Trying to build a Monster Slayer build.

[Fredgerd]

I have a player who is playing a Barbarian. He's kinda new to the game and Barb is working out well for the moment since they're easy, however I'm planning to run this for a while, and I want to help him make a pretty well optimized build for later on so he can keep up with the casters in the party at later levels (we have a Cleric and a Sha'ir). He wants to do a sort of monster hunter flavor and is planning on taking the Leviathan Hunter PrC (from Stormwrack). Current build plan is Barb 3/Ranger 2/Leviathan Hunter 5. I'm not sure what to recommend for the next 10 levels though. I'm pretty sure I don't want to allow Frenzied Berzerker. I've looked at a few other classes that focus on "big game" but most of them seem way to specialized to be viable (only giants, only dragons, etc, etc).

Any suggestions?

[Risada]

What do you think of Berserk? Gives him another rage and a few other nice things.

Any number of Fighter levels could help as well.

Occult Slayer could be worth if he plans on hunting big magic critters.


See if he gets a Truebane weapon. This will help him against any creature, as long he hits at least once.

[Keldar]

I like Chameleons for monster hunters, lets you tailor your abilities to suit that day's foes.  Though the Able Learner requirement does make it less than useful of a suggestion for an already in play character.

You might want to add casting of some sort to keep up with the casters.  Presuming the character has the mental ability scores for it.  War Mind is good, presuming you can swing the Knowledge (Psionics) 8 ranks.

Otherwise, something Tome of Battle is probably good.  Even just Warblade10 can make a huge difference for a mundane character.  But some grognards take poorly to that book.

That is one abysmal Will save the proposed character has.  Probably need to shore that up massively.

What does the character that is in play now have for a build and what material is being allowed?  That makes a huge difference in what suggestions to provide.

[Unbeliever]

This departs from the Barbarian into the semi-adjacent Ranger approach, but my favorite monster hunter-esque character, and who eschews spellcasting, is the "Stalker of Evil" build that gets FE: Evil and tons of bonuses cuing off of that.

I also like the Occult Slayer plus the Mageslayer line of feats along with Supernatural Opportunist.  That gives him an edge against stuff like dragons and beholders. 

[Fredgerd]

What does the character that is in play now have for a build and what material is being allowed?  That makes a huge difference in what suggestions to provide.

I'm allowing most things from core and forgotten realms. The things I've banned almost exclusively pertain to casters (excluding frenzied berzerker). My general feeling is that non-9th level T1 casters don't need much in the way of restriction, beyond avoiding clear abuse of rule intent. I've banned alot of the Realms caster PrCs of course.

His current build is
Human (Illuskan) Barbarian 2
 Alignment: Chaotic Neutral (starting to lean toward Chaotic Evil tendencies, very unlikely this character will become "Good." I do permit evil characters if that opens any good PrC options up).
 Abilities (we used point buy if your wondering about the very even stats)
 Deity: Currently Tempus, might switch to Malar.
    Str: 16
    Dex: 14
    Con: 12
    Int: 10
    Wis: 10
    Cha: 10
 Feats
     - Exotic Weapon (Harpoon)
     - Power Attack
Skill ranks in Climb, Jump, Survival and Tumble
Combat Gear includes a greatsword, a harpoon and a breastplate. He also wants to pick up a composite bow once they hit town again. I think those weapons will be his final build (enchanted versions of course).

In terms of build I'm guessing he wont want to do a caster, as he is thus far resistant to spending much time with his nose in the rulebook and prefers having rules spoonfed to him. That may change as he gets more experienced in which case I can see Divine Crusader being a good option, but I think its safer to assume he wont based on my experience playing other games for him. So I'm not actively considering a caster PrC or any Tome of Battle stuff really unless I see some change indicating he's ready to actually read enough to keep track of a spell list.

I think he's open to either melee or ranged. Going a more ranger PrC direction should be fine and possibly even better.

Sorry for not including all that from the get go. 

[Keldar]

Bear Warrior?  Be big, eat things.  Easy entry, low thought needed.
Frostrager?  Needs Improved Unarmed Strike, Frozen Berserker, but keeps up the raging.

Pity all FR's barbarian stuff is Rashemen only, they utterly neglected the Nordic Illuskans. 

[Jackinthegreen]

Why the harpoon of all things?  Has the player actually been using it to good effect by lodging it into stuff and controlling them?

Leviathan Hunter is a bit limited when it comes to what can be attacked.  If aberrations, animals, dragons, and magical beasts are the majority of the encounters then it could be alright but there are better options regarding damage and killing stuff.  The AC and save bonus only works against specific creatures (ie, red dragons like the example gives) and not creature types so it's a little too situational.

Are there any alternate class features you might be interested in?  Take a look at this thread for everything that isn't in Dragon Mag.  If Dragon Mag is allowed then this thread has the ACFs listed by class.

Ranged builds require more effort to get decent damage than many melee builds do mostly due to melee having a lot of charge synergies like Shock Trooper and Lion Spirit Totem barbarian.

If the player still wants the character to use the harpoon then the Brutal Throw feat might be helpful since it's a thrown weapon after all.

If ToB is allowed and the character wants to stick to ranged then this thread has a list of all the maneuvers that work with a ranged weapon.  ToB maneuvers tend to be easily dealt with using maneuver cards.

[Fredgerd]

Given I'm DMing, technically anything I want to allow is allowed. I generally like dragon magazine stuff.

I haven't seen him put the harpoon to any great use yet, but he hasn't really had the occasion either. Most of the stuff so far has been easy to clear with the greatsword, since he oneshots most things he hits. I suspect it will come in handy as an anti-air/kiting thing however. I don't think he's wanting to use it as a primary weapon as much as to use it as a hook to force enemies into melee. Brutal throw could be worthwhile none the less though to get more milage out of the first feat.

Solitary hunting seems useful if he doesn't take more than two ranger levels, since he wouldn't get animal companion anyway.

I realise Lev Hunter isn't an amazing PrC but it was the best PrC for the big game hunter approach he wanted. It is probably a third of the things the party will face and half of the serious threat enemies, so by far better than other PrCs that specialize in just one type. I suppose the ideal thing would be to try and find a PrC that fills in the weaknesses in the build. Finding a way to get good bonuses against outsiders, undead and humanoids would most likely be smart. I'm definitely considering recommending the occult slayer mentioned previously too him. I'm thinking maybe Barbarian 3, Ranger 2, Leviathan Hunter 5, Occult Slayer 5, Dread Commando 5? Gives him a whole party initiative buff and a number of good well rounded abilities.

[muktidata]

I don't see much benefit to Barbarian 3, but if he does Ranger 3 instead, he will get Endurance as a bonus feat which can be used toward Indomitable Soul (along with a trip to the Otyugh Hole) or Steadfast Determination.

Also, what are the stats on the harpoon? I can't imagine a reason his character wouldn't want to retrain the feat if it's just a glorified spear.

It's no better, optimization-wise, but maybe this is an occasion for...

..TTTTTRRRRROOOOPHY COLLECTOR!!!!

[Fredgerd]

Harpoon: 1d10 Damage, 30ft range, if it hits then the target hit has to make a reflex save (10+damage dealt) or the harpoon becomes lodged in them. Once harpooned, the target moves at half speed, and can't charge or run (as written, this ignores size). If you win an opposed str check, the enemy can't move more than 30 ft from you. Harpooned spellcasters have to succeed a DC 15 Concentration check or lose spells. A harpooned creature can remove the harpoon with two hands as a full round action, but takes damage equal to the damage dealt on the original attack (including bonus damage) unless they can make a DC 15 Heal check.

I'd say its worth a feat, though probably better if he can build a bit more around it to get the most use possible.

I did look at trophy collector. I don't know if I want to encourage him to waste a feat for flavor he already gets from the Leviathan hunter.

I agree with your assessment of ranger 3 > barbarian 3. I'll recommend that to him.

[muktidata]

So you lose your weapon to make your opponent move at half-speed. The concentration check is really low. He'll never win an opposed strength check. So that's the only ability I'd rely on working.

I think Bloodstorm Blade is his best bet, but he won't have any of the pre-reqs without taking two feats or dipping Warblade. Dipping  Warblade is pretty nice since you get Weapon Aptitude which can do a lot and taking Warblade late kind of still scales at half-pace with your maneuver/stance selection. There's a stance that grants Scent which seems to fit the character (especially tracking by scent). At this point we're talking about a dedicated Thrower. So then I'd just look up throwing builds. Master Thrower, Bloodstorm Blade builds.

[Fredgerd]

Again I'm avoiding caster options (ToB included) for now unless he shows signs of being more interested in reading rulebooks. I can't be reading all the rule text for spells/powers/manuevers to him mid combat and waiting for him to decide if he's gonna use it or want to read text for another spell.

I think he has a solid chance at opposed strength against enemies close to his own size. Almost nothing runs heal. I think both of those are safe to consider applicable. I agree 15 concentration is negligible 95% of the time (any save or fail is at least worth 5% though). Last, I believe there's some enchantment that allows weapons to be called back on command for a +1 enhancement (similar to returning but not automatic). That could be used to ensure damage once the first harpoon is in. Get 4 or 5 harpoons in and then call them back at once and you get some solid burst damage. Enchantment might have just been shields though, can't remember. Last time I looked at it I was working on a shield throwing build.

[muktidata]

Again I'm avoiding caster options (ToB included) for now unless he shows signs of being more interested in reading rulebooks. I can't be reading all the rule text for spells/powers/manuevers to him mid combat and waiting for him to decide if he's gonna use it or want to read text for another spell.

I think he has a solid chance at opposed strength against enemies close to his own size. Almost nothing runs heal. I think both of those are safe to consider applicable. I agree 15 concentration is negligible 95% of the time (any save or fail is at least worth 5% though). Last, I believe there's some enchantment that allows weapons to be called back on command for a +1 enhancement (similar to returning but not automatic). That could be used to ensure damage once the first harpoon is in. Get 4 or 5 harpoons in and then call them back at once and you get some solid burst damage. Enchantment might have just been shields though, can't remember. Last time I looked at it I was working on a shield throwing build.

He won't win strength checks against "monsters". Called in an armor enchantment. I think he'd be best off as an archer that happens to have Power Attack if BSB is off the table. Archery is actually quite nice as long as you can adjust to your strength with the bow (3.4kg item in MIC lets you do that). With a simple Haste spell, Whirling Frenzy, and Rapid shot from Ranger 2, he'll fire off 5 arrows a turn at decent damage and to-hit rate. Woodland Archer would be a good feat at level 6. If something closes in, he can always pull out his greatsword and get messy with Power Attack.

[Fredgerd]

Archery is something he's enthusiastic about IRL so I think he might be excited for that type of build. I'll definitely pass that idea along. Haven't done many archery builds before but I know there are a number of interesting PrCs, albeit several of them having racial restrictions.

[muktidata]

PrC's don't really help archery at all. There's some stuff you can do, but none of them are really the bread and butter. For a non-Scout mundane, it's just about high strength, full BAB, Rapid Shot, Woodland Archer, a few minor buffs from your casters (like Haste), and a good bow. If you're looking for juicy PrC's, honestly there isn't much. I'd consider Kensai. You can make the WTF bow of doom using Bow of the Wintermoon or Hank's Bow as the base, add a nice +8 untyped bonus to Strength several times a day (Item Familiar so that your bow helps you make subsequent concentration checks). Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium) is an excellent way to increase damage - note that the pre-req is errata'ed to be +1 BAB instead of +14.

[phaedrusxy]

PrC's don't really help archery at all

Unless you can use that 3.0 PrC that got the archery equivalent of Power Attack (Peerless Archer, IIRC).

[Keldar]

Order of the Bow Initiate 2 and potentially Exotic Weapon Master 1 can remove the AoO for firing a bow, but other than that only Peerless Archer from Silver Marches is worth while for an archer.  Mostly for Power Shot, as phaedrusxy mentioned, but the ability to threaten at reach is entertaining too.

Justice of Weal and Woe (Champions of Ruin) can make a good Archer, I've heard.  But that requires the 14 Wis to take advantage of its casting.  Which has some archery themed spells, many of which are swift action casting.  And it counts as Fighter levels for feat prerequisites.

[muktidata]

If we're doing 3.0 stuff, Deepwood Sniper is excellent.

[Keldar]

3.0 Order of the Bow Initiate isn't ass either.  3.5 OotBI is turrible.

[Fredgerd]

I generally allow most 3.0 stuff without a direct equivalent as a standard policy. Otherwise, I generally default to the 3.5 but sometimes consider things case by case. I'm pretty cautious about any 9th lv caster class but everything else tends to just even the playing field in my experience (a few exceptions of course).

So Deepwood Sniper is fine. We're playing Realms so Peerless Archer is also fine. I'd have to cross compare OotBI from Complete Warrior and (is it Masters of the Wild)?