I NEED to know if being under a section label limits the ACF.

[Captnq]

ACFs.

Some state exactly that you have to have X to qualify, and some are up in the air. ALL of them are under some sort of listing like Ranger or Monk.

So, if I had a ACF that said (give up level 1 bonus feat) and I had a class that had a level one bonus feat, but the ACF was listed under say, Wizard, or Erudite, or Psion (nomad). However, the actual ENTRY ITSELF didn't say anything about you needed to be have anything from being a Wizard, or manfester level, or specilized in being a nomad.

Ignore the fact that some ACFs would be pointless and useless, What is the RAW?

I certainly know the RAI of the situation. No question. I'm talking TO here. Absolute limit here of how far you can push it.

I'm leaning towards No, simply because it would be a whole lot less work for me, but If I'm going to work out the ultimate guide to stuff, I need to have absolutely EVERY POSSIBLE RAW COMBO. That means even if I don't want something to be a certain way, I have to consider it.

Case in point, the most extreme cases I can find.

Erudite is actually a Variant class of psion.
Being a variant of the original class, you should be able to use

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a

Pick any ACF for a specific Psion subtype. Can an Erudite take it?


Ever more extreme example:


Psion (egoist)

Change Shape

You gain the minor change shape ability, like that of a changeling.
Level: 1st.
Replaces: The bonus feat at 1st level.
Benefit: You gain the minor change shape ability that is possessed by changelings.

The Bonus Feat says only The Bonus Feat at 1st level. So a fighter get "bonus feats" at first level.

Can he take it?

The ACF is under the Psion (egoist) entry, but nothing specifically says it HAS to be only Psions.

Does it say that it does SOMEWHERE?

Save me the need to redo EVERYTHING I've been working on.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

You can take whatever you have the ability to swap. Listing out all the combinations is of no use that I can see.

[linklord231]

The article you linked mentioned that it expands upon, and thus inherits the rules from, the Expanded Classes chapter of PHB2.  One of those rules is "Alternative class features replace class features found in the original class description" (PHB2 pg 31). 
So, since the Change Shape ACF is an expansion of the original Psion class, a Fighter could not trade away his 1st level Bonus Feat for it even though the Fighter's Bonus Feat class feature has the same name as the Psion's Bonus Feat class feature. 

It gets a little more murky with things like the Variant Classes from Unearthed Arcana.  They generally specify that you get a certain class feature "as [class X]".  Does that mean you can then trade that class feature for one of Class X's other variants?  It's unclear. 

Generally, I'd advise treating ACFs and Variant Classes the same - either you can "chain" all of them, or none of them, with the clarification that class features with the same name but different mechanics (such as a Wizard's Bonus Feats compared to a Monk's Bonus Feats compared to a Fighter's Bonus Feats) are treated differently. 

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Huh, that's kinda interesting.

So an Erudite variant Psion, takes the Discipline acf = the same Psion Discipline only minus teh nifty title like Egoist, and otherwise the same for purposes of.

I like it. 
I wanna see tighter wording (than my kitty avatar).

[Captnq]

Okay, going to be the devil's advocate here.

I'm agreeing that a Psion Bonus feat is not a fighter bonus feat. Therefore, no Fighter picking up psion ACFs. (although, I admit, fighter sucks, so I wouldn't mind from a game balance PoV.)


The Online Web enhancement has the sections labled clearly:

PSION (Kineticist)

However, the ACF does not specifically state that you need to be a Kineticist, just that you have the control object power to take Greater animator. An Erudite can gain that power (he'd have to pay XP, but its possible)

Can the Variant Erudite take this ACF?

I REALLY want it to be no. I SO WANT it to be NO.

I really need a clear answer here. I need to know if being under a section label limits the ACF. As much as I want it to be one way, I need the best RAW answer you can give. I'm getting a migraine just thinking about this.

You can take whatever you have the ability to swap. Listing out all the combinations is of no use that I can see.

My guides are the very definition of exploring what is of "no use". The reason being, if you don't know what doesn't work, you won't know how "what does work" works


Is there some rule SOMEWHERE that says ACFs listed for say, Wizards, but ALWAYS be for wizards?
Ironically, when I looked at the Wizard specialist ACFs (closest comparison I could find), they all specifically state you need to be a specialist. The implication is, if it doesn't specifically limit you, it doesn't limit you. Which flies in the face of the rule, just because it doesn't say you can't, doesn't mean you can.

I wonder if I got the flu. I literally am feeling sick about this.