One question: Dick Move yes or no?

[Baad Speeler]

Is using the evolved undead template (+1 LA +1 CR) to get a Sor/Wiz 6 save or die spell and subjecting the party to it in a CR 5 encounter a dick move? Just for the sake of argument, let's assume it's Circle of Death

[DancingFish]

Yes

[Keldar]

Any ability that reduces a character to a single roll of the die is always a dick move.  Yes, I did just call thousands of DMs and a myriad of game designers dicks.  Its lame enough when players do it, but when the DM with essentially infinite resources does it, it becomes infinitely pathetic.

Friends don't let friends use save or dies.<sup>1


1</sup>Does not typically include save or lose, which generally will require two rolls or actions to kill anything.

[SorO_Lost]

According to my ouija board Gary Gygax says it's not a dick move and he suggests using a sphere of destruction.

[Solo]

Is using the evolved undead template (+1 LA +1 CR) to get a Sor/Wiz 6 save or die spell and subjecting the party to it in a CR 5 encounter a dick move? Just for the sake of argument, let's assume it's Circle of Death

If you have to ask...

[Baad Speeler]

According to my ouija board Gary Gygax says it's not a dick move and he suggests using a sphere of destruction.

That's hilarious.

Also, that is pretty much the view that I expected. Oh well. That means I go with my other planned encounter. If any of my players cry, I will blame you guys

[faeryn]

According to my ouija board Gary Gygax says it's not a dick move and he suggests using a sphere of destruction.

That's hilarious.

Also, that is pretty much the view that I expected. Oh well. That means I go with my other planned encounter. If any of my players cry, I will blame you guys

If they complain, you can always throw that evolved undead at them right after...

[ketaro]

According to my ouija board Gary Gygax says it's not a dick move and he suggests using a sphere of destruction.

That's hilarious.

Also, that is pretty much the view that I expected. Oh well. That means I go with my other planned encounter. If any of my players cry, I will blame you guys

If they complain, you can always throw that evolved undead at them right after...

"This isn't even my final form!"

[Pity Crit]

Dick move, bro.

[phaedrusxy]

If they have a warning beforehand, they can spend some of their precious gold to protect themselves (Death Ward scroll). I wouldn't feel too bad about it, then, but it would depend on the group.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Is the save in the 30s? I thought not. Then no, it's not a dick move.

Real heroes have fort saves.

[Baad Speeler]

Is the save in the 30s? I thought not. Then no, it's not a dick move.

Real heroes have fort saves.

And literally the entire party has a strong fort save. It would be a DC 17, and it could only effect a total of 10 hit dice worth of people on average.

If they have a warning beforehand, they can spend some of their precious gold to protect themselves (Death Ward scroll). I wouldn't feel too bad about it, then, but it would depend on the group.

There is nothing precious about gold in my games. That shit rains down like manna from the heavens.

[linklord231]

Edit:  Apparently this got posted in the wrong thread somehow.  Disregard.

[phaedrusxy]

I'll tell you what's a dick move: using that stupid construct that can spam Disintegrate and Mordenkainen's Disjunction (adamantium clockwork horror, IIRC, from MM2) as a CR 9 (which is what it is listed at). 

[linklord231]

I'll tell you what's a dick move: using that stupid construct that can spam Disintegrate and Mordenkainen's Disjunction (adamantium clockwork horror, IIRC, from MM2) as a CR 9 (which is what it is listed at). 

I think that CR 9 entry was written under the assumption that you'd be fighting him along with the 1-2 Platinum Horrors, 3-4 Gold Horrors, and 5-20 Electrum Horrors his Organization entry mentions.  That would make an EL 14 encounter.  DC 24 Implosion is still a bit much for a 14th level party, but it's not as bad. 

[phaedrusxy]

I'll tell you what's a dick move: using that stupid construct that can spam Disintegrate and Mordenkainen's Disjunction (adamantium clockwork horror, IIRC, from MM2) as a CR 9 (which is what it is listed at). 

I think that CR 9 entry was written under the assumption that you'd be fighting him along with the 1-2 Platinum Horrors, 3-4 Gold Horrors, and 5-20 Electrum Horrors his Organization entry mentions.  That would make an EL 14 encounter.  DC 24 Implosion is still a bit much for a 14th level party, but it's not as bad.

Oh, was it Implosion and MDJ? Hahahaha! Even worse. 

[Baad Speeler]

I'll tell you what's a dick move: using that stupid construct that can spam Disintegrate and Mordenkainen's Disjunction (adamantium clockwork horror, IIRC, from MM2) as a CR 9 (which is what it is listed at). 

...adamantium clockwork horror you say?

[linklord231]

Oh, was it Implosion and MDJ? Hahahaha! Even worse. 
[/quote]

It's all 3.  At will Disintegrate, Implosion, and MDJ. 

[Baad Speeler]

MM2 you say...

Also,

According to my ouija board Gary Gygax says it's not a dick move and he suggests using a sphere of destruction.

That's hilarious.

Also, that is pretty much the view that I expected. Oh well. That means I go with my other planned encounter. If any of my players cry, I will blame you guys

If they complain, you can always throw that evolved undead at them right after...

I like the way you think

[TuggyNE]

Is the save in the 30s? I thought not. Then no, it's not a dick move.

Real heroes have fort saves.

And literally the entire party has a strong fort save. It would be a DC 17, and it could only effect a total of 10 hit dice worth of people on average.

So roughly a 20% chance (assuming +7 Fort) to kill two party members, roughly a 50% chance to kill one, and roughly a 25% chance to kill none. Maybe a 5% chance of killing three. (If LA is involved, which is probably not the case, that would be a lot less happy.)

In the first round, or possibly the surprise round.

You tell me, man, is it a **** move to spring that on a level 5 party?