Author Topic: Have they simplified too much?  (Read 15049 times)

Offline bhu

  • Uncle Kittie
  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 16304
  • Fnord bitches
    • View Profile
Have they simplified too much?
« on: February 08, 2015, 06:16:11 PM »
I sort of like 5e so far (the pbps im in keep falling flat), and while fooling about with character making i notice that by drastically simplifying from 5e they may have simplified too mcu, and may soon face  a problem where in new material is the same mechanically as what they've already done, but with different fluff.

Offline TenaciousJ

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • AVENGE WAGON
    • View Profile
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2015, 07:35:24 PM »
For now I'm happy with the simplicity.  I'm running a weekly game at a game store with 7 players in it, and the simplicity of the rules is making combat run smoothly even with that many players.  I can set a timer to each person's turns and they're not having issues dealing with it.  I worry about variety a little bit, but I think most players don't get to play in enough campaigns to really exhaust all their possible character options unless they stick to the same edition for longer than WotC keeps an edition as the current one.
Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA

Offline Dictum Mortuum

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 467
    • View Profile
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2015, 07:41:28 AM »
I'm playing a vengeance paladin currently in a game that runs every week or so.
What I've found out from this edition is that there has been a shift of complexity from pre-game planning to in-game planning.
Dictum Mortuum's Handbooks: My personal character optimization blog.

Offline Shadowhunter

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 765
  • E6/E8 fanboy.
    • View Profile
    • The additional vestige collection for all you Binder players out there.
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2015, 08:19:47 AM »
Now I haven't played 5e, only read the books, but to me it seems they have not simplified too much, at least not compared to 4th.

Offline Nunkuruji

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • I shall bring great terror
    • View Profile
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2015, 10:40:02 AM »
To cross threads a bit, I think what they're looking towards with Artificer as a kit is a good idea.
I don't think we need a whole new base class just to have spells rename/fluffed as "infusions".
With the way they've set things up, I don't see much point in introducing new base classes unless it is a new system, like Incarnum, Binding, or Psionics*.
(*Even psionics is spells with spell points and a different spell list, but it deserves its own, as with wiz vs. sor)

3.x with its tons of mechanics is very cool, but let's face it, it gets out of hand.

They just need to make sure that whatever they add is interesting and fun, and not just +numbers.

Also keep in mind that the designs are also intended to work easily gridless as well.

So, no, I don't think it's too simple. I think they hit the right balance.

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2015, 12:28:18 PM »
I'm playing a vengeance paladin currently in a game that runs every week or so.
What I've found out from this edition is that there has been a shift of complexity from pre-game planning to in-game planning.
Can you say more?  I only played a preview or two of 5E, and have perused a little bit of the books.  But, when I was playing an Elven Ranger at some event I had the opposite feeling.  I just had essentially 0 options.  I had to pick up a shield to even try and give myself some level of meaningful tactical choice, at the expense of sacrificing the defining aspect of my character's abilities (two weapon fighting).

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2015, 12:29:57 PM »
When you get down to it, 3e boiled down to a bunch of ways to get bonus numbers on your roll.

Plus, 5e is still fairly complex; it's just fallen into the mid-range rather than the high range.

As for "same thing mechanically, just different fluff"? Dude, include the fluff in the mechanics. I guarantee you, getting Advantage on Dexterity saves while in Kitty Form brings different strategies to the table than getting Advantage to Dexterity saves while drunk.

EDIT: The Paladin has a bunch of moving parts; the Ranger doesn't.
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline TenaciousJ

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • AVENGE WAGON
    • View Profile
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2015, 03:40:27 PM »
I'm playing a vengeance paladin currently in a game that runs every week or so.
What I've found out from this edition is that there has been a shift of complexity from pre-game planning to in-game planning.
Can you say more?  I only played a preview or two of 5E, and have perused a little bit of the books.  But, when I was playing an Elven Ranger at some event I had the opposite feeling.  I just had essentially 0 options.  I had to pick up a shield to even try and give myself some level of meaningful tactical choice, at the expense of sacrificing the defining aspect of my character's abilities (two weapon fighting).

I would probably judge 5th edition harshly if I had spent my time playing a ranger.  Ranger is easily the worst designed class in 5th edition.
Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA

Offline bhu

  • Uncle Kittie
  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 16304
  • Fnord bitches
    • View Profile
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2015, 05:44:23 PM »
My point is, to keep the game going they need to sell more books.  3e did it by adding new mechanics as an option, but those mechanics still built off pre-existing rules.  They've simplified, and in doing so reduced the amount of mechanics to do so.  3e had multiple types of bonuses/penalties which might or might not stack, 5e just has advantage or disadvantage.  3e has multiple defensive special abilities, 5e just has resistance or immunity.  While I do like the simplification, I'm wondering what it bodes towards future development of the game, how long that game will be around, and how long till the next edition falls.  I wonder if they'll quickly run out of options they can pursue, and so either re-complicate with a 5.5, or see it kind of meh out after the newness wears off.

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2015, 07:35:49 PM »
I'm playing a vengeance paladin currently in a game that runs every week or so.
What I've found out from this edition is that there has been a shift of complexity from pre-game planning to in-game planning.
Can you say more?  I only played a preview or two of 5E, and have perused a little bit of the books.  But, when I was playing an Elven Ranger at some event I had the opposite feeling.  I just had essentially 0 options.  I had to pick up a shield to even try and give myself some level of meaningful tactical choice, at the expense of sacrificing the defining aspect of my character's abilities (two weapon fighting).

I would probably judge 5th edition harshly if I had spent my time playing a ranger.  Ranger is easily the worst designed class in 5th edition.

I'm glad to see that my assessment isn't totally crazy.  When I did the playtest/preview/whatever I remember, I deliberately chose between the Ranger and the Fighter to see how the new system handled that.  And, it felt very much like, yet again, casters rule and warriors drool.  Specifically, as I indicated above, I had a paucity of interesting things to do.  Chucking d20s was pretty much my only option with the pregen, which didn't bode well as both of those concepts have been with D&D for a long, long time. 

My basic impression is that 5E is very much in line, spiritually, to AD&D/2E.  Basically, you can see it in the fundamental game structure:  class + race is the main decisions you have to make at character creation.  This falls into ymmv territory, but that kind of structure is actually what steered me away from AD&D back in the halcyon days of my youth.  Although, honestly, Pathfinder very much has that structure, too, and somehow I've gotten sucked into playing PF.  So far it's been fine, as the game has enough new classes and combos to keep me interested for a while at least. 

My ideal is to not start off thinking "I'll play a Cleric" but to have a character concept that naturally steers me towards a particular class, combination, etc.  Although, again, ymmv.

More on topic, though, the damning thing from my limited experience, and what prompted my question, was the lack of in-game options, at least with that pre-gen character.  Not that 3E was necessarily brilliant about this -- you rarely tripped or disarmed unless you were built to do it -- but I was hoping that 5E would be a marked improvement in this regard.  I mean, that's what a later edition is supposed to do, isn't it?

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2015, 11:14:51 PM »
It's dumbed down for the lesser newer generation but 5th closely models after 3rd giving us the much wanted update rather then the generically bland and even more simplistic 4th.

In 5th, some options are traps, others are number breaking in the context they are in. The limited choice feeling you get is the lateral move from 90+ splat books, countless online articles, 2nd party additions, and failed 3rd party fixes, to *drum roll* three books. Just give it a few more months.

Offline Dictum Mortuum

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 467
    • View Profile
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2015, 04:11:56 AM »
I'm playing a vengeance paladin currently in a game that runs every week or so.
What I've found out from this edition is that there has been a shift of complexity from pre-game planning to in-game planning.
Can you say more?  I only played a preview or two of 5E, and have perused a little bit of the books.  But, when I was playing an Elven Ranger at some event I had the opposite feeling.  I just had essentially 0 options.  I had to pick up a shield to even try and give myself some level of meaningful tactical choice, at the expense of sacrificing the defining aspect of my character's abilities (two weapon fighting).

I agree that the ranger isn't fun at all.

Playing a paladin, well, let's just say that I've got a bunch of options when it comes to my bonus action. I can use divine favor, vow of enmity, smite spells and bonus attack with my polearm master. All those options are kinda 'equal' from an optimization standpoint - I don't count for instance the shield of faith spell as a candidate for taking up my bonus action.

There is some beautiful interaction with polearm master's opportunity attack when an enemy enters your threatened area; I love discharging thunderous smite on that attack and sending them back.

My action is used for attacking 95% of the time of course.

It's not that difficult to understand which is the best option that you have in the situation you're in. However, this character was generated in just 15 minutes.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 04:14:34 AM by Dictum Mortuum »
Dictum Mortuum's Handbooks: My personal character optimization blog.

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2015, 11:30:26 AM »
So what I'm hearing here is that the Ranger needs a rewrite?

I think the subclasses are more-or-less fine, it's just that they're bolted to a terrible chassis. After all, a Ranger (without looking at their subclass) has no real combat class features other than Fighting Style and Foe Slayer (OK, there is Feral Senses, but that's it.). They rely entirely on subclasses to get combat stuff, and then they have to choose between "have a decent pet" or "being up to par in combat".
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline TenaciousJ

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • AVENGE WAGON
    • View Profile
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2015, 11:37:36 AM »
So what I'm hearing here is that the Ranger needs a rewrite?

I think the subclasses are more-or-less fine, it's just that they're bolted to a terrible chassis. After all, a Ranger (without looking at their subclass) has no real combat class features other than Fighting Style and Foe Slayer (OK, there is Feral Senses, but that's it.). They rely entirely on subclasses to get combat stuff, and then they have to choose between "have a decent pet" or "being up to par in combat".

They don't even get a decent pet out of beastmaster though.  That option is painfully weak since the pet is not really independent from the master.  Find Familiar gets you a lot of the benefits of that pet and it's available through a feat.
Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2015, 12:14:49 PM »
The thing is, Beastmaster seems to be more about having a combat pet than a utility pet.

And it's pretty decent for combat (adding your Proficiency to their attack and damage is pretty nice, I would say.)
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2015, 12:28:05 PM »
They don't even get a decent pet out of beastmaster though.  That option is painfully weak since the pet is not really independent from the master.  Find Familiar gets you a lot of the benefits of that pet and it's available through a feat.
You are aware that Familiars can't attack. Ever. Right?

Offline sambojin

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 472
  • It's a game. Have fun.
    • View Profile
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2015, 03:53:42 PM »
What level is your ranger at? I will admit that it's one of the most mechanically simple classes though. Like many things in D&D, it's a case of "just add magic" and it's fun. Or add a different class level or three. Anything really. Rangers can be pretty damn boring.

If you're really wanting to stay as a mono-ranger, then grab magical initiate as a feat early on. Even a level one spell and a couple of cantrips makes the class far more fun to play. It's actually worth the stat loss just so you've got other things to do. It can even be optimized so it's about as good as the stat gain as well (for at least one encounter per day, but possibly more).

Offline TenaciousJ

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • AVENGE WAGON
    • View Profile
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2015, 03:56:20 PM »
They don't even get a decent pet out of beastmaster though.  That option is painfully weak since the pet is not really independent from the master.  Find Familiar gets you a lot of the benefits of that pet and it's available through a feat.
You are aware that Familiars can't attack. Ever. Right?

Yes.  I still think the beastmaster pet sucks because it takes some of the character's actions to control the pet.
Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2015, 04:07:00 PM »
Yeah but the Ranger basiccly trades away one attack (he has two) so his pet Panther can attack three times.

And without a special sword, the Panther deals more per hit than him anyway.

Offline bhu

  • Uncle Kittie
  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 16304
  • Fnord bitches
    • View Profile
Re: Have they simplified too much?
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2015, 04:38:15 PM »
The critters natural attacks dont get modified to be magic though, so at higher levels they dont do much.