Author Topic: Maybe a totally crazy idea - Only casters are Bards and Adepts.  (Read 3853 times)

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Maybe a totally crazy idea - Only casters are Bards and Adepts.
« on: February 21, 2015, 01:52:43 PM »
So a recent read of an old blog article about calibrating your expectations, and how 6th level D&D characters are the equivalent of the pinnacle of human ability (Olympic athletes, etc), got me to thinking on things a bit.

First, I know of E6 and E8.  I don't know a lot of the nitty-gritty, but I understand the basic concept.  That's certainly a valid approach to dealing with the insanity that is high-level D&D.  My idea is not that.

Having run a Gestalt game from 1st to 20th level, I have experienced the crazy that constitutes high-teens D&D.  Trying to run such a game got so monotonous and pointless, that I suspended the campaign once they reached 20th level, rather than continue on into Epic as I had originally intended.  I'm sure we'll go back and play epic with those characters someday, but I needed a break.  We're playing an Eberron campaign in the mean time.

Anyway, back to the point of this whole post.  The thought occurred to me, "what if the only casters were Bards, Adepts, and classes like that?"  This would include Magewright from the ECS, Duskblades, PrC's that get their own casting progression up to 5th level spells (so no Ur-Priest, Blighter, Apostle of Peace, Nar Demonbinder, Artificer, etc.)

This idea takes two forms.  The first is basically as I described above; only Bards, Adepts, Duskblades, Rangers, Paladins, Hexblades, Warlocks (maybe), and PrC's such as Assassin would exist.  In this format, the Extra Spell feat would use the interpretation that any spell could be chosen and added to your list, so your Adept could learn Lesser Planar Ally, etc.  Also, classes like Fiend-Blooded, Lyric Thaumaturge, and Unseen Seer could still be used to gain spell knowledge outside a class's normal list.

Monsters that gain full casting, such as dragons, would have their CR's adjusted upward (how much would be appropriate, I'm not sure).

The second form of this idea is to allow Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, Beguiler, etc, but alter their spell progression to be in line with Adepts (2nd level spells at 4th level, 3rd at 8th, 4th at 12th, and 5th at 16th).  Basically, just take the normal spell progression, but shove the column for each spell level down until it starts at the above-listed levels.

In this form, monster casters would have their casting altered as well.

One effect these alterations would have, is greater reliance on seeking out assistance from powerful beings, be that Angels, Archons, Demons, Devils, Genies, etc.  I think it would also calibrate the game into the power levels many DM's expect the levels to break into (rightly or wrongly, many DM's get frustrated when they are running a game at 12th level, but are only expecting magical effects on the power level of a 6th level party).  It would also create a slightly-humourous juxtaposition in that Bards would be the "most powerful casting class," as they would be the only ones to get 6th level spells.

These changes would increase the deadliness and "fear factor" of wights and vampires, as Restoration spells aren't available until 12th level.  It would encourage players to dabble in PrC's that routinely get completely ignored, because they grant their own casting, rather than advancing that of a base class.

One last option that would end up with a similar result, is requiring all full casters (including dread necromancers, etc) to multiclass every other level.  So at most they could have 5 Wizard levels at 10th level, and 10 wizard levels (or their equivalent) at 20th level.  This seems a slightly more clumsy way of doing it, but it would end up with a similar result.

This type of campaign would pretty much have to be a series of home-designed adventures.  Published modules would likely have to be heavily altered in some way to account for the changes, and limitations of the party.

Is this idea completely crazy?  Does a campaign like this sound fun?  What other effects would this have on the game?

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Maybe a totally crazy idea - Only casters are Bards and Adepts.
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2015, 01:59:36 PM »
A downside is probably in taking a wrecking ball to the whole idea of arcane casting, since you've mostly left bards (and there's rather dubious merits for the Jack-of-All-Trades class to be the best caster on top of the horrific damage boosts it can give without touching a spell).

Warlocks should pretty much be fine with their limited number of invocations.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Maybe a totally crazy idea - Only casters are Bards and Adepts.
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2015, 02:51:32 PM »
Nitty & gritty of E6 is people popping in here bitching and whined for the filthiest tricks illegally possible so they could have 9th level Spells on their triple gestated character. In other words, they & their DMs pulled their pants down and took a shit on the concepts of E6 (which were not all that good to begin with either). Just an fyi for you.



Personally, I feel it's a giant waste of time. Capping things "by Spell level" is possibly one of the worst approaches you could have.

A. It doesn't affect alternative "casters".
Like RD said the Warlock is pretty much unchanged, This goes for Dragonfire Adapts, Incarnums, Shadowcasters, Truenamers, Martial Adapts, and every single PrC written that gives pseudo-abilities to make up for losing 9th level Spells. Fact is your blanket ban is more like a rotted net that doesn't catch what you hope it will.
B. There are game breaking Spells on every level.
Contact Other Plane, Planar Binding, Teleportation, Geas/Dominate/Animate Dead, Polymorph, Contingency, Freedom of Movement, Protection from X, Locate X, and so on are still on the table so what have you really accomplish? However, anti- measures like Dimensional Anchor for teleport, Antimagic Field for caster beating, Forbiddance to counter undead apocalypses are gone so guess what is even more effective than before.
C. You haven't fixed anything.
Diplomacy still handles Encounters, Lucid Dreaming still lets you assassinate people, Sleight of Hand can still pocket Gnomes, Craft still produces infinite money, you have not fixed Skills. Monks are still impossible to see, Fighters still deal thousands of damage on a charge, Factotums still have multiple turns, Druid still eat people, Metamagic is still binary, casters still have an edge. You have not fixed Class Features. Should I go on to discuss Feats? Items? Races? Templates?
D. This is not an original idea.
Capping level of play isn't new. Hell, capping spell level isn't new; WotC did this back in 2000. Yes, fifteen freaking years ago when WotC moved the direction of D&D from infinite levels to 20 and had people update the lore to 10th level Spells are banned. Thing is, they also wrote an entire rulebase called 3rd Edition when they did it. So way to steal a previous idea and then follow up with even less effort than the ones you're complaining about did.
E. You have no idea what you are doing and thus no idea what you did.
Restoration at the 12th level? It's a 3rd level Spell on that very Healer's List you mentioned and you can buy temp immunity items at the 4th level or lower. And this ban is supposed to increase the fear factor of a Wight? A 1st level Cleric can blindly Destroy a Wight, 3rd even had a fetish for handing out non-undead Energy Drain abilities like candy so literately a dozen different splatbooks are more terrifying than what you hope to make a monster to be with your method.

If you want an easy answer to balancing your game here it is.
Gentleman's Agreement not to break things so participates cannot have fun.
And that's all you need.

And if you want a complicated one, then here are no less than eight links that go the extra mile.
* Our homebrew section: Houserules
* Kenzerco's D&D on hard mode: Hackmaster
* Pazio's inbred clone: Pathfinder
* Green Ronin's acceptance for inner peace: Mutants & Masterminds
* Steve Jackson's everyone forgets about me: GURPS
* WotC's 'middle child no one likes' fix: D&D 4th
* WotC's 'cute kid comes up short but is loved anyway' fix: D&D 5th
* Cumberland's it's balanced & rules are for noobs: Risus
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 05:22:09 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline altpersona

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Re: Maybe a totally crazy idea - Only casters are Bards and Adepts.
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2015, 05:40:25 PM »
i dont think of 'fixing things' like that as a balance fix but an experience fix.


looking at the Tier list, most of the 'what about' classes seem to be T 4 and 5 with the martial adepts being the big exception.

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Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Maybe a totally crazy idea - Only casters are Bards and Adepts.
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2015, 04:01:15 AM »
I've been considering this too, though I'm over 1 year into a campaign that's less than 1/3 complete, so I probably won't be able to act on said thoughts for a long time.  A game where the best casters are Bard and Adept.  These were my thoughts on how to do it.  Hadn't gotten to nerfing Psychic Warrior's progression yet, but it'd be similar to Bard's nerfs.  The idea would be a more martial-oriented campaign where it's much easier to heal and recover from stuff than normal D&D, reducing the need of a caster.  (Healing from guarding idea was from Legend of Dragoon, where you had almost no magic and hard cap of 32 items total, both healing and offensive / utility).

I hate generalized "no tier 1 or 2" crap, there's a bunch of strong casters in tier 3 (including beguiler, who doesn't even belong there).

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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Maybe a totally crazy idea - Only casters are Bards and Adepts.
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2015, 10:13:19 AM »
Quote from: StreamOfTheSky link=topic=15398.msg272503#msg272503date=1424595675
Healing from guarding idea was from Legend of Dragoon, where you had almost no magic and hard cap of 32 items total, both healing and offensive / utility
Just interjecting; amazing game.

Offline Captnq

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Re: Maybe a totally crazy idea - Only casters are Bards and Adepts.
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2015, 04:46:56 PM »
Honestly, what you need to do is talk to your players. Ask them the following:

Which do you enjoy more:
A) The rapid ascent to power so that we reach a level where I am no longer comfortable running and feel the need to end the campaign, retire your characters, and start over sooner.

B) Slogging through a torturous campaign where you have the scrape and claw your way through every encounter, knowing that it'll be harsh, but also knowing you EARNED every xp and gp. Nothing you ever value was gotten easily, so you know you will have accomplished something if you do it the hard way.

That will answer if your campaign will work.

You see, I tried something like your idea once. Not quite as harsh. I simply made a campaign setting where there were only spontaneous casters. I figured it'd make it simpler and there'd be less paperwork for the spellcasters. It would be a rather subtle nerf while still allowing you to make any combos you wanted, just not ALL the combos.

It was beautiful. It was sublime. It was the very picture of perfection...
only matched by it's complete and utter failure.

The players HATED it. They quit the first session. Months of work, down the tube. I recycled parts of it later, but it was a valuable lesson.

Makes sure your idea of FUN is also your player's idea of FUN before you invest time into a campaign idea.
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Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Maybe a totally crazy idea - Only casters are Bards and Adepts.
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2015, 05:37:56 PM »
Makes sure your idea of FUN is also your player's idea of FUN before you invest time into a campaign idea.
This is good advice.   :)

This thread was just the beginning kernel of an idea.  Nothing wasted but some daydream time, and the time it took me to type out the post.  ;)

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Maybe a totally crazy idea - Only casters are Bards and Adepts.
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2015, 05:26:33 PM »
If the Spell Level of a spell, was a truly accurate representation of "P"-ower level ... then yeah whether it happens sooner or normal or later; isn't a big deal.  Pally, Adept, Bard, Tweener, Tier 1, +1 Magic Rating Universe, +4 Magic Rating Universe, whatever.

However the non-casters, quarter casters, and other near-Half casters ... they've got to be on some sort of reasonable "P"-ower schedule too.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Maybe a totally crazy idea - Only casters are Bards and Adepts.
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2015, 07:08:03 PM »
I think it could probably do what you want decently well if your PCs aren't digging around for loopholes. If you have epic level NPCs, there could still be powerful magic items and spells in the world as well. It would be interesting to see it played out. I think you should likely do something to compensate the casting classes for their losses, like up the BAB of the sorcerer and wizard. The cleric... I don't know what to do with it. And the druid would get nothing, because screw him. :P
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