light on a few misunderstandings too
Quote from: Main35FAQv06302008
Can you use sanctum to pick a higher level spell than
normal with the Extra Spell feat?

No, you would need to use your class’s spellcasting
progression when picking the new spell learned via the Extra
Spell feat, not including the benefit of the sanctum spell or
similar effects.
I do believe this would set the same precedent for Psionics as well. And this would apply to the Erudites ability to learn new powers.

Well referenced! Trick disproven :(

You can always use Expanded Knowledge feat to add any power of any level that you are capable of manifesting. And as has been mentioned a few times Psychic Chirurgery can be used to learn any power of any level you are capable of using as well. Regardless it's more expensive...

Unless your going into epic levels then the cost is worth it if you wait and obtain only your 9th level powers in this manor. If you are however going into epic levels, then once you gain access to Epic Psionics, then you will be able to use your Erudite class ability to add any 9th level power at the normal cost for an Erudite.

So depending on if your campaign is going into epic levels or not you may or may not want to invest in Psychic Chirurgery or spend feats on Expanded Knowledge to learn your 9th level Discipline powers.

I remember running across a feat in one of the source books as well that allowed a Psion to select a 2nd discipline that they may select powers from... I can't remember the name of the feat though or which book it's in... but if you can find it you may be able to convince your DM to let you use it on an Erudite... the Erudite is labeled as a "Psion Variant" after all... having 1 full Discipline to choose powers from freely on an Erudite would certainly be worth the feat.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: (Almost) Flawless Erudite
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2014, 02:53:50 PM »
That might be in a 3.0e section of Mind's Eye, but idk.

Erudite options in Mind's Eye, you can take Discipline on the feat trade, so the more recent understanding is the Psicrystal is also a bonus feat, hence also tradeable.  Were it strictly legal, then yes you could take the 2nd Discipline, but I don't think the designers were thinking of that possibility.  Reasonable on houserule though.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline 7h39

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Re: (Almost) Flawless Erudite
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2014, 03:23:19 AM »
I remember running across a feat in one of the source books as well that allowed a Psion to select a 2nd discipline that they may select powers from... I can't remember the name of the feat though or which book it's in... but if you can find it you may be able to convince your DM to let you use it on an Erudite... the Erudite is labeled as a "Psion Variant" after all... having 1 full Discipline to choose powers from freely on an Erudite would certainly be worth the feat.

That might be in a 3.0e section of Mind's Eye, but idk.

Ill' do a research about that!
Erudite options in Mind's Eye, you can take Discipline on the feat trade, so the more recent understanding is the Psicrystal is also a bonus feat, hence also tradeable.  Were it strictly legal, then yes you could take the 2nd Discipline, but I don't think the designers were thinking of that possibility.  Reasonable on houserule though.

Nice!!! like the Pathfider double discipline Psion (very nice addition imho with Psionic Knack to offset the loss of ML)