How do you feel Tome of Battle has let you down?

[Raineh Daze]

According to a friend of mine, Western swordfighting once included something called the unicorn parry, so...

[bhu]

True.  If it were wuxia you's see things like old men crushing people with oddly gigantic foot, or turning people into little charm baggies, or wielding swords the size of mountains (or rakes that weigh multiple tons), or killing people with their disturbingly large eyebrows or chicken feet.


I watch a lot of weird martial arts movies...

[ketaro]

Pretty much the only people I know who think the Tome of Battle is the Tome of Weaboo Fight Magicks are the ones who don't watch anime or even kung fu movies or who do and love making the joke because it is a really funny joke

I don't think the ToB has any failing points even if I've never actually used any of the Disciplines in the book. Because the ToB brought about an insane amount of homebrewed Disciplines that wouldn't have worked very well using one of the already established systems of magic in the game.

[Raineh Daze]

Pretty much the only people I know who think the Tome of Battle is the Tome of Weaboo Fight Magicks are the ones who don't watch anime or even kung fu movies or who do and love making the joke because it is a really funny joke

I don't think the ToB has any failing points even if I've never actually used any of the Disciplines in the book. Because the ToB brought about an insane amount of homebrewed Disciplines that wouldn't have worked very well using one of the already established systems of magic in the game.

Poor maneuver swapping, annoying prerequisites WITH the maneuver books, and a reliance on taking the stuff at the right time to get the right maneuver (due to the first and second points).

[ketaro]

So?

ToB's mechanics were made to be similar to ones already in place. Maneuver swapping in the same way Sorcerer's can swap spells. DCs scaling with the same rules as Spell DCs. Ect or whatever blah blah blah

This thread is just complaining about D&D's bad mechanics that the ToB probably had to conform to because of worry about alienating people (or laziness oh well).

None of these things are actually a problem with the ToB and none of them are reasons why the ToB would have let down or not people.

These are reasons why D&D has let people down. And yet, it hasn't actually because everybody here loves D&D in all it's flawed glory.

Everybody just hates ToB because it makes them think about weaboos and wuxia kung fu bullshit and that they think they got tricked into hoping it'd not be some asia ninja magick stuff because the title wasn't as blatent as "Oriental Adventures" which actually does have like a dozen kung fu styles in it with mechanics for their playing of.

[Raineh Daze]

No, it lets you down, because a sorc's spell swapping is based on a progression where spells level at a steady pace. If you take one sorcerer level at level 1, and three at 18-20, you'll have the same effective casting: 4th level Sorcerer. A solid 1-4 levels, or one now and three later; it works out the same.

If you take a solid four levels of Warblade, you'll only have 1st and 2nd level maneuvers. If you take one level and three later, you'll have a few first, but the others will be midlevel maneuvers. And if you take three at the beginning but one later, you're still worse than one now three later! It's the only system in the game aside from some PrC oddities where the order in which you take levels is going to affect the total power of the class combinations at level 20; the swapping should not work on the same basis as it does to not violate the whole idea of class strength being independent from total levels.

[ketaro]

You just can't be happy about having an option for a melee to get an awesome power boost at any point in their career without needing to dedicate all there levels to slowly build up to it, huh?
What you're describing isn't a bad thing in the least. It's "yay easy powerbumps for my fighter that don't require me to conform an entire build around it to make a single option really really really useful!"

I mean, that's the obvious way to look at it from the perspective of this being a forum about optimization choices, no?

[SorO_Lost]

None of these things are actually a problem with the ToB and none of them are reasons why the ToB would have let down or not people.

Exactly.

Whining about needing more ToB Splat? Guess what, it's so goddamn awesome you wish you had more of it which is the exact opposite of letting you down. It built your expectations to freaking high nothing else can compare to it. It's awesome.

*just realized his comp sat for a half hour on post reply with the prior message*

[SorO_Lost]

I mean, that's the obvious way to look at it from the perspective of this being a forum about optimization choices, no?

You also need to remember all the flame wars and trolling surrounding Psionics & Magic.

ToB is a reverse psionics, not high enough DCs & no scaling was designed to prevent you from releasing a half dozen 9th level equivalent effects every Encounter and as soon as they have that blammo psionics Maneuvers is teh brokenz and baned form mah gamez
Of course someone will never let up about scaling or using that as a reason to ignore it.

[ketaro]

None of these things are actually a problem with the ToB and none of them are reasons why the ToB would have let down or not people.

Exactly.

Whining about needing more ToB Splat? Guess what, it's so goddamn awesome you wish you had more of it which is the exact opposite of letting you down. It built your expectations to freaking high nothing else can compare to it. It's awesome. *drops mic*

 
+1

I mean, that's the obvious way to look at it from the perspective of this being a forum about optimization choices, no?

You also need to remember all the flame wars and trolling surrounding Psionics & Magic.

ToB is a reverse psionics, not high enough DCs & no scaling was designed to prevent you from releasing a half dozen 9th level equivalent effects every Encounter and as soon as they have that blammo psionics Maneuvers is teh brokenz and baned form mah gamez
Of course someone will never let up about scaling or using that as a reason to ignore it.

I've never used Psionics myself, and I'll actually say that I don't like Psionics, but then I've never used Psionics myself much less learned how to use the system. Regardless, while I say I don't like it, I have no problem with it being used in any context, heheh.

[SorO_Lost]

I've never used Psionics myself, and I'll actually say that I don't like Psionics, but then I've never used Psionics myself much less learned how to use the system. Regardless, while I say I don't like it, I have no problem with it being used in any context, heheh.

Well it's not about knowing Psionics, it's understanding a power vs usage trade-off. For example.
1: Psionics: nuke every single round, very limited usage per day.
2: Magic: Most uses per day but diminishes with constant use.
3: Maneuvers: Very quickly depletes it's best but can be regenerated and reused.
4: Invocations: Never runs out but can be countered or utterly nullified.
5: I hit things: Also never runs out but also often cannot be countered and "immune" just means really high numbers.
Psionics was complained about for being too powerful because it can nuke, Warlocks were originally complained about because they can keep casting their SLAs which is also broken, the ToB sits in the middle being called too weak (scaling/DCs) and too strong (vs mundanes) simultaneously and Mundanes are just called worthless and need 1,001 class "fixes" posted hourly on various forums and D&D crapiki. And Magic, well that's perfectly balanced right? Only a few Spells are a problem but that's a serious topic for the rational minded people to do else where.

Pretty much just comes out to doomsayers hating anything different. It's like Racism for splat systems, and you just know the Wizard is Dominating them all.

[YouLostMe]

ToB's mechanics were made to be similar to ones already in place. Maneuver swapping in the same way Sorcerer's can swap spells. DCs scaling with the same rules as Spell DCs. Ect or whatever blah blah blah

This thread is just complaining about D&D's bad mechanics that the ToB probably had to conform to because of worry about alienating people (or laziness oh well).

Here you go. Pointing and saying "They did it first!" is not an excuse for bad design. For example, the designers in ToM figured out good DCs (10 + 1/2 EBL + StatMod), and it lets me down that they didn't do it 5 months later with ToB (it's also a let down that they didn't do it with shadowcasting).

[SorO_Lost]

For example, the designers in ToM figured out good DCs (10 + 1/2 EBL + StatMod), and it lets me down that they didn't do it 5 months later with ToB (it's also a let down that they didn't do it with shadowcasting).

Hi Welcome.

They did, DCs are 10 + Maneuver Level + Relevant Ability Score. Same DC formula used in Spellcasting, Powers, Infusions, Spell/Power-Like Abilities, Invocations & Miseries which means as long as you use your best you are. Certain other Abilities use 1/2 your level in the dedicated Class instead of the effective "Spell Level" (such as Binders) and even rarer they just use 1/2 your HD for their effective level, that's mostly limited to Supernatural Abilities and Feats but it's kind of obvious why they use that formula.

Of course, not a lot of Maneuvers have Saving Throws. Really it's just Desert Wind for the most part and it's not exactly the School you'd optimize in for much of the same reasons why you'd never specialize in Evocation. But anyway, if you go back and read the thread before commenting you'd learn why it stuck to the real tried and true formula.

[ketaro]

Here you go. Pointing and saying "They did it first!" is not an excuse for bad design. For example, the designers in ToM figured out good DCs (10 + 1/2 EBL + StatMod), and it lets me down that they didn't do it 5 months later with ToB (it's also a let down that they didn't do it with shadowcasting).

You probably think you're being clever with that link but I clearly stated what I said as conjecture. Because >I don't know the truth nor will I assume to<. 

[YouLostMe]

Hi Welcome.

Hi, glad to be here. I can see you need the help.

They did, DCs are 10 + Maneuver Level + Relevant Ability Score. Same DC formula used in Spellcasting, Powers, Infusions, Spell/Power-Like Abilities, Invocations & Miseries which means as long as you use your best you are. Certain other Abilities use 1/2 your level in the dedicated Class instead of the effective "Spell Level" (such as Binders) and even rarer they just use 1/2 your HD for their effective level, that's mostly limited to Supernatural Abilities and Feats but it's kind of obvious why they use that formula.

Of course, not a lot of Maneuvers have Saving Throws. Really it's just Desert Wind for the most part and it's not exactly the School you'd optimize in for much of the same reasons why you'd never specialize in Evocation. But anyway, if you go back and read the thread before commenting you'd learn why it stuck to the real tried and true formula.

The DC of 10 + Ability Level + StatMod falls off because saving throw bonuses scale better to your level than the saves do, LA aside. That is the (obvious) reason that saving throws are bad, though the reason it seems WotC employees did it was because spells did it... and that's a serious let down.

Lots of maneuvers force saves, because there are lots of homebrew disciplines and saves are in there. But anyway, go back to the homebrew boards and read a few homebrew disciplines and you'll learn why the "tried and true" formula is actually terrible.

You probably think you're being clever with that link but I clearly stated what I said as conjecture. Because >I don't know the truth nor will I assume to<. 

Hey, same here!

[ketaro]

It doesn't matter what the DCs scale by, whether it's the normal scaling spells also go by, or the 10+1/2Lvl+Relevant Stat. Your DCs will be shit and everybody's gonna have Cloaks of Resistance.

The DC of 10 + Ability Level + StatMod falls off because saving throw bonuses scale better to your level than the saves do, LA aside. That is the (obvious) reason that saving throws are bad, though the reason it seems WotC employees did it was because spells did it... and that's a serious let down.

Lots of maneuvers force saves, because there are lots of homebrew disciplines and saves are in there. But anyway, go back to the homebrew boards and read a few homebrew disciplines and you'll learn why the "tried and true" formula is actually terrible.

A lot of maneuvers force saves. But a lot of those same maneuvers also need to hit the target's AC before we even get to saves. But Just like DCs, AC scales like garbage; and just like Save bonuses, To Hit bonuses scale stupidly effin fast.
Oh hey! Let's complain about another thing that isn't actually a fault of ToB but D&D in general but lets make it look like it's ToB's fault! That needing to hit an AC is just as moot as having worrying about your shit DCs because you're always going to hit but they're never going to fail the save but at least you did some damage when you HIT even if they saved vs w/e effect, unlike if we were talking about spells where if they make the Save you're wasted your whole turn.

Ah, sorry, I forgot we were talking about the problems martial adepts have, but it was sounding so much like the very same problem casters face that I lost track of that rant 

[YouLostMe]

It doesn't matter what the DCs scale by, whether it's the normal scaling spells also go by, or the 10+1/2Lvl+Relevant Stat. Your DCs will be shit and everybody's gonna have Cloaks of Resistance.

I'm not really sure how to respond without coming of as insulting you. Do you honestly believe this or is it intentionally a strawman?

A lot of maneuvers force saves. But a lot of those same maneuvers also need to hit the target's AC before we even get to saves. But Just like DCs, AC scales like garbage; and just like Save bonuses, To Hit bonuses scale stupidly effin fast.
Oh hey! Let's complain about another thing that isn't actually a fault of ToB but D&D in general but lets make it look like it's ToB's fault! That needing to hit an AC is just as moot as having worrying about your shit DCs because you're always going to hit but they're never going to fail the save but at least you did some damage when you HIT even if they saved vs w/e effect, unlike if we were talking about spells where if they make the Save you're wasted your whole turn.

Wut. The fact that one thing is good and another thing is bad, doesn't magically make the bad thing less bad. It's good that attacks can deal damage even if they fail to inflict a rider (and guess what, no one thinks that's a let down!), but that certainly doesn't excuse the abysmally weak scaling on the rider save DC.

Ah, sorry, I forgot we were talking about the problems martial adepts have, but it was sounding so much like the very same problem casters face that I lost track of that rant 

Ah, I think you missed my original link. Do you need me to explain how tu quoque works?

[ketaro]

And now you understand what it feels like to me when I read this thread. It's all very silly, this, to put it politely.

Edit: I should explain that maybe. This is a fairly pointlessly circular discussion. At the end of it, you're still entirely happy with what ToB has brought to the table if you were before OR you're still looking at ToB as if it's the worst thing to ever happen ever because of a menagerie of things from "bad mechanics" (but are actually just the same mechanics everybody playing the game was already use to) to an imaginary perspective of weaboo kungfu bullshit and it's impossibly huge flavor clash with the kind of worlds every DM thinks they're running.

At the end of it, everybody is back where they started. People want a ToB with not good, but simply different mechanics, there's a whole bunch of homebrew to cherrypick for that. Don't wanna but still want it to be better? Well you're gonna adhoc rules to change it yourself to make it better and we're right back at "homebrew the fix". You satisfied with what ToB already has? You're gonna just stick with what it already has then cause that's what works and homebrew stuff is clearly silly OP.

The entire fact that one person opened this thread to gather suggestions to revamp an entire supplement system clearly shows that that person and everybody in here is pretty dam happy with all the stuff ToB delivered overall. This is really just a culmination of nitpicks and screw tightenings.

Ah, I think you missed my original link. Do you need me to explain how tu quoque works?

Well, you're certainly riding high on the coat tails of that fad that popped up this season. Go on, lord it over a bit more

[bhu]

Okay this turned out differently than expected 

Let us try a different route:  What would you like to see added?  Submission Holds?  Expelling chickens from orifices?  Fist of the North Star?

[ketaro]

Okay this turned out differently than expected 

Let us try a different route:  What would you like to see added?  Submission Holds?  Expelling chickens from orifices?  Fist of the North Star?

That's more like it!

FIST OF THE NORTH STAR PLEASE AND THANK YOU! 

And if you can actually find a way to have a discipline around Grappling that is perhaps a bit quicker to get thru than those things called Grapple rules, that would honestly be quite beautiful.

Edit: Basically, bhu, this was a poor choice of thread title that invoked rather more discussion than suggestions for a revamp.