Help find Psionic PrCs that don't suck

[Captnq]

I just spent 6 hours banging my head against the wall and I'm about to give up.

I need every PrC that does the following:
1. Advances your manifester level in your base class. If it doesn't advance on the first level, it's useless. If it stops advancing at some point, I cannot take it past the dead level.

2. No Race Specific PrCs.

I've found... three. I'm willing to look at Dagger Spellmage or other Arcane PrCs that have psionic variants possible. But the conclusion I have is they all suck.

What am I missing? If anything jumps out, let me know.

[Raineh Daze]

The first thing that would probably help is "Which three do you already have".

[Keldar]

Thanks to the in house haters at WotC, Psionics got relatively little support.  And when it did the PrCs actually tended to keep the rule that casters lose a spellcaster level while the others eventually power crept over that.  We are talking about the only power type to get an uncalled for mid edition nerf in its lone splat book.  Not even fighters got that in their one splat.   

That said, have you checked Eberron?  I don't have all the books, so I have no idea what psionics got beyond Talashtora from Secrets of Sarlona.

Generally speaking though, any PrC that doesn't directly interact with spellcasting can be adapted to psionics in the amount of time it takes to rename it.

[Captnq]

Thanks to the in house haters at WotC, Psionics got relatively little support.  And when it did the PrCs actually tended to keep the rule that casters lose a spellcaster level while the others eventually power crept over that.  We are talking about the only power type to get an uncalled for mid edition nerf in its lone splat book.  Not even fighters got that in their one splat.   

That said, have you checked Eberron?  I don't have all the books, so I have no idea what psionics got beyond Talashtora from Secrets of Sarlona.

Generally speaking though, any PrC that doesn't directly interact with spellcasting can be adapted to psionics in the amount of time it takes to rename it.

I did check out Eberron. They have a real lack of psionic PrCs. You'd think with all the-

Wait. Allow me to amend. They have a lack of GENERIC Psionic PrCs. Race specific crap coming out the ass. But generic?

Here's all the classes I found that even VAGUELY were psionic related.

ABJURANT CHAMPION
ANARCHIC INITIATE
ANCIENT MASTER
ANIMA MAGE
CEREBREMANCER
CHAMELEON
COGNITION THIEF
CRYOKINETICIST
DAGGERSPELL MAGE
DIAMOND DRAGON
EBON SAINT
ECTOPIC ADEPT
ELOCATER
FANG OF SSETH
FIST OF ZUOKEN
FLAYERSPAWN PSYCHIC
HOLY SCOURGE
ILLITHID SLAYER
ILLUMINE SOUL
IRON MIND
MAGICAL TRICKSTER
METAMIND
METAMIND
MINDBENDER
MOUNTEBANK
PSIBOND AGENT
PSION UNCARNATE
psionic Assassin (Ebberron)
PYROKINETICIST
PYROKINETICIST
Quori Mindhunter (Eberron)
SANCTIFIED MIND
SERPENT SLAYER
SHADOWMIND
SLAYER
SOULBOW
SOULKNIFE
STORM DISCIPLE
THRALLHERD
WAR MIND
WONDERWORKER
YUAN-TI CULTIST
ZERTH CENOBITE

I wish to cry.

[Captnq]

Oh. Wait. Checking out the dragon mags didn't turn up much, but I did find something... odd

(Dragon 313)
Mind Mage - Supposed to be Illithid only, but technically anyone can take it. Found it with the Psi-Spell feats. Those I like. excellent addition to my Erudite handbook.

but it's a MultiClasser PrC. And it nerfs you two levels of Arcane caster and Psionic caster.

However, combined with cerebramancer, could be cool.

I hate delving into the online DLC crap. I think I'm going to. Arch Psion looked like a good choice, if it wasn't something that had to wait until 14th level.

[zook1shoe]

Mind mage is cool, but a dual caster-manifestor

[sambojin]

Cerebramancer is the only one that really stands out. It depends when you take it on the psi/magic split, but it's the only one that flat out doesn't suck.

It doesn't specifically give you anything cool, it just doesn't suck. It's actually quite nice for a magicy run. But it's not great by any means.

[Captnq]

Technically Abjurant Champion can be reworked as a psionic class, but there are no actual rules on it, and clearly parts of the class would need to be reworded. 5 levels = +5 ML

Anarchic Initiate is 10 levels of 10 ML of stuff that seems to randomly screw you or other people, but no real net benefit, unless you think being able to plane shift people to limbo at 10th level is cool. Or, if you think sending the party treasure away is cool.

Elocator is only good the first level, and it requires spring attack, which is two dead feats (dodge and mobility) That's a hefty feat tax to be able to float 1 foot off the ground forever.

Now Mindbender has a dead level at 2nd, but the first level is nice Eternal Telepathy. problem is all four skills you have to buy are Cross Class, so you need to buy a level of Anarchic Inititate to get the skills first. The psionic version only needs 3rd level powers manifested, so you can pick it up at 6th for the Erudite.

Shadowmind has a dead level at 2 and the first lever power just ain't worth the effort.

The Arch Psion is worth it, even with the steep 3 feet tax. Unlimited Shape Power and Greater Psionic Focus +2 and +3 (which stack) are my top 3 picks. I'd actually only take 3 levels, normally. But the Reach Power bought twice does have its appeal.

Now Shadow Mind (not be be confused with Shdowmind) is rather easy to get into, and has some nice perks for the first 4 levels. It stacks with your psicrystal (other PrCs do not), gives you access to new Astral Construct menu items, gives you some limited DC bonuses, and at 4th you get a funky shield of shadow and telekinetic power forged from the fears of your own subconscious that grants a +7 AC and 30% miss chance chance based on concealment. When does that ever get old? You almost don't mind the 1 Feat tax. Alas, it doesn't get cool again until 8th (where you get power resistance) and 10th where you get to copy yourself and use your duplicate to manifest powers through. Could be awesome, but a bit of a slog to get to.

Crystalsinger is only for people who want to make items.

Finally, The percipient is just plain weird. Unless the idea of a third eye in your forehead that shoots gaze attacks (kinda meh attacks at that), and grants a heafty Initiate PENALTY is your think, I don't know if I'd even look at it.

Those are all the classes that don't cost you manifester levels Of all the other psionic PrCs, is there any that MIGHT be worth the loss of Manifester level?

[Aliek]

Thrallherds are usually worth the lost manifester levels, but that's nigh-obvious.

I like metamind for practiced manifester ardents. Especially with dominant ideal, though it is definitely a (very) late bloomer.

[Keldar]

Slayer and Sanctified Mind are probably each worth the lost level at 1st for a Gish build.  Psionics suffers a lost level far more happily than PHB magic classes after all.  Even without Practiced Manifester.

But yeah, psionics is the red headed step child of D&D.  Too many people have a very, very narrow idea of what should be in D&D and act like babies when someone gets even a little creative.   

Metamind is pure, unadulterated garbage.  It trades access to higher level powers in return for having fewer power points.  Someone wasn't capable of doing fucking first grade addition. In either edition.   

You may want to look at the Mind's Eye material from the web.  Its the only rules published by WotC that actually listened to forum critiques and edited to account for feedback.  Rather than edited for tantrums.   

[Captnq]

Well, Erudite 5/Constructor 10/Ectopic Adept 5 is looking like a winner. I hate the level of specialty, however.

I'm right now Eruidite 5/Anarchic Initiate 1/Mindbender1/ Something 10 / Arch Psion 3. Don't like the Chaotic only requirement.

Don't need to work on another thrawlherd handbook. There are enough right now.

Been thinking of an Erudite/Warlock combo, since Cerbremancer and Psychic Theurge boost both classes. I so hate multiclassing if it costs ML levels, but it would make for one hell of a clawlock

Anything jump out as Erudite 5/ SOMETHING / Arch Psion 5? that doesn't use Anarchic Initiate?
Anything?

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Remember, you probably lose the 2 powers per level,
if your psi class levels => Erudite's class levels.

A.I. gets to act like a partial Wilder, which dovetails nicely with recharge.

Ectopic Adept is trash meant for the AC summoning nerf.
Why can druids still pump out 2+ summons, but psi gets nerfed?

There's a Heroes Of Horror +1 festing per level 13 level prc,
in Mind's Eye somewhere.  You need HoH to play it right.

[nijineko]

well, the erbauer can multi-summon astral constructs. i currently have one who is soul-jumped into a dagger for her body.

i have a seer using a sangehirn as a base. she is surprisingly good at creeping people out.

there's my athas variant soulknife, illumine soul, and soulbow combo; he's pretty effective.

i have a pyrokineticist or two, a psionic based shapeshifter who can wildshape (without druid or ranger levels), a psionic artificer that has proved fun to build things with, and a few other odd classes here or there.

all of them work out pretty well for me.

pretty much all of my characters these days are either psionic, or have psionic elements in the build.

[Captnq]

well, the erbauer can multi-summon astral constructs. i currently have one who is soul-jumped into a dagger for her body.

Yeah, got that one.

i have a seer using a sangehirn as a base. she is surprisingly good at creeping people out.

Hey... an Erudite 5/sangehirn10 basically nullifies the disadvantage of the class, because Erudites need to spend XP to buy everything anyways. I wonder what the last 5 levels should be? Fast healing and untyped DR is nothing to sneeze at.

Do untyped DRs stack? Like, DR 5/- and DR 3/- from being a barbarian? I forget. I don't think so.

Ooo.... Add on Monastic Training/Tashalatora.
A Fast healing, DR Psionic Wizard monk.

I really need a combat orientated...
Abjurant Champion. Should make about as tanky a PC as I've seen in a while.

Eruidite 5/Sangehirn 10/Abjurant Champion (psionic varient) 5 with Monastic Training and Tashalatora. Maybe 2 levels of Monk for the evasion, Meh... Have to think about it.

there's my athas variant soulknife, illumine soul, and soulbow combo; he's pretty effective.

Yeah, but a bit way too off the concept for an erudite. The focus of an Erudite is Many Many Many Awesome Spells and abuse of the fuzzy blurring of spells and powers.

i have a pyrokineticist or two, a psionic based shapeshifter who can wildshape (without druid or ranger levels), a psionic artificer that has proved fun to build things with, and a few other odd classes here or there.

Wild Shape Erudite... Not seeing that one, but be interested in seeing how you'd pull that one off.

Pyrokineticist cripples ML advancement, the whole point of the Erudite Experience. I'm willing to consider losing one to three levels of ML for an alternate build, but It really needs to bring something to the table other then "HotHotHotHotHotHotHot"

[SolEiji]

Do untyped DRs stack? Like, DR 5/- and DR 3/- from being a barbarian? I forget. I don't think so.

Can't get a rules quote right now (busy) but I believe those from race/class stack, but it doesn't stack with items (which renders adamantine armor pretty pointless frankly).

[Captnq]

This looked so good...

Psychic Weapon Master At 5th level you can buy up your crystal weapon until it's a +5 weapon and it gains the ability to hold psionic Focus like a psicrystal. It doesn't say it replaces your psicrystal.

So you also get Psicrystal containment and now you have three held psionic focuses, or enough for 3 metapsionic feats at the same time.

However, Psychic Weapon master has to take:
Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack, Psionic Dodge, Psionic Weapon, Weapon Focus.

I've never seen so much feat tax before on a class that requires you to burn so many XPs. Now, Psionic Weapon and power attack. Okay. not bad. The other four? By Gygax's Ring, that sucks HARD.

[altpersona]

no stacky the DR, typed or untyped... 

[sambojin]

@Captnq

Where is Arch Psion from? I'd love an Energy Wall shaper. Probably with research into making it horribly upgradeable with more PP. But if it's unlimited'ish sculpting, there's got to be more useful uses for it. Which book?

Control Light looks great if you can turn the sculpt as each turn goes. That'd be scary.

Otherwise it's just mega-energy-cone/blast/whatever. But they mis-worded so many psi-things to take all the "things" into account that there has to be cool things.

Which book? I'd love to see (and buy) original text. SRD stuff tends to leave things out.

But a meta-widened/extended, cone-shaped 80' Energy Wall of extreme death (or sonic siege-engine) that you can just leave there sounds too delicious. There's things there, in that Arch Psion thing.

ps. Energy walls are opaque. They can't see through them. That's more horrible than anything. Cone shaped walls of non-vision and damage. In'y or out'y damage.

[sambojin]

#1 Scuplting horrible, terrible seige engines. 2d6-2 doesn't sound great for (sonic) damage. Until you know it will knock down anything, and you can not ever hit a city wall's damage cap. 40' cone? Not many walls are 40' wide. You may be able to widen this area. Who has 80'  wide walls? It doesn't matter if they do. You can set up a sonic smasher wall beside their's, 100'+ long, then put another one up afterwards, a bit further in. But yours has fully functional units in it, plus you can do stuff while it's obliterating things. Wall, cone, cubes, burst, whatever. Sonic SMASH! Hardness be damned. Super-ultra-seige-engine for a lvl 3 power.

You'll just shatter them slowly. With a few spaces left for an elite entry team (ie: you and your party).

#2 Four ten foot cubes. Do these cubes have to be joined together? Or just within 100'+ range? Or did you just get a mini-multi-persistent fire/cold/lightning/sonic-ball that you can sculpt around allies? Nice.
ps. Does the area split carry the 2d6+caster/2d6/1d6 area of the original power? On creature, within 10', within 20', in'y/out'y? Because, if the does, woah. Like woah. It's an area power, so it can be sculpted, and it has effects. Like woah. Rufus. Call 912. Someone's gonna need an ambulance.

#3 Just sculpt the Energy Wall. Any energy-based WSA's you or your party has on their weapon just got done for 5PP. Every turn the enemies will get hit at your ML for 2d6 (maybe plussy/minusey) while you do other stuff (solicit that psicrystal). It's not defensive, but you can lock down your own party if you think they're stupid. They have a choice. Move, or wait. Don't be stupid again. But you can protect any squishy or BSF you want, but you can't just cancel it at a whim. The only downside of the power, sculpted or not.

#4. Try and convince your DM that any power you have concentration on is able to be re-sculpted while you have concentration on it. Do it. Watch them retract that ruling.

[Captnq]

@Captnq

Where is Arch Psion from? I'd love an Energy Wall shaper. Probably with research into making it horribly upgradeable with more PP. But if it's unlimited'ish sculpting, there's got to be more useful uses for it. Which book?

Mind's Eye Website.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20021122b

And yes, unlimitish sculpting.

(click to show/hide)

The arch psion can modify an area power by changing the area's shape. The new area must be chosen from the following list: cylinder (10-foot radius, 30 feet high), 40-foot cone, four 10-foot cubes, or a ball (20-foot radius spread). The sculpted power works normally in all respects except for its shape. The arch psion can further alter the shape to create spaces within the power's area of effect that are not subject to the power. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. For example, the arch psion could manifest a firefall power whose area is changed to a cone that deals the same amount of damage, but affects a 40-foot cone burst. The arch psion could also leave a hole in the area of the firefall where her ally stands, preventing any damage. This ability causes the character to permanently lose 9 power points.