Level 20 Dual Wielding Hand Crossbow Rogue (3.5) **NOT NEW, BUT IMPROVED**

[Defensor Pacis]

I've been working on this build for a while, more of a gimmick than anything, but I like where I've taken it. It's not a terrible build, by any means, but it's nothing game breaking either.
Obviously, criticism and advise is more than welcome. The two things that are guaranteed to stay is Psychic Rogue 11 and Monk 2. The other 7 levels I am unsure about, and will just fill in with something I consider to be "not that bad" right now.

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32 point buy
10, 18, 12, 16, 8, 8
Adjusted
8, 20, 14, 16, 8, 6
Final
13, 34, 19, 27, 13, 11

Race: Whisper Gnome

Template: Dark Creature +1 LA (buy off at level 3)

Monk ACF: Chaos Monk, Martial Monk, Invisible Fist
Psychic Warrior ACF: Mantled Warrior, Freedom Mantle (For Dimension Hop)

Number of Feats: 16

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Class levels
1 - Psychic Rogue 1
2 - Chaos Monk 1
3 - Chaos Monk 2
4 - Psychic Rogue 2 - +1 Int
5 - Psychic Rogue 3
6 - Psychic Rogue 4
7 - Psychic Rogue 5
8 - Psychic Rogue 6 - +1 Int
9 - Psychic Rogue 7
10 - Psychic Rogue 8
11 - Psychic Rogue 9
12 - Psychic Rogue 10 - +1 Dex
13 - Psychic Rogue 11
14 - Psychic Rogue 12
15 - Psychic Rogue 13
16 - Psychic Rogue 14 - +1 Dex
17 - Fighter 1
18 - Fighter 2
19 - Psychic Warrior 1
20 - Psychic Warrior 2 - +1 Dex

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Feats
Level 1 - Monastic Training (Psychic Rogue)
Level 1 [Flaw 1] - Two Weapon Fighting
Level 1 [Flaw 2] - Unorthodox Flurry (Hand Crossbow)
Level 2 [Monk 1] - Ranged Weapon Mastery
Level 3 [Monk 2] - Hand Crossbow Focus
Level 3 - Tashalatora
Level 6 - Able Sniper
Level 9 - Darkstalker
Level 12 - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Level 15 - Craven
Level 16 [Psychic Rogue 14] - Penetrating Strike
Level 17 [Fighter 1] - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Level 18 - Point Blank Shot
Level 18 [Fighter 2] - Crossbow Sniper
Level 19 [Psychic Warrior 1] - Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
Level 20 [Psychic Warrior 2] - Rapid Shot

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Powers

Level 1
Empty Mind
Compression
Control Light
Dimension Hop

Level 2
Animal Affinity
Chameleon
Concealing Amorpha

Level 3
Dimension Slide
Hustle
Telekinetic Force

Level 4
Psionic Freedom of Movement
Psionic Dimension Door

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Skills of note - Hide, Concentration, Move silently, Spot, Listen, others depending on goal, focus, or party. You could even pick up Craft (Alchemy) if you feel like throwing some poisons into the mix, but they're not needed.

Special abilities/qualities of note: Hide in Plain Sight(via the Dark Creature template), in addition to the level 11 rogue ability Skill Mastery which lets you take 10 on selected skills(see above) in combat.

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Items of Note
Helping Hand; Reloads your hand crossbows for you - get this ASAP. And start out on your Rogue's Ring with Continuous Blur so you can hide in combat.
15xGate Scrolls, used to summon an Efreet. 2 wishes for you, 1 wish for them. Rinse and repeat to get +5 Inherent to all stats
Two Long Range Hand Crossbows - Depends on the gold you have to throw around. +5 as well as Splitting, Distance, and Keen is a personal favorite of mine.
Gloves of Dexterity +6; Third Eye Sense; Amulet of Second Chances; Bracers of the Hunter; Wings of Flying; Headband of Intellect +6
Rogue's Ring - Continuous: Blur, Hawkeye, Raptor's Sight, Sniper's Shot. Command: Quickened Assassin's Darkness

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The play style is simple - stay hidden and rain down arrows on the enemy from (moderately)vast distances.
Full attack is as follows: Main hand +43/+38/+33/+28, Off hand +43/+38/+33/+28, Flailing Strike(minimum 1, maximum 6) +43/+43/+43/+43/+43/+43, Rapid Shot +43. And then double all of those, because of Splitting. That's a grand total of 30 arrows every round, doing 180d6+1050(average 1680, 840 on immune) sneak attack damage provided they all hit. If something SOMEHOW sees you, use invisibility granted by monk + Dimension Hop to get 75 feet away, and still be able to make a full attack while being hidden. You really are a glass cannon, though, and that's why you want to have a lot of movement based abilities. If worse comes to worse, you can teleport as move with augmented Dimension Hop without provoking attacks of opportunity, then as a standard with Dimension Door to get 1,000 feet away.
You have one real weakness: fighting in broad daylight(can be circumvented via Assassin's Darkness).
Provided that you have a Ring of 3 Wishes, and some time, you can kill a Tarassque by yourself with little to no problem.

Much has been edited, and I will continue to fiddle with the build as suggestions are made.
Also, is there an easy way to get another +1 to my odd ability scores? I really do hate having uneven numbers.

[Jackinthegreen]

What books and such are available to you?  If Dragon Mag is allowed then the Targetteer fighter in Dragon 310 gets Dex to damage with ranged weapons, but that's in place of a feat.  There's also the Crossbow Sniper feat that adds 1/2 Dex to damage with crossbows.

Note that because Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting is an Epic feat it cannot be taken at 18th level.  It can only be taken after the character is actually in Epic levels, thus 21+.

Simply having a 20 level build does not make it Epic.  It must be 21 or higher to qualify.

A lot of things are entirely immune to Sneak Attack at that level due to type or simply magical effects.  If you have ways of getting around that such as weapon crystals then it's useful, but that can take a lot of money and other investment.

How many ACFs have you looked at?  Here's the stuff not in Dragon Mag and here's the stuff in Dragon Mag.  You'll likely find something interesting in there.

[Defensor Pacis]

Everything is available with approval, although he's generally less likely to be okay with Dragon Mag, because they are generally over powered. I had Crossbow Sniper in my build prior, but I just couldn't figure out what to drop for it, and in the end, I opted for going over it entirely.
My DM allows Epic feats as long as you meet the pre-reqs, which is why Perfect TWF made it onto the list.
The two other feats I'm considering are 1/2 sneak attack damage on creatures immune, and Darkstalker for obvious reasons, in situations where I couldn't get out of range of their ability.

[Rebel7284]

Needs more factotum 8 for extra actions.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

  ... you're not trying to  all those 5e dual hxbow doubters, are you ?!

 


Diablo 3 thingie , specifically called Dual Wield Crossbows

[Jackinthegreen]

How are you getting Sneak Attack damage to work past 30 feet?

[Defensor Pacis]

Continuous Sniper's Shot on a ring. ( Spell level[1] * Caster Level[1] * 2000gp) = 2000gp * Measured in Rounds[x4] = 8000gp * Multiple Effects[1.5x] = 12000 gp for sneak attack from any distance.
Although I'm well aware that whether or not you can make continuous spells with a duration of "round" instead of "rounds" is debated, my DM is a kind and merciful God. Even if a DM rules against it, you could make it a command item with Swift activation, although then since you can't have another Swift action, you can't escape with Dimension Hop, but if you're damaging, you probably don't need to run anywhere at the moment, anyway.

... you're not trying to  all those 5e dual hxbow doubters, are you ?!

Kind of, but I'd just wanted to try doing this for a while. There's actually another way to make it work that doesn't involve having hands coming out of your waist, and that's Unseen Servant. While useful, I opted for the Helping Hand since it can't be spotted and "killed." Also, if you use one of your teleport abilities, they're going to take a while to catch up to you, and no one wants that.
But yeah, I liked the Demon Hunter in Diablo 3. That's not why I made this build, not entirely anyway. I just don't like the standard two handed bow or crossbow route, and wanted an alternative.

[zugschef]

Note that because Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting is an Epic feat it cannot be taken at 18th level.  It can only be taken after the character is actually in Epic levels, thus 21+.

The rogue bonus feat doesn't care about prereqs, though.

[TML]

I assume your DM okayed gate scrolls and not candles of invocation (which do the same thing cheaper)?


Regardless... well, new account, I can't resist doing this.  I hope you guys forgive me.

The main problem I see with your build is walls.  Fortunately...

Ghost Touch

A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.

Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, plane shift; Price +1 bonus.

Let's say you're incorporeal as well, wielding ghost touch weaponry.  You shoot your incorporeal weaponry, which phases through walls and materializes just in time to hit your target.

Serren wood is automatically ghost touch, and really cheap.  All you have to do is figure out a way to be incorporeal, and you can snipe without worrying about cover.

There are also a couple of other spells (brilliant energy weapon and woodwisp arrow) that let you enchant weapons to shoot through things, but I prefer this method.

You might also want to look at the rituals from Lords of Darkness - the Ritual of Shadow Walking (page 120ish... away from books, it's been a while) lets you teleport through shadows at the cost of a few points of con damage each time.  With some way to reduce, heal, ignorr, or offset the damage, you're good to go.

[Jackinthegreen]

Note that because Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting is an Epic feat it cannot be taken at 18th level.  It can only be taken after the character is actually in Epic levels, thus 21+.

The rogue bonus feat doesn't care about prereqs, though.

PTWF is not being taken as a rogue bonus feat here, thus that part wasn't mentioned.

Besides that, the notion that rogue "bonus feats" ignore prerequisites is nebulous because it does not say either way.  The ability itself isn't titled "bonus feat" but instead simply says: "Feat: A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability."  A lot of things called "bonus feat" in some sense do explicitly say whether they ignore prerequisites and the closest thing to a pattern that can be found on those is if it's a bonus feat from a very limited list (such as two or three feats) then it's more likely to ignore prerequisites.  There is not an absolute pattern to how bonus feats are handled because WotC didn't have their shit together enough to put down strict rules for that.

It's up to the DM on whether rogues taking feats in place of special abilities would be able to ignore prerequisites for those feats.  The language used in the ability coupled with the inconsistencies regarding bonus feats mean it cannot strictly be determined.

[JaronK]

It's only racial bonus feats that ignore prerequisites automatically (Monster Manual rules).  For class gained bonus feats, prerequisites are required (as per page 87 of the PHB) unless otherwise stated.

Now, Monk bonus feats explicitly ignore prerequisites, but you can't get Perfect Two Weapon Fighting that way, as the best you can do there is Martial Monk for any Fighter Bonus Feats without prerequisites.

Anyway, isn't Hand Crossbow Focus a bit too late in the build?  Seems to me you'd need it a lot earlier than that, unless you're starting at level 20 and not building up to it.

JaronK

[Jackinthegreen]

It's been explicitly noted here that PTWF is being allowed so long as the character meets prereqs other than Epic levels.  So that works out.

As far as Hand Crossbow Focus goes, it might be taken later due to the Helping Hand reloading the crossbows?

[zugschef]

A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.

A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it meets the prerequisites.

[Defensor Pacis]

A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.

A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it meets the prerequisites.

Hmm.. If I dropped Shadow Mind and just grabbed 3 more levels PsyRogue, that'd give me an extra feat, I'd retain my Sneak Attack, I'd get 1 more Manifester Level, and I'd get access to another 4th level power.
Sign me up! I didn't even consider that, actually. Cheers. Gonna tweak the build a little bit to reflect changes.

[Jackinthegreen]

A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.

A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it meets the prerequisites.

Said wording does not mean all bonus feats ignore prerequisites.  It simply means that a creature can't have a feat it doesn't meet the prerequisites for unless the feat is a bonus feat.

Many bonus feats do ignore prerequisites, but not all of them.  Again, given rules precedent there is no way to conclusively rule it either way.  It is up to the DM on how to handle it for any given campaign.

[TML]

It depends on whether or not your rogue is a 'monster'.  If he is, then you handle him with the MM, and bonus feats ignore prereqs.

So burn down an orphanage, kick some puppies, and THEN take Gape of the Serpent.

[Defensor Pacis]

It depends on whether or not your rogue is a 'monster'.  If he is, then you handle him with the MM, and bonus feats ignore prereqs.

So burn down an orphanage, kick some puppies, and THEN take Gape of the Serpent.

Why would I want Gape of the Serpent..?

[zugschef]

It depends on whether or not your rogue is a 'monster'.  If he is, then you handle him with the MM, and bonus feats ignore prereqs.

So you think a rogue NPC gets to pick any feat he wants with this class feature but a PC does not?

[TML]

It depends on whether or not your rogue is a 'monster'.  If he is, then you handle him with the MM, and bonus feats ignore prereqs.

So burn down an orphanage, kick some puppies, and THEN take Gape of the Serpent.

Why would I want Gape of the Serpent..?

So you can swallow orphans whole, duh.

If you were a monster, you'd understand that.

[Defensor Pacis]

For anyone and everyone that cares, I made quite a few adjustments. Tossed out some of the feats I could live without, picked up Darkstalker and Penetrating Strike to counter some of the build's real weaknesses, and actually was able to get more attacks and more damage by picking up some better feats, as well as the Chaos Monk version of Monk.
Overall, I think the build is considerably better than it was before. If anyone has any more advice or reccomendation, I would appreciate it greatly. I'm playing with this right now, although I'll actually be leveling through it. Should be fun.