Author Topic: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin  (Read 12258 times)

Offline Risada

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2069
    • View Profile
[3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« on: January 23, 2015, 12:57:59 PM »
I have one player in my tabletop group that is quite unhappy with his current character's performance in combat. Defense wise, he's alright with it. The problem is when he's attacking. His character has no offensive presence.

He is using a sword and board Paladin with the ACF from Complete Champion to swap spells for feats and the Sword of Celestia ACF to swap his mount with a magic sword. Sources allowed are... Everything. Even Dragon Magazines and 3rd party.

Human Paladin 5/Hellreaver 7
B: Power Attack (in this table there's a houserule that everything gains an additional feat at 1st level)
1: EWP Bastard Sword
H: Improved Initiative
3: Shield Specialization
Pal4: Divine Shield
6: Extra Smite
9: Shield Ward
12: Protection Devotion

Another fact is that this paladin did not invest on his weapon for a while... Mostly because he needs to spend XP in addition to GP.

How can this be salvaged so he can become a threat to the enemies? The feats and class levels can be swapped, but the less changes the better.

I have a few ideas that might help:

- Grab the Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (+Charisma fire damage);
- Take one level of Exotic Weapon Master to access Uncanny Blow and be able to use Power Attack with his one handed bastard sword as if he was two handing it; Not possible
- Convince the paladin to fork over the xp required to enchant his Sword;

Any other ideas that might help in this situation?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 07:34:42 AM by Risada »

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2015, 01:35:23 PM »
Sword and Board is tough damage-wise.  Also, it's worth noting that he's invested a lot in defense, and virtually nothing into offense with the current build, so not being a damage machine is not surprising. 

Probably the most effective S&B Paladin damage dealing is to use the ACFs to grab Inspire Courage, Words of Creation, and Dragonfire Inspiration.  S&B can be turned effectively into TWF with a few feats, and there you go.  However, with the Hellreaver levels, I don't know if that will be effective enough.

Power Attack is always a great, relatively low investment way to go, though.  The "board" thing makes it more difficult since you're not using 2 hands with your weapon, so it ends up being really sub-par.  I admit that reading Uncanny Blow kind of makes my head hurt.  But, assuming it lets you fake holding a one-handed exotic melee weapon in two hands -- which is a totally reasonable ability by the by -- then that's a godsend.

The other thing he might think about doing is finding big bonuses to hit to help fuel his Power Attack.  The usual charger shenanigans seem a bit at odds with the concept as they involve sacrificing AC -- and therefore what seems to be his tankiness -- for damage.  I'd suggest looking into possibly swapping the Protection Devotion for Law Devotion, which gives him a great tactical option.  Unless the party really benefits from the AC buff.  You can also look into Divine Might:  it burns through turn attempts quickly, but it gets the job done if he's got the Charisma for it.  And, if memory serves, Hellreaver gets some decent attack bonuses with their special abilities (and there's a feat that reduces ability damage, it's in XPH but I'm away from my books right now, but that should allow him to refuel those abilities easily). 

I'd also ditch Extra Smite:  unless you've seriously house ruled it (e.g., using Pathfinder's Paladin smite), I usually find whatever you gain from that to not be worth it.  Even Extra Turning might be great with all the divine feats.

And, he should totally fork over some XP for a badass sword.  Or, even take something like the Ancestral Relic feat.  You get XP quickly, so he should just get over it.  It's silly that you have to spend XP to like play the game effectively, but it is what it is.  Alternatively, I think there are some GP ways to circumvent XP costs, but I haven't played with XP costs in years, so I'll leave those to somebody else.

I've rambled a bit already, but one final note.  Are enemies avoiding him, or is he just not feeling like he's hitting hard enough?  It sounded like the latter, but at some tables tanky characters end up feeling useless b/c the enemies never let them tank.  If that's the case, then he should invest in some lockdown abilities:  like Lockdown and the Mage Slayer line.  Come to think of it, the Mage Slayer feats, especially the latter ones, might be a lot of fun for this type of character.  Sure, it doesn't help his damage, but spectacularly shutting down all of the enemy's abilities with a swing of his mighty sword is both impressive and flavorful.  He might also consider finishing out with Witch Slayer. 

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2015, 01:52:57 PM »
Let him add the effects of a Manyfanged Dagger (serpent kingdoms) and his attacks will deal four times what they deal now. Problem solved. :)

Offline Risada

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2069
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2015, 03:10:17 PM »
I'd also ditch Extra Smite:  unless you've seriously house ruled it (e.g., using Pathfinder's Paladin smite), I usually find whatever you gain from that to not be worth it.  Even Extra Turning might be great with all the divine feats.

The smite here is the 3.5 one. The only houserule already applied here is allowing Hellreaver levels to stack with Paladin levels for smite damage.

And, he should totally fork over some XP for a badass sword.  Or, even take something like the Ancestral Relic feat.  You get XP quickly, so he should just get over it.  It's silly that you have to spend XP to like play the game effectively, but it is what it is.  Alternatively, I think there are some GP ways to circumvent XP costs, but I haven't played with XP costs in years, so I'll leave those to somebody else.

What's your opinion on Weapon of Legacy? There are a few abilities worth noting (the SLA at will before level 10 is particularly amazing if used with the Smite of Sacred Fire spell, from Forge of War - your smite deals +2d6 dmg and all subsequent attacks on the target deal +2d6 dmg).

I've rambled a bit already, but one final note.  Are enemies avoiding him, or is he just not feeling like he's hitting hard enough?

The enemies avoid him.

Usual events on a turn.

Paladin engages BSF baddie, attack deals ~20 dmg
BSF baddie attacks Paladin, most likely miss
Orc Berserk engages baddie, attack deals ~40 dmg
Warforged Juggernaut charges, attack deals ~50 dmg (he is not running a full ubercharger build yet)

On the next round, the warforged or the orc get smacked, not the paladin, since they are more "dangerous" than the puny paladin. Both have low AC values, so the attack is most likely a hit.


Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2015, 06:16:55 PM »
Just to be up front about it, this is my opinion.  Although hopefully it's a thoughtful one.

@Weapons of Legacy
They are neat and all, but ultimately very cumbersome.  I find the amount of work, as a player, they take to not usually be worth the reward.  To the extent that you'd be doing this for somebody else, I'd say pass.  Also, if he's a Paladin, ye olde Holy Sword/Avenger is awesome.  So, hopefully he can get his hands on one of those in the not too distant future.


@More Generally
This is really tough actually.  The reason is that the other 2 characters you mention are front-line melee'ers, too.  Meaning, the Paladin can't really even relish his tanky role:  the people he'd "tank" for are also going to be in the melee mix.  That's assuming there's not these super important squishy characters who you just didn't mention.  It also highlights some of the problems with the tank role in D&D, which have been trod over in other threads on these boards.  But, hey, who doesn't like a challenge? 

My suggestion, given the goal of keeping the character both a Paladin and relatively tanky would be to do something like this.  Probably ditch Hellreaver and go Dragonfire Inspiration. Here's my thinking.  To make his defenses matter, and clearly the player is at least pretty into defenses, the baddies need to have an incentive to punch him.  If he's the source of a spectacular buff, like 8d6+ damage for everyone's attacks, then he'll have painted a giant glowing holy target halo on himself.  Then again, he's got a strong enough jaw to take it. 

At the same time, I might do the Shield -> TWF route (or just armor spikes, I guess) so that he's getting the most mileage out of his big damage buff.  True, his damage is going to still lag behind the other guys, especially with his big buffs affecting them, too.  But, his damage will be respectable, and he can claim some credit for their awesomeness now, too.  Robilar's Gambit and Double Hit might also be nice options, although that might have the effect of discouraging the enemies to attach him.

This isn't the only way to do it.  It's just the one that occurred to me and seemed closest to the extant character concept.  A Cleric/Paladin hybrid would similarly paint a target on his chest. 

Offline Risada

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2069
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2015, 06:46:34 PM »
The current PC compostion, for reference:

Human Paladin (Silver Flame) 5/Hellreaver 7 - melee bruiser / wannabe tank, the one being worked here.
Warforged Fighter 8/Warforged Juggernaut 4 - melee bruiser / wannabe ubercharger, spent a lot of feats on Warforged-related feats.
Orc Fighter/Feat Rogue/Exotic Weapon Master/Berserk (don't remember exact class levels) - Melee bruiser/ Wannabe barbarian, uses Battle Fury and kill stuff. Currently away due to RL.
Hobgoblin Duskblade 12 - melee attacker; working up on some mounting build (picked up Wild Cohort feat to get a tiger).
Human Mystic Ranger/Child of Khyber/Arcane Archer: uses Sword of Arcane Order to cast some wizard spells. Focused on DPR.
Human Druid 12 - not focused on anything. Likes to blast
Human Fighter/Ranger - Archer focused on damage and attacking VERY far (Far Shot, Ranged Weapon Mastery, Dragonbone Bow, Flight arrows....).

The ones in need of protection are 3 - 2 of them casters.


I will talk him into rebuilding to Initiate of Milil (how will this fit with Silver Flame is up to me), but I am more than glad to see more opinions.

Thanks for the help so far.

Offline Captnq

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1602
  • Haters gonna hate. Dragons gonna drag.
    • View Profile
    • Ask the Captain
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2015, 07:24:21 PM »
Me? I'm an equipment guy. I can take a commoner and stick enough awesome equipment on him and he's a force to be feared. Lets take a stroll through the EVD.

AUGMENTATION!!!
Mutate the crap out of that Paladin with Warp Touch! Then cut off the non-functioning limbs to add on limbs that give you extra strength or con. Maybe Maug spike stones.

1,000 gp for Mighty arms. Never go wrong with mighty arms.

Shield stuff:
Animated. Now he can use a shield and still wield a two handed weapon. Put a spike on the shield. Now it's a weapon and a shield. You can now treat it like a double weapon, sort of. The weapon side needs Flying. The 3.0 version. makes it a flying weapon that can take an attack on it's own. So it floats near you animated, but on it's own action, it attacks! Then you add bashing. Now it's two size classes bigger for damage purposes. Can't go wrong with called.

He's a damage sponge? Arrow Catching! All arrows aimed within 5 feet of him veer to hit him instead. Now he's taking one for the team!

Energy Defense is a damage aura and damage auras are nice for damage sponges.

Heraldic Crest Ferocity is always nice.

Hrmm... I'll think about what to do with the weapon side of the shield later.

« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 11:49:21 AM by Captnq »
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline Captnq

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1602
  • Haters gonna hate. Dragons gonna drag.
    • View Profile
    • Ask the Captain
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2015, 07:54:15 PM »
Ooo! If you won't allow animated, graft a bite attack into your mouth, take Mouthpick for the weapon side of the shield, then you can hold it with your teeth, thus freeing up your hands to two handed weapon fight for the extra damage!

Assassination is also always a good choice. Remember, there are plenty of paladin friendly poisons called Ravagers.

if you are getting a Shield with Ferocity, make sure to look at (Berserker, Brash, Crazed, Furious, and Fury) Gives you extra rage and you do extra damage when you are raging. Nice synergy.

Paladins can always use Mighty Smiting, but that should go on his sword.

And of course the standard, Haboob, Smoking, Wrathful healing, Whirling... Shadow strike... maybe.

Now, how to add buku damage. Well, the main problem is a melee weapon usually can only be increased by itself. However, there is a way around that...

Illithid Weapon graft!

We graft that sucker right onto his hand! It becomes a natural weapon! Now we can use a Necklace of Natural Weaponry to pump up that weapon! That's another +10 in WSAs we can put on his main melee attack! So Like +3d6 Acid, +3d6 Electricity, and +3d6 Fire on top of his base attack, is easy, then energy surge lets you add an extra 3d6 of on of the three. Flaming, crackling, acid dripping longsword hand might make it a bit hard to masterbate, but your enemies with die screaming, no doubt about it.

Okay... maybe he isn't willing to cut off his limbs and mutate his flesh. So we need to get a wee bit creative.

Okay, we need to give him more options. There is a WSA called opposable. It lets you wield a weapon in any of the nine weapon slots. For example, your elbow, or your head. So we stick Opposable on Talon Scepter, put it on top of your head, and now you can shoot a ruby ray that does 1d6 fire damage as swift action every round! Not much, but it's a swift action, and how often does a paladin use his swift action?

Think of the many weapons you can wield at your knees and elbows! Might seem silly to have a whip-dagger on your left knee, but that doesn't mean you can't take a cheap shot out at 15 feet any less effectively.

I'll try and come up with some other options later.
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline ketaro

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4243
  • I'm always new!
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2015, 09:04:04 PM »
I know the thread title says 3.5, but take a look at the Pathfinder Paladin archetype Sacred Shield.
It doesn't help him offensively, but damn will it bump him so much defensively that his defenses will literally overflow into his allies in combat making it not just harder to hit the other melee bruisers, but also able to make it harder to hurt even if you hit thus making it more worthwhile for enemies to target the paladin tank like any tank would want the enemies to do :p

Otherwise get him some natural  attacks that aren't claws, cause his hands are full, (bite, tail, wings, tentacles?) and get him Pounce.
Or even just get him to Animate his Shield and upgrade to a 2handed weapon and ditch the Exotic Weapon Prof. feat. At the very least, his Power Attack will hurt a lot more.

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2015, 03:14:09 AM »
Uncanny Blow from Exotic Weapon Master still requires the character wield the weapon in two hands.

Power Attack on a 1-handed weapon tends to not be worth it.  If he got an animated shield and could go 2h then it'd do better.

Getting him to spend XP on the weapon probably won't do enough for him.  The best damage option is perhaps the Collision enhancement which is a +2 enhancement for +5 weapon damage. 

Have you guys considered the Crusader for him?  The maneuvers should help keep him relevant and they also help in regards to being a proper tank by keeping baddies off teammates.  Maneuvers are most easily taken care of by making cards for each one and the random nature of crusader maneuver recovery is doable with shuffling them.

For what it's worth, unless you're doing house rules the Divine Shield feat can't be taken as a paladin bonus feat.  Extra Smiting can be, so swapping those works out alright.  Divine Shield itself is a bit blah because it's just turning the character into more of a turtle.

Awesome Smite might be something the character could do, but the trip maneuver does still use the character's actual strength bonus and other trip modifiers so it's not so workable for someone who hasn't specialized in that.

Divine Might would help the character do more damage, but it'll clash with the Divine Shield feat on turning uses.  Retraining Divine Shield into it could work pretty well.  Also, since it's a big part of his character he should have more turning uses from items and such.  The class booster guide has Turning boosters in the Cleric section, plus some others are in the Paladin section.

If the character never goes 2-handed then the Spinning Sword from Secrets of Sarlona would work as a fine weapon and allow for going more into lockdown.  Or just threatening stuff in a wider area.  The character still gets 1x strength to damage with it.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 04:21:14 AM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2015, 03:30:24 PM »
12) Leadership feat

... for a small to tiny Sorc 10 that focuses on buffing the snot out of him.

"Hey guys, say hello to my deity's little friend."
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2015, 07:29:57 PM »
12) Leadership feat

... for a small to tiny Sorc 10 that focuses on buffing the snot out of him.

"Hey guys, say hello to my deity's little friend."

I have this image in my head of someone who looks like they've taken a cat familiar, but in actuality the "familiar" is a Tibbit caster with Surrogate Spellcasting.

Damn, Wild shape (tiny) is only gained at 11th level.  No druid fun stuff to work with yet it seems.

Offline Solo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1778
  • Sorcelator Supreme
    • View Profile
    • Solo's Compiled Works
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2015, 07:54:40 PM »
Human Paladin 5/Hellreaver 7
B: Power Attack (in this table there's a houserule that everything gains an additional feat at 1st level)
1: EWP Bastard Sword Law Devotion (Just use a longsword if you're going to S&B)
H: Improved Initiative Protection Devotion
3: Shield Specialization
Pal4: Divine Shield
6: Extra Smite Divine Might
9: Shield Ward Extra Turning (Shield Ward requires Shield Bash, and he doesn't have it anyways)
12: Awesome Smite
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline Risada

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2069
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2015, 07:27:01 AM »
...Shield Ward requires Shield Bash, and he doesn't have it anyways...

I don't see it here: http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/shield-ward--2596/

Thanks for the suggestion, Solo.

Uncanny Blow from Exotic Weapon Master still requires the character wield the weapon in two hands.

Really? One less option then.

Have you guys considered the Crusader for him?  The maneuvers should help keep him relevant and they also help in regards to being a proper tank by keeping baddies off teammates.  Maneuvers are most easily taken care of by making cards for each one and the random nature of crusader maneuver recovery is doable with shuffling them.

Despite my efforts to prove otherwise, most people of the group believe "Tome of Battle is too OP! Too Anime!"  :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead


Divine Might would help the character do more damage, but it'll clash with the Divine Shield feat on turning uses.  Retraining Divine Shield into it could work pretty well.  Also, since it's a big part of his character he should have more turning uses from items and such.

There's the 3.0 version from Divine Might that lasts Charisma modifier rounds. I am more than willing to allow him to use this version.


I know the thread title says 3.5, but take a look at the Pathfinder Paladin archetype Sacred Shield.
It doesn't help him offensively, but damn will it bump him so much defensively that his defenses will literally overflow into his allies in combat making it not just harder to hit the other melee bruisers, but also able to make it harder to hurt even if you hit thus making it more worthwhile for enemies to target the paladin tank like any tank would want the enemies to do :p


This archetype is awesome! Thanks for the heads up.

Lots of equipment suggestions.


Thanks for the help, Captnq.

I will show the guy this thread and see what he likes. I will tell you guys later what he chose.

Thanks again for your help.

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10717
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2015, 07:18:14 PM »
You could go the pseudo-bard route, and pick up "From Smite to Song" to let him convert his smites into Inspire Courage. Then dip crusader and pick up Song of the White Raven, and maybe even make him draconic somehow (template, etc) and nab Dragonfire Inspiration.

Though it isn't damage, a Sudden Stunning weapon in the hands of a charisma-focused character is all kinds of nasty for a ridiculously cheap price.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 07:20:17 PM by phaedrusxy »
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2015, 08:16:29 PM »
You could go the pseudo-bard route
One of CV's ACFs does that a bit better.

You can also just use Initiate of Mihal or w/e. Your Paladin level can be used to qualify for the different kinds of Bardic Music. While several other effects can independently grant an Inspire Courage ability the Initiate-granted version is noted to be Bardic Music which is pretty nice but a little abusive. You can always just dip Bard and take Devoted Performer through.

Offline Risada

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2069
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2015, 06:12:24 AM »
Thanks for all the input, guys.

I showed this thread to player and he enjoyed the Sacred Shield PF archetype and the animated shield idea. Since both of us are kind of busy IRL, we will meet on the weekend to discuss more.

Offline ketaro

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4243
  • I'm always new!
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2015, 06:38:31 AM »
Animated Steel Tower Shield yo~

Total cover is stupid annoying in the middle of a melee fight :D
Cover it with armor spikes that do some retalitory stuff when people attack you(the shield). I know at least one armor enhancement that does something like that in MiC :p

"Why you killin' yo self? Why you killin' yo self?"  :rolleyes

Okay maybe that becomes a little d'baggy but *shrugs*

Edit: Did I mention Awaken Construct your Animated Shield then take it as a Cohort with Leadership and give your Shield class levels? How about something with Whirling Frenzy? The Shield is a talking blender now  :lmao

Sorry, I'm going over my own potentially future character ideas now. -_-'
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 06:42:14 AM by ketaro »

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2015, 09:23:08 PM »
Tower shields can't be given spikes, but a large shield can.

Offline ketaro

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4243
  • I'm always new!
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Salvaging a Sword and Board Paladin
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2015, 12:37:15 AM »
Which is incredibly stupid. Nothing can actually stop some one from putting spikes on a steel tower shield, logically. A wall of spikes man.

Awaken that shield, put a customized fullplate on it, put armor spikes on the shield's fullplate.

DONE AND DONE.