Base Class++?

[SorO_Lost]

Sometimes you find another Class that just seems to be everything your Base Class does or wants to be. And more often than not they are intended to stack to new heights of power rather than serve as a replacement but not always. You may often see them complimenting any suggestion about such class but has anyone really sat down to list them?

Aristocrat -> OA Samurai
Artificer -> Alchemist Savant or Wizard
Barbarian -> Frenzy Berzerker
Bard -> Sublime Chord
Beguiler -> Mindbender (well, 1 level anyway)
Binder -> ?
Cleric -> Radiant Servant of Pelor
Commoner -> 9 int Wizard, at least he has a book to sell. Also chicken infested commoner.
Dragonfire Adapt -> Heir of Siberies
Dread Necromancer -> Tainted Sorcerer
Druid -> Planar Shephard
Duskblade -> Abjuration Champion
Factotum -> Chameleon
Fighter -> Warblade
Monk -> Unarmed Swordsage
Paladin -> Mystic Fire Paladin with Sword of the Arcane Order & Initiate of Milil
Psion -> Anarchic Initiate
Psychic Warrior -> Ardent
Ranger -> Stalker of Kharash or Mystic Ranger from Dragon Magazine
Rogue -> Factotum?
Scout -> ?
Sorcerer -> Steel Dragon?
Soulknife -> Soulbow
Spellthief  -> Hellbreaker
Swordsage -> Telflammar Shadowlord
Warlock -> Hellfire Warlock
Warmage -> Rainbow Savant
Witch -> Beguiler
Wizard -> Shadowcraft Mage or Incantatrix

What do you think and what all did I miss?

[phaedrusxy]

Cleric -> RSoP (for good clerics)

Summarized here:
What a cleric loses transitioning to this class
D8 hit die. It becomes a d6.

What a cleric gains transitioning to this class
Martial weapon proficiency.
Greater Turning 3 + Cha modifier per day.
Radiance - light spells double in illumination radius.
Turn undead continues to progress.
He becomes immune to all diseases.
He can first empower, then later maximize, then later do both at once for no extra cost with Healing domain spells.
The Radiant Servant and all allies within 10 feet gain +2 morale bonus on all Will saves.
He gets a third domain.
For the cost of 2 turn attempts, he can deal up to 10d6 positive energy damage to all undead within 100 feet.
He gains full cleric spellcasting progression on top of everything else.

[SorO_Lost]

That's really fitting and pretty positive. 

I got it added.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

So +2 Tier PrCs?

Planar Shephard
Soulbow
Anarchic Initiate

Rogue does NOT go with scout, no matter how you try. You'd be better off doing other rogue things. Scout can go with rogue, in moderation though.

[linklord231]

I think Wizard is a straight upgrade from Artificer.  If you ignore the free item creation feats (because you can't use them to break WBL), then there's not much that an Arty can do that a Wizard can't to natively and without spending time and gp.  They get some neat tricks that only they can do, like Item Alteration and early access to spells via creating scrolls, but Wizards get some of their own exclusive tricks too. 

Unarmed variant Swordsage (or just SS with Superior Unarmed Strike) is the default "upgrade" to Monk, but I'm also a fan of Ninja of the Crescent Moon - especially on a monk with the Invisible Fist and Dark Moon Disciple ACFs.  Actually, NotCM is pretty much a straight upgrade to Rogue too.  Not many things give full BAB and full Sneak Attack. 

Planar Shepard has been mentioned, but it really is Druid++.  It's the only PrC I can think of that fully progresses the Big 3 - Wildshape, Animal Companion, and Spells (Lion of Talisid comes close, but drops a few levels of Wildshape and locks you in to a certain type of animal companion) - as well as gives some straight upgrades, notably the Wildshape enhancement and Planar Bubble.  Even if used non-cheesily, it's quite powerful. 

It's not on your list, but Ironsoul Forgemaster is an upgrade to Incarnate in most ways.  You lose a meldshaper level and delay some of your binds, but the BAB upgrade and neat extra abilities are worth it.  If only it weren't only for Lawful dwarves 

[sambojin]

In many ways, Sorcerer-> Psion. They might not have as many game-warping big spells (although there's some doozies), but they have potentially hundreds of uses of smaller broken spells that can break campaigns just as well. And heaps of good/OP feats. And races that are made just for that class. And lots of and lots of busted items for them, things that make sorcerers cry (cognizance crystals, psicrowns, even shards). They also get a pretty open skill selection depending on discipline chosen. They even have some silly-good prestige classes.

I'd call that essentially an upgrade.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Dual Casters --> Erudite Spell To Power
... especially if early entry is tightly drawn.

Soulknife --> Psychic Warrior with Soulbound Weapon acf
... actually Soulknife might = for the first 3 or 4 levels, if you know what you're doing.
If the PsyWar can PHB2 Retrain (it should), it will always be >>.

Any psi class --> Same any psi class with recharge (!)
... generally from level 6 on up.

Monk --> Tashalatora feat Monk 2 / PsyWar or Ardent X ; or Carmindine feat Monk 2 / Psion or Erudite X
... so technically this is a build, however that's how these single feats get used.
Also only refers to general Monk builds from before 2012.
2013 was a very good year for Monks.  (still needs help though)

Any 6/10 or worse caster PrC --> r.a.w. Ardent entry with Magic Mantle and 1 feat
... this might be considered to be High C.O. at some tables. (even though it shouldn't)

Psi Artificer --> play 4e or 5e  instead of such obvious psi-X syndrome, also how does this class really work?!

[sambojin]

It does a weird stuff with dorjes.

I know that sounds dirty. It is.

There's strange powerlinking going on that lets you fire off higher level stuff as a low level meta'd power, using the dorje charges as a cheap battery. Sort of a one dimensional resource and/or action system breakage, that lets you do multi-dimensional things, potentially quite quickly.

It's just the whole "I buy my extra levels of awesome with gold, don't you?" thing that any psi based class has, just taken to strange linked, twinned, pseudo-arcane class item usage levels. It probably wouldn't really fly with any DM, it is hard to explain how the feats and powers all line up, but apparently people think it's legit. Your character sucks until about lvl 6, then everything starts having to suck your dorje, on command.

Yes. That is the most accurate description I can give on how that class works.

[SorO_Lost]

Psi Artificer <snip> also how does this class really work?!

Like an Artificer.

[Soft Insanity]

Like an Artificer.

In a perfect world maybe.  However, taken at face value, it's so much stronger than a normal artificer.  Psionic items don't have the versatility of magic ones unless you allow for complete transparency.  I'd much rather have a dorje than a wand if they contain the same spell/power, unless that spell/power is a swift or immediate action spell.  The reason for that is: they can go above level 4 spells/powers and are harder to break.

The only item that comes close is the minor schema.  Staffs and Psicrowns are nice, but not had until later levels.  That's 5 levels where the psionic artificer is better than the normal one (assuming you can make 5th level spell/power dorjes at level 7).  As nice as minor schemas are, they don't come into play until level 12 on your average artificer.

Of course, this alone isn't the real reason the 2 classes have such a huge power gap.  That would simply be that the psi artificer can use both the psionic and magic tricks if you allow transparency.

Now, if you take away transparency, the psionic artificer is nowhere near as good imho.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Psi Artificer <snip> also how does this class really work?!

Like an Artificer.

   ... SorO, has anyone ever called you a "Romantic Optimist" before?



Aristocrat --> OA Samurai (no idea if the CW version feels right)
Sam's weapon = value of Aristo's early gp bonus, but scales iffy to average.
Rest of the class is mostly flavor, and inferior to Fighter.

[SorO_Lost]

  ... SorO, has anyone ever called you a "Romantic Optimist" before?

Not on here for fairly obvious reasons

Allow me to spoil that with my normally cold calculating view.

(click to show/hide)

Now, if you take away transparency, the psionic artificer is nowhere near as good imho.

Actually transparency goes both ways to a point that "psionic" items don't even exist. The text doesn't outside say Wizards can make pisonic-equivlant items but it's suggested and never contradicted.

No matter if you are using Transparency or Psionics-is-different you must still meet identical requirements if the Item in question produces a Spell or effect identical to one of it's Required Spells. Like matches only apply on other typed items and as soon as someone points that out you can bet someone jumps in thinking StP Erudite ftw. But really, how many times have you tried claiming that a Spell or Power created by a Class Feature can be freely learned by someone else? Like a Favored Soul learning Body Outside A Body because Hexer or Sorcerer learning Divine Power because Rainbow Servant? I'm sorry, you must complete your TO with Psychic Chirurgery to force the Erudite known Power into the Psionic Artifice's head. And on that point Mental Pinnacle is SRD and Psychic Chirurgery by anyone skips the whole StP Erudite part anyway. So really, there is nothing special about the Psionic Artificer and it behaves exactly as you'd expect; An Artificer that uses Powers and a bunch of people are convinced it's more broken than Magic.

Oh, and while I'm at it. Dorjes suck. They are not Wands, but Staff/Wand hybrids with unique disadvantages drawn from each. For example, if you wanted a Dorjes of Greater Metamorphosis, Psionic Mind Blank, and Psionic Disintegrate it'll cost you 254,250gp. A Staff of Shapechange, Mind Blank, Disintegrate only costs 207,000 thanks to the -25%/-50% discounts. And if Shapechange uses 2 Charges then it's 149,625. Then in the hands of their respected 20th level owners Disintegrate does 40d6 damage but Psionic Disintegrate deals 22d6. Unless the Psion punched him self in the crotch to also pay the Feat tax of Dorje Master, in which case it's still a less effective number but cost the Psion even more.

And did you know, a Dorje's ML is hard capped at +5 of the minimum ML to Manifest the Power?

You know what I just realized? You can't see the posts in the thread when editing the 1st post.

[Soft Insanity]

Aristocrat --> OA Samurai (no idea if the CW version feels right)
Sam's weapon = value of Aristo's early gp bonus, but scales iffy to average.
Rest of the class is mostly flavor, and inferior to Fighter.

Iaijutsu Focus and a good will save put it right about equal to fighter in my book.  The clan feat restrictions are its main weakness, but also its main strength as your clan will come to your aid.  It's a good alternative to fighter in that setting.  Outside that setting it's just meh.  In a low magic setting, the daisho is that much stronger.

I have one:
Commoner --> 10 or under intelligence Wizard
The wizard starts with a spellbook they can sell.

[SorO_Lost]

Commoner --> 10 or under intelligence Wizard
The wizard starts with a spellbook they can sell.

Am I terrible for adding that? lol

[FireInTheSky]

You know what I just realized? You can't see the posts in the thread when editing the 1st post.

You can if you do the edit from the button in the lower right of the post, since that has you do it on the same page. You just don't get all the formatting and emoji buttons.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

DMG Witch --> Beguiler

For wtf reasons they never finished an official Witch despite having it right there.  Paizo had it's spider sense go off about that and did the job for them.

[littha]

Psychic Warrior > Ardent.

You lose Martial weapon proficiency and a couple of specific powers to get access to 9th level powers and a butload more PP. Also Dominant Ideal abuse.

[sambojin]

(never mind. Can't read. Wrong class)

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Aristocrat --> OA Samurai (no idea if the CW version feels right)
Sam's weapon = value of Aristo's early gp bonus, but scales iffy to average.
Rest of the class is mostly flavor, and inferior to Fighter.

Iaijutsu Focus and a good will save put it right about equal to fighter in my book.  The clan feat restrictions are its main weakness, but also its main strength as your clan will come to your aid.  It's a good alternative to fighter in that setting.  Outside that setting it's just meh.  In a low magic setting, the daisho is that much stronger ...

As far as flavor goes, yes absolutely OA Sam >>>>> Artistocrat , and maybe even Fighter.  There's a whole bunch of NPC class variant possibilities, listed/buried within OA.  Example:  I figure that the OA "Noble" is an Aristocrat with Commoner HPs and weapon(s).  Something like a Geisha Calligrapher that entertains Diplomats at the Court, bashes a frisky one with an ornamental candlestick.

OA Sam skills get squeezed through the Honor and High, Mid, and Low class skills definition. No Lows for a proper middle of the road Sam.  It's also not an Int class and has little incentive to bump those.  OA Sam skills are just barely > Fighter.  Feats?  The Human bonus feat is spoken for by the Clan, as are the Sam feats.  This is not really optimize-able, except for when you pick them.  OA Sam feats are <<< Fighter.  Fighter can always take 1 feat to get Iajitsu and still be ahead on feats.  OA Sam gets the Isolated Craft Arm (and ~Armor), which luckily doesn't absolutely have to be what's listed.  Do it yourself >> go beg your Clan for help ; however the Fighter is in pretty much the same boat, go beg a Magic Mart.


Has the OA Sohei ever been given a solid C.O. workover?  I'm suspicious that Sohei is =< Warrior.

[Shadowhunter]

Binders upgrade is simply being granted access to Zceryll. It's the Vestige that takes it from Tier 3 to Tier 2.