Ashardian Dragon and Eligoran Dragon (Binder Dragons)

[oslecamo]

Bump. This doesn't seem to have been edited sine February 2, not updating any of the latest things discussed.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

I do have plans to get this done, I just have not had any free time for the last few months do to moving and school and stuff =P
I should be able to start work on stuff again by the start of June if not sooner unless something comes up.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

Okay I pushed those updates through finally.

Pushed vile damage from the breath weapon back to 9th. Might switch it to 8th and bump locate object up to 9th but meh it doesn't matter probably it can either way I think.
Stuck a effect on the breath weapon in place of the vile damage that makes creatures that fail their saves be treated as being in shadowy illumination. It will really only effect creatures that lack low-light/dark vision so I don't think it should be a huge concern, but Im only just starting up again so I might be lacking on my sense of power more then usual. Let me know if it is an issue.

Clarified a few of the other things as well.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

I kind of have a base going for the Eligoran Dragon.
It needs quite a bit more work, and some of those abilities are subject to change of course.

Did a little editing to the Ashardian Dragon and put up a few feats related to it's use of its soul eating class feature.

[oslecamo]

Ashardian Dragon looks good and pretty cool now. A minor detail is that Ashardalon's Fury says near victims are allowed a Fort save against the flames, but doesn't say what happens if they make the save. I would suggest negate the damage as auto-hit vilefire may be a bit too cruel.

Eligor's Conviction seems a bit OP healing half your HP whenever you use a conviction point besides the DR. Also should probably clarify that conviction points can only be used in the ecounter they were gained unless you want the Eligor dragon to do emo-cutting to himself every minute.

Actually you may want to add some clause only damage from enemies grants conviction points, otherwise you're promoting setting up situations where the party opens with situations where the Eligor dragon gets a bunch of paper cuts right away to maximize conviction.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

Ashardian Dragon looks good and pretty cool now. A minor detail is that Ashardalon's Fury says near victims are allowed a Fort save against the flames, but doesn't say what happens if they make the save. I would suggest negate the damage as auto-hit vilefire may be a bit too cruel.

Eligor's Conviction seems a bit OP healing half your HP whenever you use a conviction point besides the DR. Also should probably clarify that conviction points can only be used in the encounter they were gained unless you want the Eligor dragon to do emo-cutting to himself every minute.

Actually you may want to add some clause only damage from enemies grants conviction points, otherwise you're promoting setting up situations where the party opens with situations where the Eligor dragon gets a bunch of paper cuts right away to maximize conviction.

Sorry that was a error, Conviction is actually supposed to heal 1 hp per Conviction point, up to half HP, not half HP per point.

The Conviction points can only be gained during an encounter and he can only get 1 per round from damage (Ill probably have a feat that increasing the number of times per round but). Id imagine it wouldn't make much too much of a difference if he is getting those points from allies hurting him or enemies sense he can get only so many at once anyways, especially if they are dealing damage to him from a non AoE source.

Don't got too much problem with the emo-cutting either, it is a bit of a nod to Mortification of the flesh.

Probably will specify they are lost at the end of an encounter as well so they don't carry over, and specify they are gained in combat encounters against enemies only.

[oslecamo]

Looking good so far, but with the OPEN parts in the table, am I correct to assume you're still working on it?

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

Looking good so far, but with the OPEN parts in the table, am I correct to assume you're still working on it?

Yes, was running Finals last week and I just started up my Summer classes so Ive got only precious time to spare.
Ill probably start getting some of it done in class once I get lazy and start ignoring my Python Instructors lectures, which should be any day now.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

Got a little update in because I haven't done anything in forever.

Added in the Eligor's Sacrifice ability at 9th level.
Moved Elemental Affinity(2, Overcharge) to 10th level, and Elemental Affinity(3, Infuse) to 18th level, mainly because I wanted to fit Sacrifice in at Lv9 instead of 10.
Put a clause into Frightful Presence so that non Eligoran Dragons are effected by it, because Dragon hunting dragon.

I think I actually have a bit better idea what I want to do with the remaining abilities, just need to flesh them out. Might do it tonight, but homework needs attending to first.

EDIT:
Put in Eligor's Charge at 14th level. I think I made it a bit to strong, but am not to sure sense it is a 1 every 5 rounds ability. Looking for some extra input.
Put in Eligor’s Traction at 12th level, which is a quicker but more limited version of Ashardalon's Dominance
If those are fine, I'll just need that 16th ability, which I think I will make just a Quicken Vestige kind of ability useable every 5 rounds for 1 conviction. Probably.

EDIT2:
Also need to do it's skills as well and go through all the abilites for spelling and naming errors.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

Welp Eligoran Dragon is completedish
I think.

Probably just needs to go through critiquing.

Also removed wis bonus to checks from Eligors charge, sense the dragon will have huge bonuses from size and strength anyways.

[oslecamo]

I believe Eligor's charge is more complicated than it needs to be with the whole Aoo minigame. You're already making free overruns and dealing energy damage with basic movement, and making enemies lose Aoos just feels more like fiddly accounting than anything cool or really useful.

Also, is there any reason why the Eligor dragon wouldn't want to be binded with Eligor all the time? It can bind other vestiges over it and everything from a quick reading.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

I believe Eligor's charge is more complicated than it needs to be with the whole Aoo minigame. You're already making free overruns and dealing energy damage with basic movement, and making enemies lose Aoos just feels more like fiddly accounting than anything cool or really useful.

Also, is there any reason why the Eligor dragon wouldn't want to be binded with Eligor all the time? It can bind other vestiges over it and everything from a quick reading.

Yeah I cut out the AoO part. Generally pushing targets out of the path should prevent AoOs for the rest of the group anyways, which is a large intent of the ability.

I clarified in the body class feature that the Ritual Armor is hosted in it and requires Eligor to be bound to it in order to grant its protection against the damage and fatigue the dragon gets. Generally the majority of class features require the Dragon to be bound to Eligor in order to be used. Eligor does not count against your limit on how many vestiges you can bind so there is no reason not to bind to him.
I noticed I forgot to stick the Eligor Required clause on a lot of the earlier abilities, and have fixed this.

[oslecamo]

The Eligoran Dragon seems to have some empty levels yet.

I would suggest moving the final growth+tail slap to level 19, Frightful Presence to level 15, and... Still need something for level 17.

Also just to make sure, this is a completely custom monster, right? Since I didn't find any in tome of magic, and searching in google only leads here.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

The Eligoran Dragon seems to have some empty levels yet.

I would suggest moving the final growth+tail slap to level 19, Frightful Presence to level 15, and... Still need something for level 17.

Also just to make sure, this is a completely custom monster, right? Since I didn't find any in tome of magic, and searching in google only leads here.

Yes it is completely custom.

I could do that stuff.
Need to do some editing clean up as well.
I need more free time and coffee

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

Beep Boop
Summer classes finished up and I got all the other things I needed to attend to so I finally got some time to do a update.

Moved the stuff you suggested. Stuck in the Ever-Eating class feature for Ashardians and Posed Conviction class feature Eligoran Dragons at 17th level. Basically a small number of starting Spirit/Convcition points for the dragons at the start of an encounter for quality of life and to make 17th not to much of a dead level.

Gave each of them alternate class features so that they are not reliant on the Tome of Magic. Ashardian Dragon is pretty straight forward Sorcerer casting and the ability to cast spells through his breath weapon as a full round. Eligoran get Cleric/Paladin casting at 1 level lower then the Ashardian (12th) so it doesnt get 7th level spells. I cut out the bit about it getting it's HD as it's CL so it will have lower spellcasting power overall from having lower number of spell slots, lower CL, and no spontaneous casting, but with access to the Paladin spell list as well it makes up for it with sheer versatility I think. It also gets the ability to swap out spells to an extent at 12th so it is a pseudo spontaneous casting going on to an extent. It also gets a quicen spell with harmless spells once every 5 rounds.

Finally I put in a bit about Half-Dragons.

Just need to put in a few feats for the Eligoran Dragon to match the Ashardian Dragons.

[oslecamo]

As it is now Spellflame is basically strictly better than the red dragon's Burn. And Burn is limited per day. Simply being able to use your breath weapon and cast a freely enlarged spell on the same round is already very, very powerful. Would strongly suggest removing the lingering effect and make it have limited uses per day.

Not very sure how paladin casting would stack with a cleric progression of spell slots.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

As it is now Spellflame is basically strictly better than the red dragon's Burn. And Burn is limited per day. Simply being able to use your breath weapon and cast a freely enlarged spell on the same round is already very, very powerful. Would strongly suggest removing the lingering effect and make it have limited uses per day.

Not very sure how paladin casting would stack with a cleric progression of spell slots.

Okay for spellflame ill drop the lingering damage and I guess Cha mod uses per day.

Vindicator blood is worded very poorly I now realize. Fixing to make it make more sense (I think)
Mmmmmm, maybe it would be better to stack 1/3rd paladin levels instead of 1/2. That way Dragon 2 / Paladin 18 would only reach 4th level spells comparable to normal paladin casting.
Mmmmm though it might be better to just remove that clause that allows the paladin stacking, it is a bit weird =P

[oslecamo]

It's probably best to remove the paladin stacking.

Plus getting both cleric and paladin spells ir kinda OP since those are supposed to go in a class with much lower level spell slots. And there's several very good paladin spells out there (cough favor of the martyr cough).

Also the more I think about it, the more I believe the arcane Ashardian dragon is plain superior to the binding one. Sorceror casting will be just plain better than binding, in particular when you're not sacrificing anything else. Really I don't understand why you added those spellcasting ACFs when the purpose of this dragons was supposed to be binding dragons.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

It's probably best to remove the paladin stacking.

Plus getting both cleric and paladin spells ir kinda OP since those are supposed to go in a class with much lower level spell slots. And there's several very good paladin spells out there (cough favor of the martyr cough).

Also the more I think about it, the more I believe the arcane Ashardian dragon is plain superior to the binding one. Sorcerer casting will be just plain better than binding, in particular when you're not sacrificing anything else. Really I don't understand why you added those spellcasting ACFs when the purpose of this dragons was supposed to be binding dragons.

Meh, it was a simple path for a ACF that would be core compatible. Generally casting will be superior to Binding of equal level, barring the summoning Vestige. The casting ACF might just put them a bit above the other dragons as well sense I was making the other class features a bit more bulkier to cover for the weaker Binding they get compared to most other dragons having the spells, and I really didn't consider that after the fact.

I could throw out the casting though if you want. It would take a bit more work to make alternatives to cover the binding potential gained each level but it is doable. I could just empower all the other abilities each of the dragons get in exchange for the lost binding instead perhaps.

Hmmmmmmm.

Maybe Favored Enemy Dragons for the Eligoran Dragon as a ACF?
Fiendish resistances for the Ashardian might not be exactly amazing. Could give them something similar to the capstone at a lower level, obviously weaker because a Resurrection would be op, but something involving a demon of some sort as a minion.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

You know, would Maneuver Progression over spell progression be cool?
There are a few fitting Disciplines for both types of Dragons that would work well enough, and it would certainly be weaker then spell progression to even them out.
Not core, but maneuvers seem to be fine around here for the most part.