Author Topic: ...scratchscratchscratchscratchscratch... (Erudite Stuff)  (Read 11744 times)

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: ...scratchscratchscratchscratchscratch... (Erudite Stuff)
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2015, 05:26:04 PM »
Yeah that might be covering all bases.  RAI is (sorta) known.  The counter argument is every other time it's mentioned, it is not per level.

Wizards can still surpass the particular per level # , by memorizing lower level spells in higher level slots.  Technically, technicality.  Potato potahto.


hmmm ... I never had access to 3.0e Erudite, but that bonus UPPD seems like a good idea.  Might justify moving the bonus from Cha to Int, by the consolidated fester stats in 3.5e.
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: ...scratchscratchscratchscratchscratch... (Erudite Stuff)
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2015, 07:56:25 PM »
I like that house rule, though I think it should probably not give more UPPD than the class gives so you can't cheese the list into getting to be too big.  Then you'd have 2/12/22 UPPD as the caps for 1/10/20.  And you wouldn't have to worry so much about SAD dominance giving an excessive number.
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Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: ...scratchscratchscratchscratchscratch... (Erudite Stuff)
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2015, 03:22:52 PM »
What I don't like about the DR319 table is that it may manifest more unique high level powers per day than a sorcerer knows at higher levels (4 UPD vs. 3 spells known at spell levels 6th - 9th)

I would be inclined to nearly mirror the sorcerers spells known table as the Erudite's unique powers per day, or even at N - 1.


Offline Kethrian

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Re: ...scratchscratchscratchscratchscratch... (Erudite Stuff)
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2015, 03:32:21 PM »
If you want a table to mirror, I'd suggest Spirit Shaman.  They get 3 of each level per day by 20, and can change their list of known each day, making them the most similar class with regards to casting.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: ...scratchscratchscratchscratchscratch... (Erudite Stuff)
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2015, 04:05:10 PM »
to clarify my intent ...
I'm talking about using the CPsi rai UPPD, plus this nugget, the Int version:

... Editor (House rule): I found this on the internet and I rather like it. If you have extra power points and extra known powers based on intelligence, then why not extra unique powers per day? In that case you stick with the errata version then add 1 unique power per day per point of intelligence modifier. So an 18 Int gives you 5 starting unique powers at first, 10 at 10th, and 15 at 20th. Still rather limiting, but not crippling. You actually start off with more powers available than the psion and over time you fall behind. Also, it gives you the option to increase your unique powers per day by boosting your intelligence. Considering a 30 Intelligence isn’t unheard of (an extra 10 unique powers per day) I’d go with this one. It stops the Erudite from truly becoming disgusting (99 powers a day is a bit extreme), but doesn’t cripple them either. It keeps the spirit of the limitation, in my opinion.
Editor (Original House Rule): BTW, the original involved using Charisma as the ability for determining extra UPPD. Not sure why, doesn't make any sense. However, if you want to encourage your players to spread out the initial point buy a little, then pick Charisma. I guess the point is that if you are really hot, the universe is more likely to look the other way, or something.

Comments/suggestions/rewrites welcome.

This would keep the initial # of powers known at 2*level + Int mod once, quite similar to Wizard, expandable like Wizard until PsyRef makes self expansion, and a normal Uniques max limit of say high 20s.
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: ...scratchscratchscratchscratchscratch... (Erudite Stuff)
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2015, 10:43:10 PM »
I don't see anything wrong with the errata nerf 'requiring' players to "minmax to hell" just to get all the juice out of their tier one-topping class. Even without the tricks to get around the UP/d, the class is still on par with a normally-built sorc.

Offline Captnq

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Re: ...scratchscratchscratchscratchscratch... (Erudite Stuff)
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2015, 08:10:27 AM »
I don't see anything wrong with the errata nerf 'requiring' players to "minmax to hell" just to get all the juice out of their tier one-topping class. Even without the tricks to get around the UP/d, the class is still on par with a normally-built sorc.

Find me a player who looks at the (un)official nerf that says to themselves, "Meh. I can live with that." And DOESN'T immediately start to think of ways to get around the UPPD, and I'll retract the statement.

I have the same problem with real life. When there is a law on the books but everyone either ignores it or trying to end run it, the over all structure of the law is damaged (this is concerning a local zoning issue. Not applicable to this forum.)

The nerf is needed, true, but it does too far in the other direction. Why not just allow the Erudite to "learn" and cast from spell books? It'd be almost the same thing.

Was the intent to have the Erudite walking around with a HHH full of scrolls and power stones?

Was the intent to make taking Metaconcert, Arcane Fusion, Shadow conjuration, Shadow Evocation mandatory?

I hate metaconcert. I HATE IT. It's worded poorly. It's got implications I don't even want to post. If I cast transdimensional polymorph (you can target the entity), which can hit ALL dimensions, can I turn the critter into say... a tree? Then hit it with Awaken Tree?, then dispel polymorph to make a truly self-aware pure mental creature?

How about Magic jar? Can I magic jar the entity?

Not a big fan of Shadow magic either, but I can deal.

Next comes the action breaking like Celerity, Arcane Spellsurge, and Quintessence/Delay spell. Normally I'd shout "HELL NO!!!" but then the Erudite looks at me with BIG eyes and says, "But I can only use FIVE powers a DAAAAAAAAAaaaaayyyyyyyyy..."

I want to punch the designers in the face for giving the players the excuse they need to justify muchkining on this scale. And I agree its needed.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: ...scratchscratchscratchscratchscratch... (Erudite Stuff)
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2015, 11:09:52 AM »
Find me a player who looks at the official nerf that says to themselves, "Meh. I can live with that." And DOESN'T immediately start to think of ways to get around the UPPD, and I'll retract the statement.
You're looking at him.

Fact is is someone asked you to pick eleven 1st~8th level Spells/Powers from any list and you're allowed to use them all day long (sic mindfeeder or w/e) a real optimizer doesn't sit there and whine that 11 makes the challenge too hard. The cap is one aspect, it's one to break of course, but sooner or later Capt you're going to realize there are two kinds of optimizers out there. The crybaby ones that can't optimize but want overpowered shit to use so they seem cool so they need made up methods to do it. And the ones that like the discovery of breaking stuff and accept that limitations is how your motivated to learn more because knowing how means you, not just this one character, have skills and understanding.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 11:12:18 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Captnq

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Re: ...scratchscratchscratchscratchscratch... (Erudite Stuff)
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2015, 10:43:58 AM »
Lord this annoys me...
Hello. When was the last time you started at 1st?

When I start a campaign, I start at 1st. I run until it's unplayable. In the past 15 years I'm taken my players from 1st to epic 3 times

Everyone looks at the 11 and goes "11 should be enough." Yeah. if we all started play at 20th, it would be.

16 int domain or specialist wizard at 5th has 5/4/3 spells.
Char 16 Sorcerer has 7/5 and knows 4/2
Make that guy an Erudite and has 3 he can cast and can cast the 3rd level power 6 times, 2nd level 10, or a 1st 30 times. But often those 1st and 2nd are augmented up to 3rd level, so you're really somewhere between 6 to 10 uses on 3 powers. So average of 8/3 for the Erudite, 12/6 for the sorcerer, and 12/12 for the wizard.

Erudite gets less uses per day on average and less powers he can use. He just gets to pick whatever those three powers are and has a huge selection to choose from. That's the trade off, but in the simulation runs, at low level the trade off just isn't worth it. It doesn't scale well either. You HAVE to  Min/Max.

Let me put it this way. If a CStP Erudite had to pick only spells from the PHB and could not Multiclass, I'd put them on high end of Tier 3. And you bet you'll be going straight for shadow magic, Polymorph, and summoning spells.

When I run the simulations. It's low level. Boring. No tricks. Basic stuff. It avoids anything twinky to see how viable the classes are. Erudite does great the first encounter. Then he needs to take a nap. Given that none of the Reset spells are an option (they are banned) the Erudite needs to rely heavily on equipment, or go straight to twinking out. Sometimes I just randomly assign powers and spells to see how it works out. A wizard getting spells from the random scroll list does just fine. I give the same list to an Erudite and the death rate sky rockets. Without Scrolls/power stones, or the most abused spells/powers Erudite gets chewed up and spit out. And I'm not even penalizing him for paying the XP cost for the spells he knows.

Now, open the floodgates and he kicks ass. THAT'S the problem. You can screw up a wizard or sorcerer and bounce back. Erudite doesn't bounce back very well. Erudite has a very narrow path. Go off it too far, you can quickly find yourself useless.

You can't just look at the end build. You have to look at every level from 1st to 20th. With Erudite, there's no middle ground. You're a god or your a putz. If I eliminate every blue and purple level spell from the Spell Handbook, and just use green and orange, I can STILL play a viable wizard. I'm mostly buffing and using blaster spells, but it's viable, because he can adapt quickly and faster then an erudite, if he's willing to blow some XP. Do the same thing to an Erudite and He's good for one encounter. Maybe.

On paper that "All Arcane Spells" Looks nice, but in practice, unless I abuse the rules, it's not as useful as you think. A wizard can collect thousands of useless spells at little penalty. An erudite can't.

Erudite is unforgiving. If you aren't a Min/Maxer, the class with be nothing but frustration.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: ...scratchscratchscratchscratchscratch... (Erudite Stuff)
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2015, 01:11:28 PM »
Lord this annoys me...
Hello. When was the last time you started at 1st?
Tomorrow, if Prime gets the pbp up. Next question, what does that have to do with anything? If everyone is having one there is no wrong way to play and I'd quantify a guy that's played several games with different people to be more experienced than the same group that's only played 3 games.

But that's your post in a gist. Your opinion.

Like in your opinion an Erudite Manifests less because you think he has to fully Augment every single Power. In truth you only Augment damage effects which make up 0.00% of superior ran God-style casters. The Erudite Manifests more Powers per day because if you convert his points to Spells per Day or convert a Wizard's Spells per day to Points all Psionic Classes have more points than what it takes because they are expressly given more points to Augmenting. Like a 19 Int Wizard at the 5th level is 4/3/2 or 23 points vs the Erudite's 35 points or 5/3/4.

Next you complain about Known, but each mechanic between the three Classes is radically different and whenever you attempt to specifically measure one aspect to claim one is the best, you're ignoring all other traits. Like the Sorcerer might know 6/4 (because he is 5th level not 4th right? idk you're wrong there too) but can choose the ever popular Web and Grease multiple times but the Wizard who could Prepare 9 different Spells can only choose to use Grease once. If the Wizard makes an error in his Spell choice it takes a day to fix, a Sorcerer a level or a week of retraining so the Wizard generally has a better tailored list of Spells designed for what is expected rather than generalizing.

The Erudite introduces a third mechanic, technically he has no bad choices because his UPDs are chosen as he needs them rather than best guessing which gives him the exact specific list for the stuff that happens first or he can hold back some UPDs for general-use Powers much like a Sorcerer would choose his Powers. Like a Wizard the choices are reset every day, like a Sorcerer he can recast his favorite OP Spell multiple times without second guessing him self except this comes at the cost of knowing less "Spontaneous Spells" at the end of the day than the Sorcerer does. There is no clear cut answer between them but in trending the Erudite does have some marks of superiority. if you hate the idea of having to plan ahead and the DM throwing you douchebag curve balls and you still want the downtime versatility of being able to cast anything printed the Erudite is the only valid choice.

Let me put it this way. If a CStP Erudite had to pick only spells from the PHB and could not Multiclass, I'd put them on high end of Tier 3. And you bet you'll be going straight for shadow magic, Polymorph, and summoning spells.
Let me put it this way, if your Wizard could only pick Spells from Evocation he'd suck balls too. If your Barbarian could only pick Toughness we're not getting far. If the Monk cannot choose any ACFs he's pretty weak. But if the Commoner gets Chicken Infested holy crap can he be a TPK machine. And limited to Core-Only means you can't have an Erudite since they're Splatbook.  :rolleyes

Really through, you're thinking too small. Psychic Chirurgery teaches the Erudite 9th level Powers. The Epic Rules exist in the DMG/SRD also puts 9th level Spells-to-Powers on the table and the 4th choice of Miracle is to invent new Spells on the fly. Aka, cast Splatbook Spells in a Core-Only Spell Limit. This is something the Wizard doesn't have access to, and thanks to the nova-effect in Psionics the Erudite can Manifest over 25 Miracles per day before you even touch recharge mechanics allowing them to perform that function an infinite number of times per day.

Fact is Captnq, you rate the Erudite at T3 because you have apparently only played three games from the same pool of people in your life and you just don't have the knowledge or understanding of the game as a whole and have never seen it from any viewpoint other than your own. So even when the actual facts, such as point considerations, disagree with you no one has ever came out and told you that's not what the book says, probably because your style is fuck-you-I'm-the-DM or like you your players knew next to nothing about D&D. I'm seeing this trend in multiple threads, like you arguing with Fraen because you've never seen the word "when" in the PHB/SRD/RC before in your life and you'd rather go all in "find me one quote that says I'm wrong" like the books haven't been disagreeing with you the whole time. Reality check, your ideas of D&D don't match what D&D has published. This is why we go online and discuss the topic, to learn, to adapt, to process for the needed progress.

Offline Kethrian

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Re: ...scratchscratchscratchscratchscratch... (Erudite Stuff)
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2015, 03:41:04 PM »
My 2 cents?  Wilder starts with 1 power known, has 11 by 20, and is still a class I've played from 1st level.  Erudites get to spontaneously lock in their knowns each day, giving them nearly infinite more casting diversity over the Wilder, so yes 1 UPPD at lv 1 to 11 at lv 20 for an Erudite really does have enough.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: ...scratchscratchscratchscratchscratch... (Erudite Stuff)
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2015, 05:36:53 PM »
2nd-ing the Wilder ... because I think I've said elsewhere, a not really C.O.-ed Erudite can = bad Wilder in-combat.

C.O.-ed, In-combat
Wizard is pitching 6s and 5s , and then 4s 3s etc.
Erudite StP has Psion 6s and Wizard 5s, notably more ~slots, about the same top choices, far fewer low choices.

Out-of-combat
Wizard pile
Erudite StP Psion pile + Wizard pile
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Offline nijineko

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Re: ...scratchscratchscratchscratchscratch... (Erudite Stuff)
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2015, 01:21:14 PM »
There isn't a "legitimate" document for it, as far as I know, because it was never officially released.
Depends on what you define as legitimate. If you mean the Sidebar, example, intent, and Epic entry you have that.

It also technically states "level" which is a weak assignment that doesn't directly support the concept of "psionic power level", it merely can be misconshewed as such. Prior to mentioning and after mention that it's also talking classes. In otherwords, there is just as much evidence that the sentence can be read as unlike a Psion an Erudite manifests a certain number of UPDs for each of his levels according to his class levels.

There is also the second technicality.
An Erudite has 10 UPDs for each level per day.
An Erudite has 10 UPDs of each level per day.

(click to show/hide)

But we know what RAW means, and it has nothing to do with rules or what's written.

legitimate as in it's the same document that the author submitted to WotC, but it was never posted up on the site. i asked the author about the psionic errata one day, and he gave me a copy. some people won't accept it because WotC never posted it online, but it's what the author submitted, so it's as close as we'll get.

i think the link in my sig is now valid.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 01:24:37 PM by nijineko »