How to build a Min Max Pacifism PC

[movieholic1977]

To whom this concerns,

You guys and girls have always been awesome at putting the logic together for complex characters. Again i am tasked with creating another character who is to play when the current DM is out so they may see little playtime but we do what is asked of us.

The rules for this build are:

any character from 3.5 who is the best of their race, or class, or whatever.
Any level between 5 and 15
Starting Gold as a 15th Level Character which is 200,000
No item bought should be more than 50% of your total gold, so no item bought should exceed 100,000
The DM is a broken player so i hope that they will enjoy a broken pc
The DM also requested stoopid rules like "nothing over powered" which means something like do not have a character with 60 or more strength however if you can justify it then its ok....yeah these are difficult people to please
The setting is Greek, Eqyptian, Norse based
Heavily Religious on all counts
Dragons dont exist in primary 3 countries, they are mythical
Play alignment accordingly
Be smart about your character, make somethign i will enjoy

You are literally the best your respective country has to offer to explore this new area

No divine ranks
 

My goals are:

Is it possible to have double 9's ( 9th level arcane spells and 9th level divine spells by Level 15 )

If the above is true then can you post this build?

My other goals are:

Is it possible to make a Pacifism PC?

A Pacifism PC would take Apostle of Peace at 8th Level, have multiple vows going to stop any PC from killing the enemy unless they are helpless and so forth

They could also multi-class into Grey Guard for the loophole to bypass their Vows.

They could take Wonderworker for extra bonus spells.

They would probably be a Human Paragon which fits the theme of the campaign.

They could have any number of + 0 Level Adjustments.

You could use the "reborn dragon rules"

The other PCs are playing the same old things which means the party would consist of:

Spartan Fighter, Dread Pirate, Barbarian, Half-Elf Ranger, Another ranger run by the DM, a Psionic Character

So nothing Divine or Arcane cause they are weak minded and can't roleplay out of a paper bag.

Hence why i am choosing pacifism which should make the melee party actually think about their actions as well as provide possible double 9's as well as divine magic and arcane

I really tried to research Mystic Theurge but the combinations are so overwhelming to create double 9's by level 15 so again i am posting here to see your thoughts.


Thanks in advance,

Michael

[Raineh Daze]

Is it possible to have double 9's ( 9th level arcane spells and 9th level divine spells by Level 15 )

Unlikely in general (I forget specifics), but it would involve Ur-Priest. Which requires evil. Which definitely isn't pacifistic.

Is it possible to make a Pacifism PC?

Yes, but everyone will hate you for it.

[linklord231]

Actually, Apostle of Peace has its own accelerated casting like Ur-Priest.  It has its own spell list instead of using the Cleric's so it's not quite as good, but you could do something like Wizard 3/Master Specialist 2/Apostle of Peace 2/Mystic Theurge 10/Wizard PrC 3 to get double 9's at level 19 (the AoP 9's would come first at level 14). 

That being said, don't play an Apostle of Peace without talking to your party about it first.  It's just as bad, if not worse, than trying to play a Blackguard in a party that has a Paladin. 

[movieholic1977]

To Raineh Daze

If you become an "Ex-Ur Priest" then you gain all the same abilities as you leveled in the class but you take no penalties because your choosing to be good at least from now on. An ex ur priest is quite flavorful as it becomes an apostle of peace since its basically renouncing evil rather spell focus evil.

To everyone else

So you can get 9th level spells by 15th level but it would be a choice between divine and arcane?

Hard to say which would be better and all.

I am still leaning towards an Apostle since when we game, everyone is talking about random stuff and never truly focuses on the game only when the monster is beating on them do they kinda pay attention. I mean to say the old DM has grown bored sitting there waiting for the PCs to stop talking and most game days hours pass while everyone is off doing there own thing.

Its the worst campaign i have ever played but you always hope that it recovers. or someone casts miracle...

Given the above, forcing people to re=think their melee builds with a Pacifistic PC is quite funny and forces them to find ways around the pacifism, especially with spells like "end to strife" persisted 24 hours which says they take 20d6 damage for every attack they make as well as the enemy

how about we add in levels of Marshal which specifically says you get to choose which allies get the bonus and do not

and grey guard allows you to break your vows as long as you can justify it and then you pay a nominal fee afterwards which is laughable because apostle of peace take vow of poverty yet they can wear gear and grey guard would also allow them this as well

i really want to pacify as much as possible but any other suggestions on what would work to stop actions at the table?

thanks for the suggestions so far

[Raineh Daze]

I don't know how you'd meet all the requirements--at the least, by taking Ur-Priest, you can't get at Sacred Vow until level 18, let alone the other Exalted feats. And Apostle of Peace needs 10 ranks in Concentration, so you wouldn't be getting level 10 there until level... 17.

As for what you want to do: don't even bother. You're basically asking 'how can I be a dick because people aren't doing what I want them to'. Even more, if people have built for combat, and you then go and make that suicidal, you're taking away their ability to play.

[linklord231]

Oh woops, forgot Apostle of Peace requires 10 ranks in Concentration.  That means, as Raineh says, the earliest you could get AoP 9's is level 17. 

So you can get 9th level spells by 15th level but it would be a choice between divine and arcane?

No.  Even my initial build (which, as Raineh pointed out, is illegal) doesn't get Arcane 9's til 19.  There is no real-game-appropriate way to get Arcane 9's by level 15. 

Also, don't be a dick.  The people you're playing with are ostensibly your friends.  If the character you're planning makes it so they can't have fun, then you're being a dick and should stop. 

[movieholic1977]

Here's an easy build:

Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 4

Mystic Theurge adds + 4 to Ur Priest and + 4 to Wizard for spellcasting determination

Mindbender adds + 1 to Wizard for spellcasting determination

Reference ( Wiz 10 / Mind Bender 1 / Ur Priest 6 / M.T. 4 )

So that's Wiz 10 + Ur Priest 6 + ( 1/2 of 10 = 5 ) = 21st level spellcasting or 9th Level Arcane Spells

So thats  Ur Priest 6 + ( 1/2 of 21 = 10 ) = 16th level for Divine or 8th, 1 level short

The total levels spent is 12.

Is the math right? Very hard to say then its algebraic and bonuses on bonuses

I think its the earliest entry for double 9's

If the above is correct then at level 13 - 15 you take Apostle of Peace to begin cleaning up your act


Please review and use math to show where the many errors are


Hope this helps,

Michael

[Raineh Daze]

I don't have the faintest idea why you're adding half of your total levels to your casting ability. There's nothing that should be giving that sort of maths. You cast as a 10th level wizard and a 6th level Ur Priest, giving you 5th level Arcane and 6th level Divine.

Just drop the idea. Your reason for wanting to use it is to force other people to play how you want, rather than trying talking to them first. Ask if the people you play with would be okay with a Vow of Peace character; do not shove it down their throats so heavily optimised that they can't deal with it.

EDIT: Why is there half of 21 there. What.

[movieholic1977]

The math of this build is quite confusing

So lets scrap the old build and see if we can get dual 9's or 9th level arcane and divine spellcasting in as few levels as possible

Researching various builds online built around the Mystic Theurge prestige class we get this build

the 12th level build is:   Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 4

at this point we have to read the flavor text of each build and somehow put all these variables together, note there is ALOT of variables, but since its basic algebra its not too hard to follow

lets start with Wizard

a 5th level Wizard has: +2 BAB, +1 Fort, +1 Ref, +4 Will, a Bonus feat, and 3rd level Spellcasting
in order to add 1 level of Mindbender, you need some skills which are easily achievable, a use of a spell, and arcane caster level 5th...so far we meet the pre-reqs

in addition Mindbender adds:   +0 BAB, +2 Fort, +0 Ref, +2 Will, Telepathy at will, +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class

Those +2 Fort and +2 Will will be the needed pre-reqs for Ur Priest

So now we cast as a 6th level wizard and we meet the pre-reqs for Ur Priest

To be clear, lets presume we start with a 16 Intelligence, We are a Human Paragon, so thats 24 skill points at first level as well as 6 skill points per level, again easy math but providing it here cause there are a lot of skills to take at this junction
 
We have at least 4 feat slots available of which 2 are needed for additional requirements for Ur Priest

So skills are done as well as feats for qualification into Ur Priest

then we look at a single line that really over complicates things, "To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes. (Any levels gained in the cleric class by an ex-cleric don't count.)"

now the algebra begins

at this point we have a Wizard 5 / Mindbender 1 / Ur Priest 1

Mindbender bumps the Wizard to 6th level spell casting which is still 3rd level spells

The Ur Priest Casts Divine Spells so we get to figure out what level the Ur Priest casts at

Since we have an established 6th level wizard, we take 1 level of Ur Priest and add ( 1/2 of 6 = 3 ) so we have a 4th level Divine Caster Level

Reference:    Wizard 5 / Mindbender 1 / Ur Priest 1                      Arcane 6 / Divine 4

Since we are hoping are math and algebra are still corrrect we continue with the logic and add a second level of Ur Priest

Reference:    Wizard 5 / Mindbender 1 / Ur Priest 2                      Arcane 6 / Divine 5      ( 2 + ( 1/2 of 6 = 3 ) )   ( 2 + 3 = 5 )

Finally we end up with Mystic Theurge

Reference:    Wizard 5 / Mindbender 1 / Ur Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 1 

The Mystic Theurge adds an Arcane Level to Wizard
The Mystic Theurge adds a Divine Level to Ur Priest 

Now we re-calculate

Wizard 6 / Mindbender 1 / Ur Priest 3 / Mystic Theurge 1                              Arcane 7 / Divine ( 3 + ( 1/2 of 8 = 4 )   ( 3 + 4 = 7 )

Arcane 7 / Divine 7 i think a double bump has been added due to Ur Priest Math along with Mystic Theurge Math

In any ways we add 6 more levels to achieve a level 15 character

thats:    Wizard 5 / Mindbender 1 / Ur Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 7            15 levels

The Wizard gets 1 from Mindbender and becomes Wizard 6, then 7 more from Mystic Theurge and becomes 13 Arcane Caster

The Wizard also puts 7 Levels of Mystic Theurge into Ur Priest making it Ur Priest 9

We do the math to determine Divine Spell casting and we get, 1/2 of 13 = 6 + 9 = 15th level divine

Arcane 13 / Divine 15

I still think my math is off

but i think i did a reasonable job of explaining this

i am still unclear how to get dual 9's by 20th level but i think this is at least 9th level spells at 15 with a few more tweaks

MAIN QUESTION:

is there any other way that you see how to get dual 9's faster?

-thanks-

Michael

[Raineh Daze]

Wizard Casting: 7th Level Spells, CL 13.
Ur-Priest Casting: 9th Level (with sufficient WIS for Bonus Spells), CL 9+(1/2*6) = CL 12. Or if you want to go with stupid interpretations, 9+(1/2*13), which gives the CL 15.

Caster Level isn't tied to spells available. Just normally in step. CL Infinity (possible with loops) does not give you infinite slots.

To get dual 9th's, you'd just take MT for one more level for the sake of getting another 9th-level Ur-Priest slot, then Wizard until you have Arcane 9th's.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Yes, but everyone will hate you for it.

Trolling is for the good guys. 

For the neutrals, look up 'The anthropologist'. I think it was a carnivore build.

[faeryn]

I don't know how many times it's been clarified before, but your ability to cast X-level spells is tied directly to your class progression. Caster Level has no effect on the level of spells you can cast. And your Key modifier only sets a limit on your casting ability within the limits of your class levels.

There simply isn't any Arcane spellcaster who learns 9th level before 17th level, and all arcane/divine spellcasting theurge classes will set that back to 19th or 20th level.

There are a couple 3.0 Arcane prestige classes that have an accelerated arcane spellcaster progression, but they all stop at 5th level. Most of them when converted to 3.5 became half-progression of existing spellcasting though, others became full-progression of existing spellcasting.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Doing something like:  X 7 / Apostle Of Peace 4 / Gray Guard 10
... with X 7 that gets Lay On Hands and idk wtf support for the Vows.

That could work, since you're taking Epic Spells at level 21.


I might be possible to back hack SirP's caster level loop build,
to specialize in the Vows related spells.
Oddball version of partially Anti- Rocket Launcher Tag.

[Fredgerd]

Sha'ir 15 will get you 8th level Arcane and Divine spells... No weird builds required, get to 9th level spells in two levels.

Alternatively, Sha'ir is a good way to get mostly arcane spells but still qualify for a divine spell PrC and then go mystic theurge for the rest. Since Sha'ir qualifies you for both arcane and divine spells that will qualify you for the mystic theurge on its own, and then you just take one level of whatever 9th level divine PrC you want (Apostle of Peace of you want but that will slow down your acheiving 9th level spells because you can't take it till L8, as others have pointed out). Happy munchkining, and don't forget to where a hardhat to protect yourself from thrown books and dice.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

There simply isn't any Arcane spellcaster who learns 9th level before 17th level, and all arcane/divine spellcasting theurge classes will set that back to 19th or 20th level.

Beholder mage. Also my main-list triple 9's

[faeryn]

There simply isn't any Arcane spellcaster who learns 9th level before 17th level, and all arcane/divine spellcasting theurge classes will set that back to 19th or 20th level.

Beholder mage. Also my main-list triple 9's

I stand corrected... though under normal circumstances you're highly unlikely to find a PC qualifying for Beholder Mage. With house rules of "Race restrictions can be ignored" the class would either A) Be an exception, B) Gain a new set of requirements, or C) Result in every Arcane Caster who knows about the prC taking whatever fluff class at first then leveling as a Beholder Mage from 2nd and up

[movieholic1977]

Heres what i got so far from all your awesome helpful suggestions:

Level 1                Savant 1
Level 2                Savant 2                      I know all the skills, i can boost their skills, trap find
Level 3                Duskblade 1
Level 4                Duskblade 2                Wear armor along with enhancements
Level 5                Domain Wizard 1         Create or Choose a custom Domain to get the right spells
Level 6                Ur Priest 1                   This level creates my Divine Casting Abilities
Level 7                Mystic Theurge 1         Now i can choose to bump Domain Wizard and Ur Priest
Level 8                Ur Priest 2                   This allows me to get the calm emotions at will ability? which is good i think
Level 9                M.T. 2
Level 10              M.T. 3
Level 11              M.T. 4
Level 12              M. T. 5
Level 13              M.T. 6
Level 14              Apostle of Peace 1
Level 15              Apostle of Peace 2

Savant 2 / Duskblade 2 / Domain Wizard 1 (7) / Ur Priest 2 (8) / Mystic Theurge 6 / Apostle of Peace 2

Arcane Casting   8
Divine Casting     21

2 + 2 + 7 + 6 + 2 = 19 / 2 = 9 rounded down
9 rounded down + 8 = 17th level Casting 

What other tweaks / suggestions would you recommend?

My goal would be to Cast ( End to Strife ) a 9th Level Cleric Spell, I would like to know if i can Persist this ALL DAY Long, plus Maximize its Damage ( 20d6 ), plus cast it twice like a twinned spell or extend it or increase its range? or use any other tricks to make it deal insane damage or last longer and so on

My crazy logic would be that i am " helping the party " thru pacificism....if they attack us they die, or the archers can shoot outside my range, the fighters can move into position and if they provoke an attack on the enemy they die and i can suppress the spell if necessary or blink out or fly or whatever at this point to move a minimum of 80 feet away

i still want to do as much arcane damage as possible but i cant see what builds or classes are recommended at this point

my divine caster level is probably off as well but i am posting my math to see what else you think would be awesome

again my deepest thanks

for the love of the game,

Michael

[Raineh Daze]

... Why does Apostle of Peace have a spell that costs them their vows, and then consequently leads them to no longer fulfill their requirements, thus losing all spells?

End to Strife breaks Vow of Peace. Horribly so.

[movieholic1977]

Lets focus on the wording for a second before making harsh judgements

Apostle of Peace requires Vow of Peace as a pre-req, given this logic we must presume that the designer also designed the spells to go along with this

So to answer your question, "Why does Apostle of Peace have a spell that costs them their vows, and then consequently leads them to no longer fulfill their requirements, thus losing all spells? "

The answer is they do not.

You are not causing damage, the monster having been warned of its own volition and conscious chooses to harm itself

To fulfill your vow, you must not cause harm to any living creature (constructs and undead are not included in this prohibition).

You are not the monster is by choosing to attack

You may not deal real damage or ability damage to such creatures through spells or weapons, though you may deal nonlethal damage.

You can choose subdual damage

You may not target them with death effects, disintegrate, or other spells that have the immediate potential to cause death or great harm.

Kinda forces you to choose subdual

You also may not use nondamaging spells to incapacitate or weaken living foes so that your allies can kill them--if you incapacitate a foe, you must take him prisoner.

If you deal enough subdual damage even twice as needed your simply just knocking them out into unconsciousness and helplessness

Lets quote the SRD

Staggered and Unconscious

When your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered. You can only take a standard action or a move action in each round. You cease being staggered when your current hit points once again exceed your nonlethal damage.
When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless.

Spellcasters who fall unconscious retain any spellcasting ability they had before going unconscious.

You are not breaking it, they choose to be stoopid however with a gun pointed at them so to speak

If you intentionally break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it. If you break your vow as a result of magical compulsion or otherwise unwittingly, you lose the benefit of this feat until you perform a suitable penance and receive an atonement spell. (Characters who have taken a Vow of Peace are known to drink water through a strainer in order to avoid accidentally swallowing, and thereby causing harm to, a small insect.)

Because End to Strife is an AREA Spell, you can use Metamagic to Adjust it....So Sculpt Spell works fine with it, and since you can choose to sculpt you get greater options and control

hopefully this clears up some confusion since you get to attack by not attacking because if the monster is stoopid enough then you allow them to kill them into helplessness which is just too funny

questions?

[Raineh Daze]

Your logic is terrible and fails to take into account how badly-edited this book is. By the logic you're using, it's fine to set up a delayed fireball trap after taking Vow of Peace, because you aren't responsible, the monster is--it walked into it! You can be a villain--it's only if you attack that you're doing something wrong, so clearly giving all your minions explosive collars that kill them if they disobey you wouldn't break a Vow of Peace.

You cast the spell; you're the one who causes the damage. The monster isn't 'hitting itself', nor would any allies that forget. You can't cast a spell that causes 20d6 damage and act like you aren't responsible because something else is totally unaware of the conditions of the spell.

Hiding behind 'they wrote the book so clearly it should work with these things' gives you Apostles of Peace who have Vow of Poverty but can own expensive magical items, can cast spells that deal huge damage even though they've vowed to not... yeah, the class is a mess. Wizard is about as far from infallible as you can get: errata exists for a reason.

Basically: Apostle of Peace shouldn't have End to Strife. It doesn't fit with the whole 'do no harm' principle of the class. 70 damage per attack doesn't fit with being a pacifist. Enough damage to make chunky salsa out of a group of angry farmers does not belong near Vow of Peace.