[3.5] Making a Warlock - My DM has gone crazy: Free +10LA

[Jackinthegreen]

Yes, Beast Strike would make your unarmed damage 2x base unarmed damage (no double strength bonus) + claw damage.  So if your unarmed damage was 1d8 and your claw damage was 4d6, your Beast Strike damage would be 1d8+1d8+4d6+1x strength mod (or 1.5x if you take Hammer Fist).  The claw damage might be able to be boosted by Improved Natural Weapon, but you'd have to work something out with your DM on it since EC obviously doesn't follow normal claw damage listings.

The typical understanding of Hellfire Warlock is it only allows Hellfire Blast (shortening to HB) to work on a "normal" Eldritch Blast.  "Normal" in this case is something that isn't Eldritch Claws, since Eldritch Claws is understood as a different ability that is only based on Eldritch Blast.  Can HB be used with Eldritch Blasts that had been shaped, such as with the Eldritch Chain or Eldritch Glaive shapes?  Yes, and the writing explicitly mentions Chain.  But since EC is not a shape and is not treated as a regular Eldritch Blast, it's not recognized as being subject to HB.

But that's the RAW argument.  Would it be reasonable to allow HB to work on EC?  Yup.  If your DM is fine with it (and you ought to present your DM with Hellfire Warlock's abilities and the EC feat to see what they think) then go for it, RAW arguments be damned (pun with Hellfire intended).

Snap Kick might work for getting an extra unarmed attack in the round, but whether it would benefit from Eldritch Claws is debatable and up to your DM I expect.

Magic in the Blood has some annoying regional and racial requirements, but given the game's power level it wouldn't be unbalancing to simply wave the prerequisites away and allow it on a half-fey character.

[faeryn]

Yes, Beast Strike would make your unarmed damage 2x base unarmed damage (no double strength bonus) + claw damage.  So if your unarmed damage was 1d8 and your claw damage was 4d6, your Beast Strike damage would be 1d8+1d8+4d6+1x strength mod (or 1.5x if you take Hammer Fist).  The claw damage might be able to be boosted by Improved Natural Weapon, but you'd have to work something out with your DM on it since EC obviously doesn't follow normal claw damage listings.

The typical understanding of Hellfire Warlock is it only allows Hellfire Blast (shortening to HB) to work on a "normal" Eldritch Blast.  "Normal" in this case is something that isn't Eldritch Claws, since Eldritch Claws is understood as a different ability that is only based on Eldritch Blast.  Can HB be used with Eldritch Blasts that had been shaped, such as with the Eldritch Chain or Eldritch Glaive shapes?  Yes, and the writing explicitly mentions Chain.  But since EC is not a shape and is not treated as a regular Eldritch Blast, it's not recognized as being subject to HB.

But that's the RAW argument.  Would it be reasonable to allow HB to work on EC?  Yup.  If your DM is fine with it (and you ought to present your DM with Hellfire Warlock's abilities and the EC feat to see what they think) then go for it, RAW arguments be damned (pun with Hellfire intended).

Snap Kick might work for getting an extra unarmed attack in the round, but whether it would benefit from Eldritch Claws is debatable and up to your DM I expect.

Magic in the Blood has some annoying regional and racial requirements, but given the game's power level it wouldn't be unbalancing to simply wave the prerequisites away and allow it on a half-fey character.

Since this campaign is meant to just be a fun little campaign between sections of our main campaign, I get the feeling my DM would have no problems letting me use HB with EC...

Snap Kick looks good, but unfortunately I most likely won't be allowed to take it. ToB is not allowed. I can ask my DM about allowing the feat though...

Question: would EC function with Rapidstrike & Rend?

[Snowbluff]

Yes for Rapid Strike. Same for Rend.

[faeryn]

Yes for Rapid Strike. Same for Rend.

This is shaping up to be some insane claw damage...

UAS primary attack for 2UAS+EB+Cha twice per round at +8/+3, EB as secondary attack for UAS+EB+½Cha twice per round at +8/+8, Rend for 2UAS+2EB+1½Cha... at +10BAB gain a 3rd EB at +5 with Rapidstrike...

If my DM allows it then all of those can be boosted with HB for even more damage and gain an extra UAS per round with Snap Kick... Plus the bonus 1d6 on the claw attacks from Beast Claws... I wonder if that bonus damage would factor into my UAS attack as well...

Depending on my DMs view of TWF with UAS, I could add even more damage per round by making Off-hand attacks with my UAS as well...

assuming I am able to add all of that together... that would lead to in a single full attack at +11BAB:
6 UAS = 2UAS+EB+HB+Cha
6 EB = UAS+EB+HB+½Cha
1 Rend = 2UAS+2EB+2HB+1½Cha
1 SK = 2UAS+EB+HB+½Cha

For a total of: 22UAS+14EB+14HB+12Cha...

[faeryn]

OK... so I picked up Magic of Incarnum today and looked through it to see if I could make any sense of soulmelds... and they actually seem relatively simple... so I went ahead and added Shape Soulmeld [Strongheart Vest] to my feats list to cover the con damage from Hellfire Blast. Reduced damage is not immunity so it does not prevent Hellfire Blast from being used. The abiltiy specifically states:

if you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability.

I Strongheart Vest does not make me immune, I can still receive Con damage, I just reduce it by 1 point.

My build thus far

Race:
Templates:
Classes: Battle Dancer:1/Warlock:4/Demonbinder:4/Hellfire Warlock:1
Flaws: Shaky & _____
Traits: _____
Feats: Eldritch Claws | Beast Strike | Rend | Multiattack | Improved Multiattack | Shape Soulmeld [Strongheart Vest]
Items: Beast Claws, Monks Belt, The Fanged Ring, Slippers of Battledancing
Base Attributes: Str:14 | Dex:16 | Con:18 | Int:16 | Wis:16 | Cha:18

To allow for Multiattack and Improved Multiattack I need a race/template combination that gives me any natural weapon besides claws... In addition to the previously established high Cha boost...

[SorO_Lost]

Strongheart Vest is a no go.
A: You are still technically immune to the Con Damage dealt.
B: It implies it works on attacks, twice, and "poison attack" exists in the rules which monstrous centipede's venom falls under.
C. FAQ says it's attack only and more specifically, Hellfire+Vest=No.

Just take a level of Binder for the ability to heal a point of Ability Damage each round. Oh sure it costs a level but you're just going to do lubricious amounts of damage by going Hellfire anyway so you're getting more than what you paid for. Then just polish the build off with Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion if you want more Hellfire damage.

Example: Battle Dancer 1 / Warlock 4 / Demonbinder 4 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Uncanny Trickster(hellfire) 3 / Legacy Champion(trickster) 4
It gives +20d6 Hellfire & six Skill Tricks (or feats, see adaption). You should easily have enough Damnation points to Daze a couple target too.

[faeryn]

Strongheart Vest is a no go.
A: You are still technically immune to the Con Damage dealt.

Damage reduction dose not equal immunity. Strongheart Vest does not grant you immunity to con damage. Reducing the damage received by 1 is not the same as being immune.

B: It implies it works on attacks, twice, and "poison attack" exists in the rules which monstrous centipede's venom falls under.
C. FAQ says it's attack only and more specifically, Hellfire+Vest=No.

It's really up to my DM as to if it works or not in all honesty. And given that this is meant to be a fun little mini-campaign, while we wait for him to finish up everything for the Epic Level section of our main campaign and try to get more players to show up again, he's not likely going to fuss about it either.

Just take a level of Binder for the ability to heal a point of Ability Damage each round. Oh sure it costs a level but you're just going to do lubricious amounts of damage by going Hellfire anyway so you're getting more than what you paid for. Then just polish the build off with Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion if you want more Hellfire damage.

Example: Battle Dancer 1 / Warlock 4 / Demonbinder 4 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Uncanny Trickster(hellfire) 3 / Legacy Champion(trickster) 4
It gives +20d6 Hellfire & six Skill Tricks (or feats, see adaption). You should easily have enough Damnation points to Daze a couple target too.

Uncanny Trickster to gain extra levels of Hellfire Warlock that don't actually exist won't fly with my DM though, and Legacy Champion is not available at our table.

[SorO_Lost]

Damage reduction dose not equal immunity. Strongheart Vest does not grant you immunity to con damage. Reducing the damage received by 1 is not the same as being immune.

It's ironic you called it damage reduction, because if DR negates the damage to an attack you're immune to all carrier effects that piggyback on it.

As for B & C, you can always ask and hope. It's a shame you can't use Uncanny Trickster through, Demonbinder I think progresses after the 1st fully, you could look at finishing it off after Hellfire if the game lasts that long I suppose. I can't recall, can you stack the bound bonuses?

[nijineko]

Half-fey is ridiculous for LA +2.

Start out as fey touched, then switch up to half-fey using the transition template for extra bonuses for very little LA boost.

[faeryn]

As for B & C, you can always ask and hope. It's a shame you can't use Uncanny Trickster through, Demonbinder I think progresses after the 1st fully, you could look at finishing it off after Hellfire if the game lasts that long I suppose. I can't recall, can you stack the bound bonuses?

I tried to extend another prC with Trickster before and he wouldn't permit it... said I can't gain class features in a class that doesn't have any levels to advance.

As for Demonbinder... I'm actually thinking about dropping it entirely... I can only bind one demon soul per day... a bound soul lasts until I bind another or are targeted by a banishment or dismissal spell... so unfortunately the effects don't stack since binding a second demon soul dismisses the first...

[SorO_Lost]

Demonbinder is ok in a Evil vs Good game. You lose one level of "casting", but the Warlock sucks in that department anyway, to basically obtain a Full-Round Action buff that for the rest of the Encounter everyone you hit with your Eldritch Blast must Save vs Daze - Daze is one of those nasty Save-or-Sucks that prevents creatures taking any actions. - And you can apply the Cone Shape to your EB to create a nice Area damage/CC effect.

But the fact it only works on none-evil targets massively limits it, there is also some other limitations like an HD limit & it expects highish Charisma but meh, so it works fine if you're out to battle the forces of good but totally worthless if you're fighting evil. So barring teh DM reversing Alignments, I would drop it unless you are expecting a lot of Neutrally Aligned mobs.

[faeryn]

Demonbinder is ok in a Evil vs Good game. You lose one level of "casting", but the Warlock sucks in that department anyway, to basically obtain a Full-Round Action buff that for the rest of the Encounter everyone you hit with your Eldritch Blast must Save vs Daze - Daze is one of those nasty Save-or-Sucks that prevents creatures taking any actions. - And you can apply the Cone Shape to your EB to create a nice Area damage/CC effect.

But the fact it only works on none-evil targets massively limits it, there is also some other limitations like an HD limit & it expects highish Charisma but meh, so it works fine if you're out to battle the forces of good but totally worthless if you're fighting evil. So barring teh DM reversing Alignments, I would drop it unless you are expecting a lot of Neutrally Aligned mobs.

I thought I had mentioned in the first post that this mini-campaign is as evil characters... and since I'm building for high Charisma I should have at least reasonable saves... I hope...

Also... I decided to go ahead and do a Phrenic Half-fey... still have a free +6LA to fill and need to decide on a base race... I'm thinking about using Tibbit as my base race though honestly...

[Sagroth]

How about Unholy Scion from Heroes of Horror(very end of book)?

+5 LA sure, but immunity to mind affecting and poison, elemental resistances, fast healing 4, darkvision, claw attack, DR, unholy damage(and even deal an extra 2d6 evil damage with eldritch claw/glaive against good opponents), SLAs, stat bumps, become an outsider, charisma to AC(!), your mom is your mind slave and can use SLAs in your stead etc etc, and the flavor is perfect for an evil campaign, as you're essentially Rosemary's Baby/Kid from the Omen all grown up.

[faeryn]

How about Unholy Scion from Heroes of Horror(very end of book)?

+5 LA sure, but immunity to mind affecting and poison, elemental resistances, fast healing 4, darkvision, claw attack, DR, unholy damage(and even deal an extra 2d6 evil damage with eldritch claw/glaive against good opponents), SLAs, stat bumps, become an outsider, charisma to AC(!), your mom is your mind slave and can use SLAs in your stead etc etc, and the flavor is perfect for an evil campaign, as you're essentially Rosemary's Baby/Kid from the Omen all grown up.

OOOOO.... I think that might be a winner... now I just need one more +1LA template...

Question though... How would you handle multiple instances of the same SLA from different sources and the Magic in the Blood feat? both Half-fey and Unholy Scion offer a couple of the same SLAs at 1/day... would I add the uses together? and if so do I add them before or after applying Magic in the Blood? If before I'd only get 2/day of those abilities if after I'd get 6/day, since MitB specifically only affects SLAs that are usable 1/day... or would they stack in an odd manor with MitB giving me 4/day?




BTW: Which book can I find information on the Binder Vestiges again? I found an alternative to taking a level dip into Binder... the Bind Vestige feat... on the off chance that my DM won't let me use Strongheart Vest to negate the con damage from Hellfire Blast I'll switch to it instead.

[phaedrusxy]

The abilities that the Bind Vestige feat gives you are a much more limited than what you'd get from the binder dip (and IIRC don't include fast ability healing for Naberius).

[faeryn]

The abilities that the Bind Vestige feat gives you are a much more limited than what you'd get from the binder dip (and IIRC don't include fast ability healing for Naberius).

I found the list for the feat... and your right... I only get Naberius's skills or Silver Tongue with the feat...


I have a second question regarding SLAs from Unholy Scion ontop of my earlier one... If I play a Tibbit as my base race then would that give me both Charm/Dominate Animal and Charm/Dominate Person depending on which form I am in?

[Nunkuruji]

Probably a completely different direction, but ignoring LA on Unbodied would be fun

[faeryn]

Probably a completely different direction, but ignoring LA on Unbodied would be fun

Not really worth it IMO... 4RHD +4LA would eat up 8 of my free +10LA for very little benefit... Yea 4RHD and being incorporeal is nice... but I think I'd rather take the benefits I'm getting from the combined +9LA from Phrenic/Half-fey/Unholy Scion...

[phaedrusxy]

Probably a completely different direction, but ignoring LA on Unbodied would be fun

Not really worth it IMO... 4RHD +4LA would eat up 8 of my free +10LA for very little benefit... Yea 4RHD and being incorporeal is nice... but I think I'd rather take the benefits I'm getting from the combined +9LA from Phrenic/Half-fey/Unholy Scion...

If you're already planning on being a Psion (Telepath), those are great racial HD, though.

[faeryn]

Probably a completely different direction, but ignoring LA on Unbodied would be fun

Not really worth it IMO... 4RHD +4LA would eat up 8 of my free +10LA for very little benefit... Yea 4RHD and being incorporeal is nice... but I think I'd rather take the benefits I'm getting from the combined +9LA from Phrenic/Half-fey/Unholy Scion...

If you're already planning on being a Psion (Telepath), those are great racial HD, though.

... but... I plan on being a Warlock... Phrenic happens to have too good of an overall benefit to pass up at only +2LA, while Unbodied is only really useful for a Psionic class build IMHO. Compared to what I'm already getting from the other 3 templates, Unbodied just isn't worth it for me, for my build...

I mean I'm trying to build a high Charisma Warlock... and so far it looks pretty good to me... Charisma to AC from Battle Dancer, Charisma as deflection bonus to AC from Unholy Scion, Charisma to Attack and Damage from Slippers of Battledancing, Charisma based save DCs on Invocations, Racial SLAs, and Racial PLAs, Charisma to Saves from an Invocation, and a fairly deadly UAS + Eldritch Claw attack set up...

The only real problem I see is having to move 10ft each round for Slippers of Battledancing to work...

I just need one more +1LA template that would benefit the build at this point honestly... and an alternative to Slippers of Battledancing if anyone knows of anything...