A simple fix to the samurai

[Nick]

Okay. The samurai class from complete warrior isn't exactly very good. I've wanted a fix to this class, but I don't want to make anyone read a bunch of new class abilities that have very long descriptions to keep the RAW as close to RAI as possible. No offense to those creative minds, but sometimes a simpler idea is more likely to be okayed by the DM, especially if he or she is busy with figuring out half a million other things that the DM needs to do when starting a campaign.

So here's my quick fix. This stuff is what I had before this thread started. After this spoiler, I have a more finalized version, with incorporated help and suggestions from Amechra and Raineh Daze.

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There are two options:

1.) Treat the samurai as gestalt with the Aristocrat NPC class.

2.) Treat the samurai as gestalt with the Expert NPC class.


Obviously, if a samurai PC gains levels in another class, those levels in other classes aren't treated as gestalt.

I'm not really into actual gestalt campaigns, so I can't say how this would work as one side of a gestalt build in a gestalt campaign.

Essentially, this fix attempt would give the samurai good will saves, along with a better skill list and skill points. Aristocrat adds 11 skills (not including knowledges or performances), and increase skill point to 4+Int. Also, aristocrat kind of fits the nobility/privileged background of the samurai. Expert would add any ten skills to the samurai's skill list, and increase the skill points at each level to 6+Int modifier.

I'd say that would be enough of a fix, but there's a possibility this samurai may feel like an in-optimized or melee focused bard. If the players and DM agree this still needs a bit more oomph, then consider the following:

1.) Bonus fighter feats at every fifth level. If this does not satisfy, then take out Two Swords as One, Improved Two Swords as One, Iajutsu Proficiency, and Improved Initiative, and replace them with more bonus feats at those levels (total of four more bonus feats , with a grand total of seven bonus feats to rival the fighter's eleven). He can take any feat that "Weapon Focus (bastard sword or katana) is for, as long as the samurai meets all prerequisites. The samurai's samurai level is two less than his effective fighter level for choosing feats (minimum effective fighter level of 1).

2.) Allow the samurai to feint with the Intimidate skill as a standard action if he has Staredown and Improved Feint. He then may feint with intimidate as a move action once he can use the Staredown class feature as a move action.

3.) Allow the ronin prestige class to let the samurai keep all class features even though he broke the code of Bushido, but still lose them if he chooses to trade in levels of samurai for levels of ronin.

Again, I think the pseudo gestalt of aristocrat or expert (aristocrat would be preferred) is the better option.

Here's what has been agreed on so far:

1.) Give the samurai good will saves, combine skill list with Aristocrat skill list, and increase skill points to 4+int modifier. This is effectively a gestalt samurai/aristocrat that doesn't treat other classes as being able to "only take one side" of the gestalt build.

2.) The samurai gains the following class features:

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Breaking Stare (Ex): At 4th level, the samurai can internalize their mastery of kiai into making a subject fear for their life. When attempting to change behavior, a samurai can spend 1 use of their kiai smite ability to negate a target's Wisdom modifier for a single Intimidate check. At 9th level, a samurai negates a target's modifiers on saves against fear. Breaking Stare may also be used to apply Intimidate checks to Demoralize as well as checks made to change behavior.

At 13th level, a samurai negates a target's immunity from being intimidated from any source, as long as it is not of a specific type or a racial immunity. At 15th level, a samurai treats himself as being one size category larger for the purpose of intimidation bonuses and penalties based on relative sizes. At 18th level, a samurai increase his size modifier by two categories.

Interrogator (Ex): At 19th level, the samurai becomes so certain in the use of Intimidate to change behavior that the character can use it reliably even under adverse conditions. When making an Intimidate check to change behavior, the samurai may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent the character from doing so.

A samurai also gains an extra use of Kiai Smite at third level.

3.) Instead of Iajutsu Master, the samurai gains Extended Intimidation.

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Extended Intimidation (Ex): Whenever a Samurai of at least 5th level makes a successful Intimidate check to change another creature's behaviour, the effects last 24 hours after you leave their presence instead of fading 1d6 x 10 minutes later. In addition, the Samurai may henceforth apply the bonus from Staredown to any Intimidation rolls made against that creature, instead of just Demoralization attempts.

4.) replace the Two Swords as One class features with the Combat Style ranger class feature. Unlike the ranger, a samurai can wear heavier armor and carry a heavier load.

5.) A samurai does not gain Improved Initiative, but he does gain bonus feats at every fourth level. He may choose a general or fighter bonus feat he meets the prerequisites for, and has an effective fighter level equal to his base attack bonus, for the purpose of determining prerequisites for feats only. If he chooses Weapon Focus, or any feat which has Weapon focus as a prerequisite, he must choose the katana or the wakazashi. If he already has the feat in question for both weapons, he may choose another weapon. Melee Weapon Mastery is the exception to this, and it must be mastery with slashing weapons. The bonuses from melee weapon mastery still apply to all slashing weapons as normal. It is highly recommended the samurai consider the following feats:

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Improved Demoralize [Fighter]:
You are good at frightening people in a fight.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Intimidate 4 ranks
Benefits: You may make an Intimidate check to Demoralize a creature as a move action.
Special: If you gain the ability to make Intimidate checks to Demoralize creatures as a move action from another source, you may instead make those checks as a Swift action.

Quick Strikes [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting*, BAB +6
Benefits: Whenever you make at least one melee attack with a weapon and are wielding a weapon in your off-hand, you may make an off-hand attack at your full BAB; this does not stack with any other off-hand attacks you might have, such as the one you get by full-attacking while two-weapon fighting. In any round that you use the off-hand attack granted by this feat, take a -2 penalty to all attack rolls.

Terrifying Gaze [General]:
Prerequisites: Breaking Stare, Staredown, Intimidate 8 ranks
Benefits: Whenever you successfully Demoralize a creature, they are also rendered Flat-footed for one round.

*Two Swords as One allows a samurai to bypass this prerequisite. However, this feat only applies to his Daisho weapons. If the samurai has Melee Weapon Mastery, he may apply it to any slashing weapon he is proficient with, as long as he is wielding one Daisho weapon in one of his hands.

[Amechra]

It would still be more of an NPC class; for reference, a Fighter/Expert gestalt is still pretty weaksauce.

I'd suggest going with the following:

- Samurai/Aristocrat gestalt; it's a nice little boost, and has some nice flavor.
- Give them Breaking Stare and Interrogator, allow Breaking Stare to apply to Intimidate checks to Demoralize as well as checks made to change behaviour, and allow the 13th level upgrade for Breaking Stare to suppress immunity to fear from any source except type. They are pretty much official anyway; those modifications take it from "oh" to "OH".
- Give them a +1 bonus to all attack rolls made while dual-wielding their katana and wakizashi at 5th level, 9th level, 13th level, and 17th level. Call it "Daisho Mastery" or whatever.
- Give them an extra daily use of Kiai Smite at 3rd level.

And a pair of optional tweaks:
- If you have Oriental Adventures, add Iaijutsu Focus to their class skill list. They have a class feature called Iaijutsu Master, for crying out loud!
- Replace Improved Initiative at 8th level with Quick Strikes.

And one that might be harder to swing, but which would make the Samurai awesome:
- Replace Iaijutsu Master with Extended Intimidation.

Extended Intimidation (Ex): Whenever a Samurai of at least 5th level makes a successful Intimidate check to change another creature's behaviour, the effects last 24 hours after you leave their presence instead of fading 1d6 x 10 minutes later. In addition, the Samurai may henceforth apply the bonus from Staredown to any Intimidation rolls made against that creature, instead of just Demoralization attempts.

That would move them from "bad" to "I'd consider playing that". They'd have an Intimidate-based social toolkit and a bit more combat power. I'd say they'd then be a pretty decent BSF/Face (hey, that's normally the Paladin's job!).

I'd add the following feats to round it all out:

Improved Demoralize [Fighter]:
You are good at frightening people in a fight.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Intimidate 4 ranks
Benefits: You may make an Intimidate check to Demoralize a creature as a move action.
Special: If you gain the ability to make Intimidate checks to Demoralize creatures as a move action from another source, you may instead make those checks as a Swift action.

Quick Strikes [Fighter]
You can lash out quickly with your off-handed weapon, helping you work it into your combat routine.
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB +6
Benefits: Whenever you make at least one melee attack with a weapon and are wielding a weapon in your off-hand, you may make an off-hand attack at your full BAB; this does not stack with any other off-hand attacks you might have, such as the one you get by full-attacking while two-weapon fighting. In any round that you use the off-hand attack granted by this feat, take a -2 penalty to all attack rolls.

Terrifying Gaze [General]:
Your stare makes people's hearts skip a bit.
Prerequisites: Breaking Stare, Staredown, Intimidate 8 ranks
Benefits: Whenever you successfully Demoralize a creature, they are also rendered Flat-footed for one round.

[Raineh Daze]

Musashi's dual-wielding interest is strong. Ni-ten ichi ryu should be THE main samurai school?

[Nick]

Those are all pretty solid ideas! I especially like the intimidation duration. It gives this whole feel of potential to make an awesome aggressive scoundrel. I don't understand your second comment however. Are you talking about the fighting school feats?


And yeah, the only things missing in my opinion would be an ability to demoralize outside his threat range, and basically have a 5ft "range increment" on his intimidate checks, but with a -2 penalty per increment.

[Amechra]

Staredown gives you 30' range on your Demoralize checks. It's one of the few good things that the Samurai class has.

[Nick]

I must admit I did not remember that. XD thanks for correcting me.

I actually am quite tempted to play as this now. Considering that everybody commenting so far hasn't said anything along the lines of negativity, I'd think most DMs would allow this, right?

I'll go and edit the initial post with the changes made.

[Amechra]

If I had to add one more small change...

I'd probably change Two Swords as One to a Combat Style kinda thing, a la the Ranger. After all, historic Samurai used bows. A lot.

[Nick]

That's a great idea.

Literally change the two swords as one to the rangers combat style, but instead of armor inhibition, it's a weapon one. (Of course, archery style would use a bow and not a blade)

[YouLostMe]

This feels a whole lot like a zhentarim fighter with stricter bonus feats, slightly better skills, and some interesting fear-related bonuses. If that's what you're going for then I suppose it's fine, but I don't think there's anything here that can't be replicated with some feats and a fighter/ranger ACF instead. This seems to clash with the first commandment of brew.

This also doesn't give me the "samurai" vibe. Instead of having epic sword attacks and crazy speed, this guy just feels like a capable warrior that scares people. Even a quick fix could do stuff with crits, 5' steps, or mind games.

That said, I don't want to tell you that your ideas are bad. It just seems like your samurai fix would be better serviced by handing the player a copy of the Zhentarim fighter and telling them to talk about honor.

[Amechra]

Well, Nick did ask for a "quick" class that didn't change much.

I also have to share that I hate when people immediately go to mind games, super speed, or the like when they fix the Samurai. Samurais were not skirmish fighters (if you really want the "itinerant swordsman that chops you in half" thing, Iaijutsu Focus is your skill.)

[littha]

I also have to share that I hate when people immediately go to mind games, super speed, or the like when they fix the Samurai. Samurais were not skirmish fighters (if you really want the "itinerant swordsman that chops you in half" thing, Iaijutsu Focus is your skill.)

The problem being that real Samurai occupy the same design space as Fighters. Much like ninja occupy the rogue position.

If you go for the full on fantasy style samurai you have a much greater range of options for making it something other than a fighter with preselected feats.

[YouLostMe]

Well, Nick did ask for a "quick" class that didn't change much.

I'll wager you can write a quick class fix that still gives the samurai a niche not easily replicated by 9 levels in Zhentarim fighter. I'll even wager you could do it with half the word count if you had to.

I also have to share that I hate when people immediately go to mind games, super speed, or the like when they fix the Samurai. Samurais were not skirmish fighters (if you really want the "itinerant swordsman that chops you in half" thing, Iaijutsu Focus is your skill.)

Littha hit what I wanted to say right on the head. If you want a "realistic" samurai in a world where horses can fly, ninjas can turn invisible, and people can undo gravity, you are entirely justified in that desire. Again, I don't want to tell you your ideas are bad, and there's even a precedent set for that by one of the poster-boy classes for D&D. But I think that denies the tons of awesome samurai concept material we've been given as brewers and it wastes a perfectly good opportunity to introduce a tactically distinct and interesting concept. Even a quick fix can do a service to those ideas.

[Amechra]

Allow me to clarify:

I have no problem with Samurai with super powers. But they should be tanks, not skirmishers.

[Nick]

When I said "quick fix to the samurai," I meant that if someone looked at this option and presented it to a anti-Homebrew biased DM, the Player would be able to tell him what the fix is under five minutes, and the DM would be okay with it. I don't even consider this a Homebrew class, but a variant rule. My goal with this is not to create a new class or to fix fluff. Just a fix to a class that you don't really have to think about or study to think it's playable and balanced. Think of it like fast food vs Olive Garden. Fast food gets the job done, and quickly, but it's not as good of a quality as the expensive Italian restaurant.

I have to admit that it's gotten a little out of hand already.


And to YouLostMe's point on the rule of brew, I did do a search on the site for samurai fixes to make sure this hasn't already been done. Speaking of which, this is the first I've ever heard of the Zhentarim fighter.

[YouLostMe]

Zhentarim fighter is a fighter substitution level set that famously substitutes for levels 3,5, and 9, which are normally dead levels. It's where the 24hr intimidation effect that amechra suggested comes from.

My problem is less that the samurai has been "fixed", but more that said fix could be accomplished by handing the DM a fighter class and using a 1st-party substitution level instead of homebrew. That's why I brought up the 1st commandment thing. Quick or slow, clean or dirty, if a class is basically replaceable then it probably doesn't need to exist.

[Amechra]

Ah, I forgot that was online and not in a book.