Author Topic: What Happened to People?  (Read 10148 times)

Offline Ziegander

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What Happened to People?
« on: December 19, 2014, 09:36:39 PM »
I've been following 5e, in fact, I'm a huge fan of 5e, and I've been running it for a group of players for a while now, but... what happened to the D&D internet community since 3e? Yes, I realize a lot has changed from 3e to 5e, casters are no where near what they used to be, and core 5e is WAY better balanced than core 3e, but I'm watching some old 3e stalwarts, well-versed with the system and the theory behind criticizing it, turn nearly 180 and talk about things like DM fiat and mundanes with no versatility like they're great design and the whole point of the system and that anyone who thinks otherwise are just missing the point. Someone literally just said something to the effect of, "yeah, that's D&D, casters have all the power, if you don't want that, play a different game." What happened to the old homebrew mentality, the old fix-it spirit in these guys, where a little rational thought and some creativity could make D&D so much more than its published parts?

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?387921-Martials-vs-Casters-Is-it-really-still-a-problem/page3) is becoming a source of dread for me.  I've stopped posting about it, because what I say just seems to fly over everyone's heads, and the opposition will just repeat the exact same points over and over again. Hell, in a thread discussing a lack of mundane versatility, someone, quite seriously, argued that it's not a problem that the Bard, a full-caster with its own powerful 1st through 9th level spells, has more mundane versatility than any mundane character short of the Rogue (and can be argued to have just as much mundane versatility as the Rogue). There was nothing I could do to convince anyone that the Bard, a powerful wizard, having greater mundane ability than the Barbarian and Fighter was an issue. Nobody wanted to hear it. Nobody believed it.

Offline Solo

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2014, 09:59:15 PM »
People are terrible.
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline bhu

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2014, 02:41:19 AM »
Some of its the "return to the good old days before 3e" hype.    There are an awful, awful lot of players out there who feel as a DM they are free to abuse, mock or belittle their players as much as possible, and in some ways 5e coddles that mindset as much as the older editions established it.  They like the return to abuse of DM fiat, because they felt squeezed out of the gaming community since 3.0.  Wizards is heavily selling it as a "return to versatility" as opposed to bluntly stating "we published the rules a year before we should have, so 5.0 will be our beta test before we release 5.5".

Offline Ziegander

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2014, 01:02:08 PM »
There's just so many people saying, "martials have just as much versatility as casters, because SKILLS, DUH," when they really mean "mundanes" is besides the point (except when they confuse themselves by using the term "martials"), and then I say casters get just much benefit from skills as everyone else and they go, "nuh-uh, Rogue!"

When I, or anyone else, mention that skills do next to nothing, they argue that they do everything you can imagine, and I'm just not being imaginative enough to use them. The whole concept of DM fiat flies over their heads, and they seem to apply this mentality with a point of pride, like when they play a mundane they can be more imaginative than when they play a caster. One person went so far as to say that if a caster uses skills, skills must be better than spells. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?!

Offline Nanshork

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2014, 01:59:13 PM »
People are dumb.

Also, welcome back.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2014, 02:37:07 PM »
Anything to drag the Grogs into modernity,
but you can't fight all battles all at once.

I've noticed a steady supply of Late-Adapters
show up at wotc, and spew the same drivel.
Not just now for 5e, but month after month
and year after year.
They don't know the arguments and are
predisposed to be anti-anti-anti.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2014, 05:09:10 PM »
Q: What Happened to People?
A: You're getting old and could swear that these new kids that keep popping up are even dumber than you used to be and ten times louder. ;)

What ever happened to walking in and asking a question instead of saying the answer right? Like, I'm lazy and poorly motivated. Can you summarize the GitP thread for me because I've barely read up on 5th and couldn't tell the difference on my own.

And that wasn't an example. I really am poorly motivated. No pbp for 5th recruiting up (I don't think) and the last real tabletop D&D game I played I made my friend laugh so hard he passed out, broke his glasses, and bled on the floor. So is there a tl;dr version?

Offline Baad Speeler

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2014, 06:55:21 PM »
People are terrible.



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Offline Ziegander

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2014, 10:57:54 PM »
Q: What Happened to People?
A: You're getting old and could swear that these new kids that keep popping up are even dumber than you used to be and ten times louder. ;)

It's true. I'm almost 30 now! Hell, I don't feel old at all.

Quote
What ever happened to walking in and asking a question instead of saying the answer right? Like, I'm lazy and poorly motivated. Can you summarize the GitP thread for me because I've barely read up on 5th and couldn't tell the difference on my own.

No, I mean, the thread isn't all that important, just the gist of it is that there are a few rational people over there mentioning that, yeah, 5e is way more balanced than 3e core, and mundanes got a lot better, and even though spellcasters got way nerfed they still have WAAAAAY more options in combat and out, but those few get shouted down by a few rtards constantly parroting the same arguments that you can do anything you want with ability and skill checks and a Rogue with Expertise is better at anything than a spellcaster trying to do anything remotely similar. And they honestly think that spellcasters can't do anything that's not covered by skills/ability checks aside from teleportation, summoning, and like... I don't know something else. Literally, I will have to quote you for this, because you have to see it to believe it, but multiple people have made the claim that there's only three or four things any caster can do, even with 9th level spells, that a mundane can't do with ability checks/spells.

Quote from: Silveralen
Again, this isn't true. Invisibility, charm, and suggestion spells actually are less effective than a normal rogue. Many classes lack the spell selection and slots to be that versatile. Druid and Wizard are two of the better ones in this regard (rituals, regain some spells on short rest, reasonably fleshed out spell lists) but even then flying, teleports, and bringing the dead to life are about the limit of things martials can't do narratively that casters can (and to be fair I'm not sure anyone wants those abilities for martials regardless).

That's the only quote I could find, but I know he's not the only one to insist that invisibility is worse than Stealth and that those are the only things magic can do that mundanes can't. He's even said that I must be unfamiliar with the system because I disagree with him.

Oh, and also, even though 1st level damage spells got a massive boost (Magic Missile, Inflict Wounds, even Burning Hands), and even though there are guidelines in the DMG specifying a 1st level healing spell should heal 2d10 damage, there are people arguing, for many pages, that Cure Wounds is a balanced spell, despite it staying exactly the same spell it was in 3.5, while Magic Missile tripled in effectiveness.

EDIT:
welcome back.

Oh! Also, I meant to say: "Thank you!"
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 11:42:19 PM by Ziegander »

Offline bhu

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2014, 07:13:09 PM »
Some part of this may be you're discussing it at Gitp.  Don't get me wrong they have  some smart people there, and I have friends there I love like family.  But they are outnumbered.  And as such i sometimes think they rarely get involved in arguments.  Who wants to eternally but t their heads against a great wall of ignorance?  Better to wait for an argument important enough to be worth the headache.

Offline linklord231

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2014, 01:57:19 AM »
Better to wait for an argument important enough to be worth the headache.

 :lmao
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline bhu

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2014, 04:38:16 PM »
Better to wait for an argument important enough to be worth the headache.

 :lmao

In my defense, given Gitp's overly reactionary and arbitrary banning policy, I find veeeeery few things that would be worth arguing about there.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2014, 05:10:41 PM »
Like ...  :plotting ... what size Bag Of Holding is needed, for all the Coal that Santa is bringing?


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Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2014, 02:18:32 PM »
Like ...  :plotting ... what size Bag Of Holding is needed, for all the Coal that Santa is bringing?


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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2014, 03:39:43 PM »
Literally, I will have to quote you for this, because you have to see it to believe it, but multiple people have made the claim that there's only three or four things any caster can do, even with 9th level spells, that a mundane can't do with ability checks/spells.
From what I know of 5th, yeah that sounds dumb.

But then again, it's not like Wish is f'ing useful.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2014, 04:44:16 PM »
Like ...  :plotting ... what size Bag Of Holding is needed, for all the Coal that Santa is bringing?

(points fingers and tail at self)

Hey, I never knew you were a tiefling.

no no, oops I see I referred to my kitty avatar's wrong reference.
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Offline Amechra

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2015, 11:25:51 AM »
I do want to make a note that at least Invisibility doesn't make Stealth obsolete.
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Offline Ziegander

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2015, 07:04:36 PM »
I do want to make a note that at least Invisibility doesn't make Stealth obsolete.

Certainly not, but when it can allow a caster to hide right in front of a creature that can see you, something a +50 modifier w/Stealth will never allow you to do, I will never understand anyone trying to claim that Stealth is outright, always better.

Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2015, 11:40:54 AM »
I do want to make a note that at least Invisibility doesn't make Stealth obsolete.

Certainly not, but when it can allow a caster to hide right in front of a creature that can see you, something a +50 modifier w/Stealth will never allow you to do, I will never understand anyone trying to claim that Stealth is outright, always better.

Eh, depends on conditions of being able to make a mundane hide check. Seems to be some easier methods in 5e. Usual problem of course is that you don't rarely have a choice of the battleground.
Majority of monsters in MM with truesight are fiends & celestials.
Since it's on damn near everyones spell list, with 1hr no concentration, certain to show up on high level caster encounters too.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: What Happened to People?
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2015, 03:09:48 PM »
Stealth is better Zie.

In 3rd Invisibility and the like is overcome by things like See Invisible(most casters have), True Sight (most casters have), Blindsight (all tds have), Tremorsense (most terran mobs have), and don't forget the detection traits like Scent (animals), Blindsense (oozes), and bags of flour (everyone). HiPS + Darkhidden skips all of them. In addition, Move Silently is still useful even if you have Greater Invisibility vs random mook forcing Wizards to still care about their stealth skills.

In 5th Truesight is handed out to quite a few mobs and again shows up in higher level casters and it's still useless against Stealth of course.