looking for monk optimization

[Blightersbane]

human, 6 ft, 200 lbs, quarter staff, 12 shuriken, nunchucks, robe, sandals and 30 gps...kinda sucks, not VoP but dang close!
14 str, con dex & wis
11 int
DM gave 15 pts and 2 more to any 1 stat (the PF human)
I focused on monk training according to DM, I am not knowing of foreign cultures nor much history, customs nor protocol.  I received 1 bonus monk feat of my choice and weapon focus with my unarmed strikes and 4 bonus skill pts. I dont know much about nothin that ain't trained at ye ole monkastery

OK so what feats would you go with, I want to be good at being a unarmed striker/grappler. Style & feat suggestions? Over all Monk advice? New to PF, we are 1st level.

[linklord231]

Important question: Pathfinder only, or is 3.5 stuff allowed?

[altpersona]

i'll volunteer to be the ass that says 'start by not being a monk'   

will post some serious suggestions when i find em


edit:

Pathfinder Handbooks
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1932.0

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/treantmonk-s-guide-to-monks

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7b8EGfd1Lu3MTNiMjIyMjUtOWVkYS00ODEyLTkwMTAtMTI3Yjk1MTFkNDFk/view

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2858.0

http://kcmorris.hubpages.com/hub/A-Guide-to-the-Qinggong-Monk-Pathfinder

[Blightersbane]

pathfinder only but for special DM allowances

[SorO_Lost]

I'm not to sure on PF, but in D&D the Monk is quite powerful with the proper ACF considerations.

And the realization that Grapple sucks. The rules are encumbered and unfortunately for you virtually everything you fight will be larger and Strength is handed out like candy to non-PCs so all the Feats you can find to help you are not helping you become better, but helping to fall behind more slowly.

[Captnq]

Sorry. Can't help much unless he allows 3.5 stuff. It's my specialty.

But, if he does allow you to use 3.5 go to the EVD.

Get the Weapon Section, read up on WSAs, Necklace of natural weaponry, Gauntlet handbook, and  Extrapolated WSAs.

Get a Necklace. Get Ancestral Relic feat. Make a customized NoNW to your specific needs.

Then pick up the Augment section of the EVD. Chop off your arms and get warforged construct arms for the slam attack. Get Beast Claws feat to add your slam damage to your natural attacks. Used NoNW to add damage to your Unarmed Strike AND your slam attack so the damage of both are doubled.

I would like to point out very little of this depends on your build.

Check Back in about a week or two when I put out the Improved Unarmed Strike feat Handbook, to be followed up with the natural attack feat handbook.

Ones to look at:
ACHERON FLURRY [IUS]
- PLANAR HANDBOOK (3.5)
BEAST STRIKE [FIGHTER] [IUS]
- DRAGON #355 (3.5)
CHOKE HOLD [IUS]
- ORIENTAL ADVENTURES (3.0)
CIRCLE KICK [IUS]
- SWORD AND FIST (3.0)
DEFENSIVE METERED FOOT [IUS]
- DRAGON #337 (3.5)
DEFENSIVE THROW [IUS]
- COMPLETE WARRIOR (3.5)
- ORIENTAL ADVENTURES (3.0)
FLYING KICK [IUS]
- COMPLETE WARRIOR (3.5)
- ORIENTAL ADVENTURES (3.0)
OFFENSIVE METERED FOOT [IUS]
- DRAGON #337 (3.5)
RING THE GOLDEN BELL [IUS]
- DRAGON #319 (3.5)
ROUNDABOUT KICK [IUS]
- COMPLETE WARRIOR (3.5)
- ORIENTAL ADVENTURES (3.0)
SNAP KICK [IUS]
- TOME OF BATTLE (3.5)
STONEWALKER FIST [FIGHTER] [IUS] (technically in 3.5 its a regional feat)
- RACES OF FAERUN (3.0)
SUPERIOR UNARMED STRIKE [IUS]
- TOME OF BATTLE (3.5)

And if you wish to go the strength draining route:
WEAKENING TOUCH [FIGHTER] [IUS]
- COMPLETE WARRIOR (3.5)
MIGHTY WORKS MASTERY I [IUS]
- ORIENTAL ADVENTURES (3.0)
MIGHTY WORKS MASTERY II [IUS]
- ORIENTAL ADVENTURES (3.0)

Technically, it is possible to inflict a -6 str penalty, then 1d4 strength damage on every unarmaed strike WITH NO SAVE. Check with your DM, however, RAW and RAI are clearly in conflict.

[skydragonknight]

Not really an expert on PF either, but my Google skills are up for the task.

Like 3.5, PF Monk is generally best as a multi-class character.

Monk / Druid is a nice option (Heavily favoring Druid). Take the Monastic Legacy feat to count half your druid levels as monk levels for unarmed progression. Take Improved Natural Attack as well if your GM lets you take [Monster] feats. It'll be a bit sluggish until you hit Wild Shape, but the strength bonuses from the animal forms will help your accuracy a lot while the size increases to natural weapons will help your damage.

If you want more levels in Monk / to play a more martial arts character and less Hairy Scary Critter, I'd recommend Monk/Rogue or Monk/Ninja. I can see Monk being useful here as far as 10 (but you can drop out earlier if you want) for prereq-less Medusa's Wrath. Use Stunning Fist to set up Sneak Attack and Medusa's Wrath.

There's probably several other nice combinations, but I lack the familiarity. Do check out the class variants though, especially if you stay single-classed. One may be more suited to your needs than generic monk.

[phaedrusxy]

The maneuver master monk makes a great dip, since you can pick up some great feats without needing the prereqs.

[Blightersbane]

I'm not to sure on PF, but in D&D the Monk is quite powerful with the proper ACF considerations.

And the realization that Grapple sucks. The rules are encumbered and unfortunately for you virtually everything you fight will be larger and Strength is handed out like candy to non-PCs so all the Feats you can find to help you are not helping you become better, but helping to fall behind more slowly.

Monk and powerful in same sentence? Hey Soro let me have a hit off that chit, its strong. Ive never heard one person ever say that Monk was or is a powerful class. Most conversations attempt to get the monk up to the same tier as a fighter, and thats about what, tier 5?

Ide like to make a strong monk build using monk only and a unarmed specialist. We will be more city and travel based very few if any dungeons

[linklord231]

The trick with 3.5 Monk is to take exactly 7 levels.  Why 7?  Because Monk 7 is when you get the Shadow Blend ability, which makes you basically permanently super-invisible.  Pair that with the Darkstalker feat, and you basically can't ever be hit by anyone.  Monk 7 is also the prereq for Mantis Leap, which lets you make a Charge attack as part of a Jump check, which opens up all kinds of possibilities.
After that, you have a couple directions you can take.  Some of my favorites are Rogue/Ninja of the Crescent Moon, Assassin (if using Carmendine Monk), or Umbral Disciple.  Suel Arcanamach also has some merit, but you might want to use Ascetic Mage in order to reduce MAD.   

[Blightersbane]

The trick with 3.5 Monk is to take exactly 7 levels.  Why 7?  Because Monk 7 is when you get the Shadow Blend ability, which makes you basically permanently super-invisible.  Pair that with the Darkstalker feat, and you basically can't ever be hit by anyone.  Monk 7 is also the prereq for Mantis Leap, which lets you make a Charge attack as part of a Jump check, which opens up all kinds of possibilities.
After that, you have a couple directions you can take.  Some of my favorites are Rogue/Ninja of the Crescent Moon, Assassin (if using Carmendine Monk), or Umbral Disciple.  Suel Arcanamach also has some merit, but you might want to use Ascetic Mage in order to reduce MAD.   

question, how would a monk just get shadow blend?

[Blightersbane]

yah this is a PF monk not 3.5 were not allowed 3.5 stuffs
Im looking at Qinggong Monk & Hungry ghost vs going straight plane Jane monk. Do they cost a feat to get, or I just "get them" becasue I selected them?

[Captnq]

No idea. Not big on PF. Maybe get a million natural attacks?
Tentacles.
Monks can never have too many tentacles.

[Keldar]

I understand that Pathfinder Monks can't flurry with natural attacks.  Because Piazzo hates Monks. (And a whole host of other underpowered things.)  So going that route it would be best to trade away Flurry if possible.  Which is basically TWF in Pathfinder anywho.

From what I've read, Qinggong Monk is probably the best option, because it contains many options within it.  Read the above linked guide.

[linklord231]

question, how would a monk just get shadow blend?

From the Dark Moon Disciple ACF, found in the Champions of Valor Web Expansion.  Best paired with the Invisible Fist ACF from Exemplars of Evil, which lets you turn invisible for 1 round as an immediate action, usable once every 3 rounds. 

[skydragonknight]

question, how would a monk just get shadow blend?

From the Dark Moon Disciple ACF, found in the Champions of Valor Web Expansion.  Best paired with the Invisible Fist ACF from Exemplars of Evil, which lets you turn invisible for 1 round as an immediate action, usable once every 3 rounds.

He's stated about 5 times that he can't use 3.5 material. >_>

[linklord231]

I'm aware, that's why I limited my replies to answering his specific questions, first regarding why someone would call the 3.5 monk "powerful", and then answering where a monk would get Shadow Blend from.
But I won't derail his thread any more after this, unless he asks another question specifically about the 3.5 monk.

[Unbeliever]

Tetori archetype is, I'm told, able to make a solid grappler.  Grappling is, of course, suboptimal, but I think even just straight Monk might do you till 9th+ level.

I also like the Hungry Ghost (if you're going to have Ki powers, you might as well get to use them all the time, though there are other ways to achieve that end) and the Master of Many Styles archetypes.  The MoMS is quite optimizable, but it does involve going down a rabbit hole to find just the right combos.  So, it's pretty effort-laden.

Really, check the handbooks and google around.  For most games, a pretty solid optimization that you can find in there will probably be good enough.

[SorO_Lost]

If I'm reading Qinggong right, Pazio is confirming you can combine archtypes.

Like Hungry Ghost replaces Stunning Fist, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body and Diamond Soul. So a Qinggong Hungry Ghost can select Ki Powers at the 4th, 5th, 12th, 15th, 17th (twice), 19th and 20th level and still use HG's Steal Ki to keep his points up. It could be an interesting combination.

[Captnq]

I understand that Pathfinder Monks can't flurry with natural attacks.

I am curious as to what sort of backwards thinking is the reason for this. Flurry of Blows is a Class feature that is triggered when you perform the full-attack action. Natural attacks trigger when you perform a Full-Attack action. Why would FoB not work with NatAttacks?

Not trying to derail, It just seems to be some sort of fundamental rules difference that I can't quite comprehend.