Spell Points for Pathfinder

[Magrus]

I started a project back in the 3.5, pre 4th edition era to rework the UA Spell Point system into something that doesn't suck for casters. I sat down and did the math way back when, and saw what it actually cost all casters to go from the standard spell slot system, to port to the UA spell slot system. Somewhere starting around 33% and then sliding higher depending on the class (full 9th level ones anyhow, didn't check the Bard/Paladin/Ranger ones). Trading over 1/3 of your spell power daily in exchange for flexibility just made me wave the thing off as a player and DM.

I have been hemming and hawing over if I would bother for PF, and how I might go about it. Free time today made me wonder where I might take this. Starting off simply, and look at how Dreamscarred Press did their Psionic rehash. First things first, the Psion is the equivalent of the Wizard, and the Wilder, essentially a tweaked Psionic Sorcerer. However, if I were to simply port the PP progression from Psion to Wizard which is easy, and attempt to do the same to Sorcerer there are two very big issues.

1. Wilder gets the same amount of PP as the Psion.
2. Sorcerers ultimately get 50% more slots than Wizards in exchange for some penalties. (Limited spells known, Full Round MM, 1 level later access to higher tier spells)

If we take a look at the psion: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psion
The power points start at 2, and cap out a 343.

I did the math quickly for a simple 50% bump from this to possibly be applied to the Sorcerer: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1054K4gHtZEpotZgA-uSEdXCOJ9KndqkIVqm8oNm5vkU/edit?usp=sharing

However, we come up with absurd numbers. This is a worry for me, and hence one I am looking to shelve as a concept unless I can't come up with something better. Before I do though, how badly would a player with a sorcerer using the PP system with ^ that many Spell Points be able to break a game? Assuming we don't have the Psionic Augmentation, overchannel, and you are still limited by Caster Level, must pay to scale spells beyond the base caster level needed to cast them (Fireball is 5 SP, a 10th caster level Fireball is 10 SP), Metamagic additions cost points, etc.

Your Typical Sorcerer: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer at level 20 can cast 54 spells per day outside of Cantrips, Attribute bonus slots, and those granted from magic Items.

With this port, 514 base at level 20 Spell Points becomes available. Assuming this, a possible spell list for a sorcerer of cast, using 6 as the cap for each spell level:

1: [55 SP] Shield x2 (2 SP), Mage Armor (CL 20, 20 SP), Magic Missile x3 (CL 11, 33 SP)
2: [78 SP] Resist Energy (CL 11, 11 SP), Mirror Image x2 (CL 12, 24 SP), Scorching Ray x3 (CL 11, 33 SP), Glitterdust (CL 10, 10 SP)
3: [77 SP] Fireball, Intensified+Empowered x2 (CL 21, 42 SP), Displacement x2 (CL 10, 20 SP), Fly (CL 5, 5 SP), Haste (CL 10, 10 SP)
4: [76 SP] Black Tentaclesx2 (CL 12, 24 SP), DD (CL 7, 7 SP), G. Invis (CL 20, 20 SP), Boneshatter (CL 15, 15 SP), Wall of Fire (CL 20, 20 SP)

Hitting 4th level spells, I have used all but 228 of his SP. Still with 5 levels to go. Granted, I can scale down things like Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Black tentacles, Wall of Fire, G. Invisibility. Make those fireballs cost 20 SP instead of 42 without the MM feats. Would significantly drop use of spells. However, this is very near to the entire pool of class granted points a 20th level Psion is granted, the above list. Making me worry far less about the power of having 500+ SP as a Sorcerer as *overpowered* and wondering what I need to do in order to rework this system into a viable one.

Auto-scaling for spells, with simply paying for Metamagic feats as usual for spells? Add spell level, then pay the spell level in SP as normal? So my Intensified and Empowered Fireballs cost 11 each instead of 21. My Scorching Rays are 3 each, and my G. Invis is 5 instead of 20. This puts all of the above level 1-4 spells at 96 spent as opposed to 286. Using a simple the spells cost the base PP for Power level rate of Psionics, a full battery of 6 spells of each level 1-9 costs 432 Spell Points using this method. Granting the Sorcerer an extra 80 SP before we add in magic items and attribute scaling. Which, a 20th level caster with say, 30 Charisma is slotted to gain 100 extra SP using this method. So 180 extra SP after the full array of 9 levels of 6 spells each is cast. That is 6 extra 9th level spells, 6 8th, and 1 5th. For 6, 6, 7, 6, 6, 6, 6, 12, 12 spells per day.

This is getting long and my brain is fried for the moment. So going to step away for a bit with the following questions:

1. Has anyone here attempted something like this before? If so, input please?
2. Thoughts on whether I should can the PP/Psionics transfer concept and just make my own system instead? Or is there merit to tweaking it to fit the rest of the magic using classes?
3. Any ideas for me to throw together for my project? Brain is fried after all of the math, will be getting back to this but need to step away and the creativity I had going into this died after crunching all of the numbers. Need to recharge, so if this provokes any inspiration in the lot of you, I am ears.

Thanks for reading, and for those who reply!

[StreamOfTheSky]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15043304&postcount=32

All that I have to say on the matter, really.

[Magrus]

Lol, well, augmentation like in Psionics would be out, first of all. You cast the spell, and it costs SP, no increasing effects by spending more SP outside of Metamagic. That part isn't changing in the core magic system. Just how you handle spells being spent from your pool of available spell power daily. Slots vs Points.

Second of all, the wizard would still prepare spells available for the day with slots per level in order to have "known" for that day. Yes, this turns them into an almost sorcerer, but the sorcerer can't swap spells each morning, the wizard can. Altering what is stored in his mind daily to fit the groups needs. Sounds win/win for the wizard to me. The Sorcerer would get more points, and the example I ran through above showed my hesitancy on the matter. How to balance this with the two methods put forward above.

Third of all, you didn't read my post, as I am working on something outside of the useless UA system. Hence, prepared would get less than spontaneous. So yeah, agreed with you on the UA spell point system from way back. Do you have something constructive to say currently to someone who is looking to actually build a system if need be for his players? As what you stated there are good points, but beyond the rage and the outdated information, I have players who would like this. I do not want to give them a gimped system that hobbles their characters and am honestly curious for input. If that is all you have, it's information that doesn't apply in this situation as I am not using that system you were frothing at the mouth over.

Edit: I have updated my google drive spread sheet with a simplistic transfer of Slots to Spell Points for each level of the classes I am allowing in my current game I am running. I broke down each slot into the equivalent PP cost from the Dreamscarred press Psionic system. Then went through the chart, did the math, and added it up into a list. Then went through with the extras, ala Domain and Specialist granted slots, then Attribute granted slots.

This seems the simplest method. At the end of the day, you have the same raw amount of magical energy for each class, just more flexibility in how it is doled out. Allowing for variances depending on the situation as needed. Anyone who is interested, would appreciate feedback on how this might unbalance my game. Link again: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1054K4gHtZEpotZgA-uSEdXCOJ9KndqkIVqm8oNm5vkU/edit?usp=sharing

Note, I am not allowing the augmentation that Psionics allows. I am just straight auto-scaling these spells, paying the cost (1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17) as a spell of its appropriate level. Metamagic feats increase Spell Level as normal, which in turn increases the cost. IE, Empowered Fireball is a 9 SP cost spell as it is a 5th level spell.

The only issue inherent with this setup that I foresee straight away without playing with distribution of points by casting: the bonus points granted for high ability scores. Will need to allocate them based on Spell Level access I believe. IE, a 1st level Human Wizard with a 20 Intelligence does not gain 26 Spell Points as a bonus from Intelligence. He gains 1 at level 1, 4 at level 3, 9 at level 5, 16 at level 7, and 26 finally at level 9. My chart does not reflect this yet, taking a break, but will eventually.

A player suggests having Prepared casters simply pay SP to prepare their spells from their spellbooks/while praying etc. This seems the simplest method to retain the Prepared feeling and maintain balance, so running with that.

Thanks for those who reply.