Author Topic: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?  (Read 38631 times)

Offline Darbius Maximus

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2014, 05:40:25 AM »
2: Elemental styles not restricted to fire or requiring contact with the earth
Refluff it.

9: Lack of PrC's
So lack of supplement supplements?

13: more supernatural abilities
So lack of supplement supplements?

14: could be used to replace archaic combat mechanics
Yes, yes it could. Is this a complaint of an observance of awesome?

16: move away from wuxia flavor
Flavor is what you make of it.

20: Solve the errata issue.
God I wish...

Yeah the eratta is funky but that's not the immediate issue. Wizards wanted to make melee more comparable to magic. they somewhat succeeded, but the supernatural-kung-fu flavor I have seen just ruin it/cause table flipping rage for people... then again most of my friends are kinda dicks...

It does feelt acked on with not being expanded upon much but most things can at elast dip into it so you're bound to see it often enough; whether or not this is just because it is awesome or just a big enoguh step above is up to personal view.

Flavor...

Re-flavoring...

What do you think all the homebrew Disciplines here are for? Being finally able to use these options yet relegated to DM is giving me the shakes for some expanded TOB action.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2014, 06:52:37 PM »
I think most of the test balloons in the OP are kind of off-base.  And, I'm going to bracket lack of support b/c this is a product that came out towards the end of 3E's product life.  And, a controversial one, to boot, for silly reasons, but nonetheless.

One actual flaw to me, which might be related to the lack of support, is just that the TOB designers were very ... let's say cautious, with what they allowed Maneuvers to do.  Like, if you compare what a Maneuver of level X can do with spells of level X, even confining things to similar types of abilities (i.e., compare spells that grant attacks or deal damage to Maneuvers, rather than trying to evaluate how powerful Solid Fog and Slow are), the Maneuver's results end up being kind of tepid. 

Part of this is undoubtedly do to having such a vast panoply of spells available that I can cherry-pick to find the best most awesome ones for whatever purpose I intend.  But, it puts TOB characters in a weird spot. 

Compared to "pure" "martial" characters, they are much more interesting to play.  That's a big plus.  On the other hand, given a reasonable amount of charopp, they often lag behind in major martial things, notably damage.  Well-built Swift Hunters and Uberchargers and so on do way more damage than TOB characters.  Although, yes, of course, some of those can be combined with TOB to greater and lesser degrees.

On the other hand, compared to a pure caster or even a gish, they tend to do less damage and have less versatility.  I guess this last point is the one I should have led with:  when considering a concept I often find some flavor of gish (including psi-gish) is often just so much better than the TOB build I had in mind.  Which is a shame since I really like TOB. 

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2014, 10:01:43 PM »
And still most of the list boils down to more ToB.

Also #27 is wrong, good ole GitP right?
Combat wise Cloak of Deception lasts until the end of your turn and as a Swift Action it can only be used on your turn, the only defensive benefit you gain is you don't (normally) provoke AoOs during your turn which is nothing to the scale of Total-Concealment when it's not your turn. Offensively it's +2 to hit vs Flat-Footed which is an increase in accuracy not Encounter ending damage bonus.

Burning Blade is 1st level and they forgot it deals an additional +1 per IL. So, ummm... Yeah...

Offline Garryl

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2014, 10:18:30 PM »
And still most of the list boils down to more ToB.

Also #27 is wrong, good ole GitP right?
Combat wise Cloak of Deception lasts until the end of your turn and as a Swift Action it can only be used on your turn, the only defensive benefit you gain is you don't (normally) provoke AoOs during your turn which is nothing to the scale of Total-Concealment when it's not your turn. Offensively it's +2 to hit vs Flat-Footed which is an increase in accuracy not Encounter ending damage bonus.

Burning Blade is 1st level and they forgot it deals an additional +1 per IL. So, ummm... Yeah...

27: Poor balance of manevuer levels (granting greater invisibility as a second level shadow hand boost outweighs the horrible +1d6 fire damage to weapons stance of a higher level desert wind manuever)

They're talking about the 6th level stance, Fiery Assault, no? That's a flat +1d6 fire damage with melee attacks.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 12:19:24 PM by Garryl »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2014, 11:57:16 PM »
That's a Stance through. >.<

Devoted Spirit's 8th is 3/round Fort Save vs negative HP, actually kind of nice.
Diamond Mind's 8th is actually pretty nice, +1 Counter per round.
Iron Heart's 8th is DR 5/-.
Setting Sun's 8th level an opponent can accidentally attack an adjacent target if they miss you due to Miss Chances (but supplies none).
Shadow Hand's 8th is Air Walk, but you fall when it's not your turn.
Stone Dragon's 8th, immunity to crits, unless you move 5ft.
Tiger Claw's 8th, each successful attack lets you move 5ft, but counts against your Speed.
White Raven's 8th, +5 to attack rolls against your adjacent opponents, but your allies benefit from this not you.

Getting the picture yet? Seven out of the nine of them suck balls even at the 5th level or so. Stances are deliberately weaker than Strikes & Counters which are weaker than Spells. Everything cycles back to the more often you can use them the weaker it is.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2014, 01:01:24 PM »
Everything cycles back to the more often you can use them the weaker it is.
Yeah, I think this is the nub.  This the paradigm in 3E D&D.  But, in practice, once you've got a couple of levels under your belt, per day limitations don't bite too much.  At least not for major class abilities (i.e., once per day is a real limitation, but spell slots per day isn't much of one).  And, there are panoplies of magic items available to mitigate these limits.

On the other hand, per encounter limitations matter a great deal.  And, TOB has one of the best, perhaps the best, system for implementing those in all of 3E D&D. 

The end result, though, is that Maneuvers end up being subpar compared to spells, even comparing like to like.  And, the TOB classes also have to juggle all the other difficulties of being melee dudes, such as MAD.  So, I end up feeling like Maneuvers should just be substantially more effective at what they purport to do.

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2014, 06:47:05 PM »
My three main problems are

1) I despise the wuxia flavor and wowzers language and descriptions. (I really appreciate the mechanics and even more so the intent of the book).

2) It is seen as grossly overpowered in nearly any group or campaign I've ever been in. Even above and beyond the (false) reputation that psionics to often has.

3) The timing. I wish the mechanics would have been incorporated into the core rules.   

Offline zugschef

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2014, 01:55:24 AM »
Tob mechanics are mostly shitty. As somebody else has already said it makes a differende if you go fighter19/warblade1 or warblade1/fighter19. Also the fact that strikes don't care about iterative attacks. Also a maneuver fulfilling its own prerequisite makes my head spin. Then the skill check vs. save mechanic is so obviously broken that i don't get how that didn't get cut.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 01:58:26 AM by zugschef »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2014, 11:59:40 AM »
Someone hates the ToB.

Yes, generally Skills-to-Saves are broken, it let's a Mundane have some good chances of surviving one of those many broken as shit Save-or-Dies casters toss out on a round-per-round bases instead of the auto-win defaulting to them.

A few Strikes do care ability your iterative attacks and virtually every single offensive boost does and guess what else makes a difference. Wizard 19 / Fighter 1 vs Fighter 19 / Wizard 1. Of course unlike Spellcasting advancement the Fighter 19 / Warblade 1 has 5th level Strikes...

Offline Garryl

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2014, 12:18:27 PM »
Yes, generally Skills-to-Saves are broken, it let's a Mundane have some good chances of surviving one of those many broken as shit Save-or-Dies casters toss out on a round-per-round bases instead of the auto-win defaulting to them.

It always seemed to me that the Concentration save replacers were intended to essentially be auto-succeeds by mid-high levels. The 6th-level boost that give +IL to a single save is like the same thing, just a little less reliable (you still fail on a nat 1) in exchange for being more versatile (affecting all save types instead of just one). It's sort of like ToB's version to the immunity stacking you can do with spells; instead of being immune to almost everything, you're just immune to the first thing that hits you, and that's rather more fun to work with.

A few Strikes do care ability your iterative attacks and virtually every single offensive boost does and guess what else makes a difference. Wizard 19 / Fighter 1 vs Fighter 19 / Wizard 1. Of course unlike Spellcasting advancement the Fighter 19 / Warblade 1 has 5th level Strikes...

Not if the Fighter 19/Warblade 1 takes that single level of Warblade first instead of last, thus gaining only 1st-level maneuvers, which is what Zugschef was complaining about. The issue is that taking the same number of levels in the same classes but in different orders creates such a wide disparity with ToB classes. For a Wizard 1/Fighter 19, you wind up with 10 bonus feats and 1st-level spells regardless of when you take that single Wizard level, be it your 1st or 20th or anywhere in between.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2014, 12:36:35 PM »
A few Strikes do care ability your iterative attacks and virtually every single offensive boost does and guess what else makes a difference. Wizard 19 / Fighter 1 vs Fighter 19 / Wizard 1. Of course unlike Spellcasting advancement the Fighter 19 / Warblade 1 has 5th level Strikes...

Not if the Fighter 19/Warblade 1 takes that single level of Warblade first instead of last, thus gaining only 1st-level maneuvers, which is what Zugschef was complaining about. The issue is that taking the same number of levels in the same classes but in different orders creates such a wide disparity with ToB classes. For a Wizard 1/Fighter 19, you wind up with 10 bonus feats and 1st-level spells regardless of when you take that single Wizard level, be it your 1st or 20th or anywhere in between.

I consider that a feature, not a bug. Characters in D&D are supposed to grow considerably in power, so taking a level at 20 should give you a lot more stuff than if you had taken it at level 1. Thus a dip of a martial class at any level is always interesting and useful, while taking wizard 1 after 19 fighter/barbarians levels if basically crippling yourself.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2014, 12:47:48 PM »
A few Strikes do care ability your iterative attacks and virtually every single offensive boost does and guess what else makes a difference. Wizard 19 / Fighter 1 vs Fighter 19 / Wizard 1. Of course unlike Spellcasting advancement the Fighter 19 / Warblade 1 has 5th level Strikes...

Not if the Fighter 19/Warblade 1 takes that single level of Warblade first instead of last, thus gaining only 1st-level maneuvers, which is what Zugschef was complaining about. The issue is that taking the same number of levels in the same classes but in different orders creates such a wide disparity with ToB classes. For a Wizard 1/Fighter 19, you wind up with 10 bonus feats and 1st-level spells regardless of when you take that single Wizard level, be it your 1st or 20th or anywhere in between.

I consider that a feature, not a bug. Characters in D&D are supposed to grow considerably in power, so taking a level at 20 should give you a lot more stuff than if you had taken it at level 1. Thus a dip of a martial class at any level is always interesting and useful, while taking wizard 1 after 19 fighter/barbarians levels if basically crippling yourself.


I'd describe it as a bug, because it doesn't play nice with having a class-based system.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2014, 01:03:17 PM »
Lolwhut?:psyduck

It plays extremely nice with having a class system where you have multiclassing, because it makes said multiclassing a viable option at all levels with lots of classes.

Really, for it to be a bug, it would need to be screwing things over, but no, instead it gives us the players and DMs nice things.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2014, 02:02:49 PM »
It does something that essentially no other class does,  at all: makes when you take the level matter. Sure, it's nice that it's multiclass friendly, but it's dumb that the guy who takes Warblade at level 2 or 3 then has a dead level with pathetic maneuvers when they get to level 20, whilst the guy who takes Warblade at level 20 gets better maneuvers from what's still a one level dip.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2014, 02:21:53 PM »
It always seemed to me that the Concentration save replacers were intended to essentially be auto-succeeds by mid-high levels.
For the most part it should be, it's 1d20+32 (23r, 2 tools, +7 for 14b/6en/4inher), but some higher CRed monsters you're supposed to fight without Epics (great wyrm red dragon for example) have Save DCs near 40~45 which gives you around a 60% chance opposed to a Wizard's potential immunity (sic mind blank vs dragon).

Also bugs are errors (programming), a type of insect (real), or something that's annoying. ToB purposely grants +1/2 Advancement so either you have a beef with it because you choose to or it's not a bug. It's a feature. :p

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2014, 02:32:28 PM »
It always seemed to me that the Concentration save replacers were intended to essentially be auto-succeeds by mid-high levels.
For the most part it should be, it's 1d20+32 (23r, 2 tools, +7 for 14b/6en/4inher), but some higher CRed monsters you're supposed to fight without Epics (great wyrm red dragon for example) have Save DCs near 40~45 which gives you around a 60% chance opposed to a Wizard's potential immunity (sic mind blank vs dragon).

Also bugs are errors (programming), a type of insect (real), or something that's annoying. ToB purposely grants +1/2 Advancement so either you have a beef with it because you choose to or it's not a bug. It's a feature. :p

Fine, it's an oversight that there's no mechanism to enable the guy that takes it early to benefit from the scaling. :p

Offline oslecamo

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2014, 02:49:18 PM »
It always seemed to me that the Concentration save replacers were intended to essentially be auto-succeeds by mid-high levels.
For the most part it should be, it's 1d20+32 (23r, 2 tools, +7 for 14b/6en/4inher), but some higher CRed monsters you're supposed to fight without Epics (great wyrm red dragon for example) have Save DCs near 40~45 which gives you around a 60% chance opposed to a Wizard's potential immunity (sic mind blank vs dragon).

Also bugs are errors (programming), a type of insect (real), or something that's annoying. ToB purposely grants +1/2 Advancement so either you have a beef with it because you choose to or it's not a bug. It's a feature. :p

Fine, it's an oversight that there's no mechanism to enable the guy that takes it early to benefit from the scaling. :p
No mechanism? There's multiple! just take your pick:
-Free retraining of lower level maneuvers for higher level ones.
-Taking ToB classes at early levels can unlock fancy prcs at higher levels, whereas taking them at level 20 will not.

Offline YouLostMe

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2014, 04:05:21 PM »
Both of those mechanisms are laughable, I can't see anyone supporting them with a straight face.

Problems:
1. I would like to echo the sentiment of ToB playing badly with multiclassing. "Power now v. Power later" is never a tradeoff that should be made.
2. I'd also like to echo the complaint about crappy maneuver DCs. Just because spell DCs suck doesn't mean maneuvers DCs need to also suck.
3. Another thing that bothers me is that ToB seems designed to reflect martial arts (plus some crazy wuju), but the mechanics don't really reflect that. I'd want to see more parallels to martial arts, though I understand that could be hard.
4. Not enough power went to utility. Warblades are the worst for this, but Crusaders also have a limited skill set out of combat and Swordsage abilities don't scale up that well (yay level 15 limited flight)

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2014, 04:51:06 PM »
The things that annoy me the most are maneuver prereqs and how warblade 1/fighter 19 is very different from fighter 19/warblade 1, but both have already been mentioned. When I DM, I use houserules to fix both (ignore prereqs, retrain maneuvers freely). And of course the actual usefulness/power of maneuvers has almost nothing to do with their level, but the same could be said for all kinds of things in D&D...
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Offline littha

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Re: How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2014, 08:17:13 PM »
People keep going on about how wuxia the flavour of the book is.

I don't find this at all in 2/3rds of it. The Crusader and Warblade maneuvers seem more like things from greek or norse mythology than anything else... to me at least.