Familiar Item

[Pippin]

Regarding the OP:

Familiar Items are so good because if you lose/break it, the punishment is irrevocable. You can't retrieve your skill ranks, nor your spell slots. They're lost for ever, and your character is pretty ruined (You could retrieve your XP though, with a Thought Bottle, if you stored your experience at the right time...  )

So unless you somehow manage to make your item unbreakable, that's a risky play IMHO.

Side note: I just read the relevant pages of Unearthed Arcana, and it's funny because I think I remember that it is possible to gain spells through your Item Familiar. I remember something about being able to cast Wish three times in its lifespan, among a huge list of other possibilities, but that's not mentioned in UA. Someone remember that too?

Never mind, those are actually Legacy Items.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

If you're not up to the challenge, just say so. I do like the incorrectly applied buzzwords, though. Since you think it should be nerfed you're more than welcome to post the most "broken" use of the feat in an otherwise not broken build.

Then we can have fun listing all the things that are far more powerful but still used. If you're intellectually honest, you'll list an analogous nerf for each item. Fair is fair.

@pippin, people could say that of wizard spellbooks. Where was that nice discussion on getting the scribing cost (time, gp, anonymity) to something neglible? I thought it got things much more competitive than having a bbb destroyed for 12k a pop...

[linklord231]

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that I think Item Familiar is too good to be allowed, ever. And yet, I'm sure by now you've noticed that I've never actually made that claim. Insisting that I have is the literal definition of strawmanning.

Demanding "proof" that I hold an opinion that I don't actually hold regarding Incantatrix in an attempt to change the subject away from Item Familiar is a textbook example of a red herring. Even if I did believe that both are too broken to be allowed, Incantatrix has no relevance to the discussion.

You can only call "Put up or shut up" when a person has actually made a claim. The only claim I've made in this thread is that a rule saying "the DM can take this away" is not a legitimate balancing factor. This is an objective truth, regardless of whether we're talking about Item Familiars, spell books, or Paladin abilities.

[faeryn]

The only claim I've made in this thread is that a rule saying "the DM can take this away" is not a legitimate balancing factor. This is an objective truth, regardless of whether we're talking about Item Familiars, spell books, or Paladin abilities.

It may not be a balancing factor in your book... but clearly it was to the writers... quite a few things are balanced around the concept of risk vs reward... though admittedly there are far more things balanced around other factors...

an Item familiar is for all intents a high risk & high reward item. You risk 4 skill ranks per +1 bonus. You risk a sizable chunk of XP for 10% bonus XP (all of the bonus XP +200 per level)... You risk your highest level spell slots for a single bonus spell slot 2 levels lower and spell use for the item familiar...

[linklord231]

It's bad design.  If you design something that's intended to be balanced around the possibility of it being taken away, then you've set up a situation in which one of two things will happen.  Either it will be taken away, or it will not be.  If it is taken away, then you've created a trap option and the character would be better off never having taken the option in the first place.  If it is not taken away, then the character is supposedly above your average intended power level because he took an option that you specifically intended to be more powerful than other options. 

You're "balancing" something around circumstances that might never actually come up. 

[faeryn]

There are multiple ways in which an item familiar may be lost... some more devastating than others... if your item familiar is a weapon you could be disarmed... if it's a trinket it could be stolen... the item familiar IS a magic item, and it's bonuses CAN be negated via an antimagic field... a disjunction spell would destroy an item familiar... etc...

The game offers DMs many ways to remove an item familiar without being an absolute loss... all of the risk in an item familiar is temporary should the item be returned... so turning it into a mundane item via an antimagic field (which yes by the rules will work, an item familiar MUST be a magic item) is a great way for DMs to temporarily deny a player a bonus from their item familiar when they need to without destroying the item or otherwise taking the item from them.

Balancing was done in a way that there are multiple avenues in which a DM can control the balance of the game with nearly everything... there are actually far more things that weren't balanced properly Take spell saves for example... at the start of a game they are reasonable not to low and not to high... but within only a few levels they start to look far less threatening... it doesn't take to long for most to reach a point where they will almost never fail a save vs a spell... If you want to talk bad design, that's a prime example right there...

[Captnq]

Uhh... if you lose it for too long, it don't matter if it's returned or rebuilt, you lose everything.

If you ever lose the chosen item (have it removed from your possession for a continuous period of more than one day per level) or if the item is destroyed, you automatically lose 200 XP per level as well as all benefits derived from possessing the linked item (plus any resources you put into the item). If you recover the item, you regain these XP. You may replace a lost or destroyed item familiar after you have advanced one level, as if you were gaining an item familiar for the first time.

So, if you are 10th level and lose it for 11 days, you lose everything AND an extra 2000 xp, but on day 12 when you get it back, you ONLY get the 2000 xp you lost back.

I don't see anything temporary about it.

[faeryn]

Uhh... if you lose it for too long, it don't matter if it's returned or rebuilt, you lose everything.

If you ever lose the chosen item (have it removed from your possession for a continuous period of more than one day per level) or if the item is destroyed, you automatically lose 200 XP per level as well as all benefits derived from possessing the linked item (plus any resources you put into the item). If you recover the item, you regain these XP. You may replace a lost or destroyed item familiar after you have advanced one level, as if you were gaining an item familiar for the first time.

So, if you are 10th level and lose it for 11 days, you lose everything AND an extra 2000 xp, but on day 12 when you get it back, you ONLY get the 2000 xp you lost back.

I don't see anything temporary about it.

You may wish to read that again... they only mention regaining the XP because the other benefits are "Derived from possessing the linked item".

What happens when you acquire an item that grants you a bonus for possessing it? You gain the benefits of that bonus.
What happens if you lose that item then reacquire it down the road? You temporarily lose the bonuses until you possess the item again.

Now... one could argue that the invested skill points might be permanently lost, but any skill bonuses you assigned from them would be regained upon reacquiring the item familiar. Nothing changes regarding invested spell slots, you already gave up those slots permanently when you invested them and the item grants you bonus slots 2 levels lower by possessing it once they are invested, so reaquiring a lost item familiar would return the bonus spell slots as well.

The only thing that might not be temporary is the invested skill points... but that comes down to a DM ruling... by RAW you would lose the invested skill points permanently but regain EVERYTHING else upon reacquiring the item familiar, but by RAI you would probably regain those invested skill points as well... reason being... the skill bonuses cannot be higher than the ranks in the skill, if you permanently lost ranks it is entirely possible that a skill that was gaining bonuses now has fewer ranks than the bonus it was being granted... which is a violation of the item familiars rules...

[Leviathan]

I can identify two cases with distinct outcomes: (1) your item familiar is destroyed or permanently lost, and (2) your item familiar is lost but later regained, after a period greater than one day per level.

If your item familiar is destroyed or permanently lost:

When you replace it, you have a new item familiar, which is not the same as the old one. You have not invested any skill points or spell slots into the new item familiar; you invested them into the old one. There is no way to recover the skill points or spell slots you invested, and you have to start all over again with the new item familiar. Note:

You may replace a lost or destroyed item familiar after you have advanced one level, as if you were gaining an item familiar for the first time.

and observe that, when you gain an item familiar for the first time, it doesn't have anything invested in it.

If you lose your item familiar, but then find it again:

In this case, it depends on your reading of  "you automatically lose ... all benefits derived from possessing the linked item (plus any resources you put into the item)." In one interpretation, this is just reminding the reader of the consequences of losing an item which had provided a bonus -- while the item is not in your possession, it does not grant you bonuses, you cannot activate its abilities, and so on. However, if the item is restored to your possession, you regain its benefits. The argument against this interpretation is that you are only said to lose the benefits of your item familiar after it has been out of your possession for several days, which is not a typical feature of a loss of benefits of this sort. Additionally, there is no matching reminder that you regain its benefits when you regain the item.

In another interpretation, this is a special feature of item familiars: when you go several days without your item familiar, you indefinitely lose the ability to access its benefits. Of course, no provision is made for you to regain access to its benefits, so by "indefinitely" I really mean "permanently". You cannot ever recover the ability to use or benefit from your item familiar, nor can you get back the resources you invested in it, either for their usual uses or to invest them into another item familiar. However, you still have an item familiar (it just doesn't give you any benefit), so you can't get a new one. You must destroy your own item familiar, again losing 200 XP per level (and permanently this time), to give yourself the opportunity to replace it.

[Captnq]

Here is this as RAW:

If you ever lose the chosen item

We set up a condition.

(have it removed from your possession for a continuous period of more than one day per level)

We define that condition

or if the item is destroyed

We add an additional condition.

you automatically lose 200 XP per level as well as all benefits derived from possessing the linked item (plus any resources you put into the item).

Anything put into the item is now gone after 1day/level and 200 xp/level.
If you recover the item before then, everything is fine.
Your powers in the item are still accessible, but the item itself is not accessible.
To use the item, you must have it in your possession at least one round in any 1 day/level period and be holding/wearing/activating it.

If you recover the item, you regain these XP.

At any point, you recover the item, you get the lost XPs back. and only THESE Xps, not ALL xps. These XPs would be only the XPs mentioned in the feat.

You may replace a lost or destroyed item familiar after you have advanced one level, as if you were gaining an item familiar for the first time.

And that's it. It says NOTHING about getting back your investment, EVER. Period. End of statement. Paragraph is over. Thanks for playing. Have a nice day. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

You may wish to read that again... they only mention regaining the XP because the other benefits are "Derived from possessing the linked item".

No. they mension THESE xps. Not ALL XPS. Or just XPS. They say THESE XPs which must be the XPs of the data set contained within the feat.

What happens when you acquire an item that grants you a bonus for possessing it? You gain the benefits of that bonus.

No. It depends on the item and how you get it. In this case, the how and what is dependent on this feat. We go by the feat, not what you "think".

What happens if you lose that item then reacquire it down the road? You temporarily lose the bonuses until you possess the item again.

No. It does not say that anywhere.
Lose is defined in the paragraph as "Gone more then 1 day/level" That is what lost is. If your familiar item is lost in your couch for a few days, you might not know where it is, but as far as the feat is concerned it is not "LOST". Or on an island with survivors of a crashed air plane trying desperately to come up with a finale that won't piss off the fan base.

Now... one could argue that the invested skill points might be permanently lost, but any skill bonuses you assigned from them would be regained upon reacquiring the item familiar.

One could argue that water is wet. You're like a climate change denier. You assume because you argue that your claim has some form of legitimacy.

Please point to the line in the feat that states you regain your skill points, or that you regain any superset that would contain your skill points.

Nothing changes regarding invested spell slots

YES! YES IT DOES CHANGE!!!

you automatically lose 200 XP per level as well as all benefits derived from possessing the linked item

Are the invested skill points a benefit? Yes? YOU LOSE THEM. Not, temporarily unavailable! Not Trained Technicians are working on the problem! You automatically LOSE ALL BENEFITS. ALL. Every last one. What part of 'ALL' is giving you trouble? The A or the LL?"

you already gave up those slots permanently when you invested them and the item grants you bonus slots 2 levels lower by possessing it once they are invested, so reaquiring a lost item familiar would return the bonus spell slots as well.

I used to have a T-Shirt. It looked like this:

This is you. You say stuff that makes sense, then "something happens" and you assume you get your invested benefits back. You are missing step 2. Please explain Step 2 because I cannot understand why you seem to think that if you get the item back you get EVERYTHING back.

The only thing that might not be temporary is the invested skill points... but that comes down to a DM ruling... by RAW you would lose the invested skill points permanently but regain EVERYTHING else upon reacquiring the item familiar,

WHERE DOES IT SAY THIS???

[Captnq]

AH! Here. Tell me what happens.

I take someone with an item familiar.
He's 5th.
I tie him to a chair.
I place his item familiar JUST out of reach.
He knows where it is, he can see it.
I put a ring of sustenance on him.
I never let him touch the item familiar.
I occasionally hold it and poke him with it.
When I'm poking him with it, it's in my possession.

What happens on day 6 when I untie him and let him have his familiar back?

Justify your answer.

[faeryn]

CaptnQ Read that again and in it's entirety this time... the feat does not say

you automatically lose 200 XP per level as well as all benefits.

it says

you automatically lose 200 XP per level as well as all benefits derived from possessing the linked item.

CONTEXT IS IMPORTANT!

It Invested skills are NOT "derived from possessing the item". Invested skill are the cost for such bonuses. And as I so clearly stated, there is no guarantee that you get your invested skills back. You do however get the skill bonuses that are in fact "derived from possessing the item" back upon repossessing the SAME item familiar again. And to quote myself as to why you may or may not get your invested skills back:

the skill bonuses cannot be higher than the ranks in the skill, if you permanently lost ranks it is entirely possible that a skill that was gaining bonuses now has fewer ranks than the bonus it was being granted... which is a violation of the item familiars rules...

And no, nothing does change with the invested spell slots... The feat pretty well sums that one up already. Should you lose the item familiar you lose BOTH spell slots... the invested and the bonus... that clearly defines the invested spell slot as permanently lost. However, because the bonus spell slot is derived from possessing the item you do regain that upon repossessing the SAME item familiar again.

All bonuses are lost permanently only upon the item being destroyed or replaced (which requires destroying the item)

[Pippin]

Hoard Gullet is awesome for item familiars.

[Maelphaxerazz]

So is enchanting a graft and making THAT your item familiar.

[Mr. woop woop]

The item familiar feat says it gives bonus xp at the cost of life force... but then it just says it gives you 10% more xp for the cost of life force... WTF IS THE COST OF LIFE FORCE?!?!? do I just get 10% free xp for this feat. (after paying the initial fee)

If so. Take the item familiar and use the bonus xp to negate the cost of making a weapon of legacy(this will let your item give you a +6 enchant bonus to 3 scores for about 1/4 the price and a free +10 enchantment bonus to your sword)

after that say fuck it and take the mythic path ability to make it a legendary item...

you now have a "+10 legendarily familiar sharpened adamantium Great sword of legacy imbued with a greater (enter element here) crystal" that give +6 to 3 different stats, has foe biting to double your damage(ALL DAMAGE) (IT IS APLIED AT THE END OF DAMAGE CALC), and allows for pre-qualification in feats and prc's that requires skill ranks. ASLO use the special powers to grab up a CHOSEN dedicated power(THESE ARE OP STRONG, TAKE THEM)(true resurrection without needing xp cost or components once a month? wtf?)

when your dm tries to sunder it just laugh in his face as his "sunder specialist" realizes he needs a +10 weapon to even try to sunder it. Plus the hardness from it being adamantium makes it hard to break in the first place.

Oh and so it's not stolen put returning on it using some of your +10 bonus or through some other method.

*tips hat and returns to seat next to old ECL 1 half dragon (totally counts as dragon) with blinding speed(epic)*

So in reality this feat can start off a chain of getting a HUGE bonus to power for about 40k(90k if you take a dedi power) gold and a CHANCE at loosing some bonuses if your not smart enough to get rid of the negatives. you also have leftover xp to craft with... >.>

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

We're gonna need some citations on that. Mythic path ability? This isn't pathfailure.

Edit: Okay I'm out. Here's the tl;dr of the thread

(click to show/hide)

OP: This is sooooooo broken.
Others: really?
More: Yeah!
Me: It's a pearl of power / skill booster. I say it isn't broken.
LL: How dare you say that! You no nothing of what's broken!
Me: Actually, I'm one of the few on here who does. I've put the work in to prove it. Your turn.
LL: You're such a liar! You're trashy!
Me: Don't puss out bro.
LL: Don't assume I'm attacking your point because you're the one guy on here with a solid claim. Clearly I'm just attacking you personally or your claim. Take your pick.
Me: (okay, so you puss'd out). Meh not worth a post.
LL: Bad design = Broken!
Others: I can read it so you don't lose anything! It's broken.
OP: No. I can read it so that's unfounded, not to mention against the RAI. Don't be like those meanies refusing to chase Manbearpig!
Above: This 3.5 thing is broken because ... Pathfinder!

[faeryn]

...and allows for pre-qualification in feats and prc's that requires skill ranks...

WRONG! Item familiars provide a BONUS to skills, the bonus does not count as ranks in that skill, and thus do not qualify for feats and prCs. And is in fact limited by how many ranks the skill has. Were the bonus to count as ranks, then it would be theoretically possible to boost a skill without limit through an item familiar's bonus.

[Mr. woop woop]

We're gonna need some citations on that. Mythic path ability? This isn't pathfailure.

weapon of legacy is from weapon of legacy: http://www.reality.net/dnd/pdf/DnD%20-%20Weapons%20of%20Legacy%20-%20OCR.pdf
legendary is from mythic: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/mythicAdventures/mythicItems/legendaryItems.html#legendary-items

magic item rules: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm
weapon hardness rules: Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points. (he doesn't need a +10 weapon... but it would help counter the hardness. A force weapon would to the same trick. So to counter that... Make your own weapon force through some means.)

returning: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Returning

...and allows for pre-qualification in feats and prc's that requires skill ranks...

WRONG! Item familiars provide a BONUS to skills, the bonus does not count as ranks in that skill, and thus do not qualify for feats and prCs. And is in fact limited by how many ranks the skill has. Were the bonus to count as ranks, then it would be theoretically possible to boost a skill without limit through an item familiar's bonus.

But it says "This bonus can be applied to a skill in which he already has maximum ranks." which indicates to me that it applies it to the base(the only part of skills that has a "maximum ranks") which is also where the +3 trained "BONUS" is applied to... and people use that all the time to take spell perfection at level 12.

I feel like the argument can be made that it would allow you to take feats early. It becomes more risk=reward. you risk some power if the item breaks. but gain early access to some feats and such.

[faeryn]

...and allows for pre-qualification in feats and prc's that requires skill ranks...

WRONG! Item familiars provide a BONUS to skills, the bonus does not count as ranks in that skill, and thus do not qualify for feats and prCs. And is in fact limited by how many ranks the skill has. Were the bonus to count as ranks, then it would be theoretically possible to boost a skill without limit through an item familiar's bonus.

But it says "This bonus can be applied to a skill in which he already has maximum ranks." which indicates to me that it applies it to the base(the only part of skills that has a "maximum ranks") which is also where the +3 trained "BONUS" is applied to... and people use that all the time to take spell perfection at level 12.

I feel like the argument can be made that it would allow you to take feats early. It becomes more risk=reward. you risk some power if the item breaks. but gain early access to some feats and such.

Whenever a character with an item familiar gains skill points, he may choose to put some or all of those skill points into his item familiar. He assigns the skill points normally, but notes that they now reside in the item familiar. For every 3 ranks he assigns to the item familiar, he gains a +1 bonus that he can apply to any single skill. This bonus can be applied to a skill in which he already has maximum ranks. He can apply multiple bonuses to the same skill, but he may not have more points of bonus in a skill than he has ranks.

The ability clearly states that it is a bonus... it does NOT say that they are ranks nor are they treated as ranks. If they were ranks or were treated as ranks then the last part of the ability wouldn't ever even apply. If you gain a +1 Luck bonus to skills do you count that as ranks? No, it's a bonus. The item familiar simply gives you a +1 untyped bonus for every 3 ranks invested. The bonuses provide you greater proficiency with the skill at the risk of losing any invested skill ranks. The part about maximum ranks though is either unnecessary or potentially a limitation... It is quite possible that the intent was that you cannot apply a bonus to a skill that is not max rank at the time you acquired the bonus, though I know of no one who would enforce such a ruling. Regardless of the intent of that line however, the ability is quite clear that you are granted a "BONUS" not ranks. Ranks are what are important for qualifications not bonuses.


EDIT: after doing some research on your "+3 trained bonus" and the "Spell perfection" feat (a feat I had previously never heard of and for good reason) I think I may know where your difference in interpretation is coming from... considering that Spell Perfection is a Pathfinder Feat... it may be likely that PF handles the bonuses from item familiars differently than 3.0/3.5... and as someone previously attempted to point out, this discussion is revolving around Item Familiars within D&D 3.5

[Mr. woop woop]

Yeaahhh.

Sometimes I forget people still separate 3.5 from 3.75(pathfinder)