Familiar Item

[Meiliken]

Yeaahhh.

Sometimes I forget people still separate 3.5 from 3.75(pathfinder)

People on the Paizo boards get mad at me when I talk about pathfinder being 3.75, including the Mods, until I inform them that in fact pathfinder was marketed as d&d when it first came out.  In any event, I always combine them now.  If something was updated, I use the updated version.  If it wasn't updated, I use the older version, similar in vein to 3.0 to 3.5.  That's why I see no problem with using item familiar with WoL and mythic.  The ego's on Paizo are the reason I pay more attention here than there.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Heck, I recently tagged the PF SRD for a basics argument.
The BAB section specifically references the 3.5e SRD.
That's B A B.
 

[awaken_D_M_golem]

I used to have a T-Shirt. It looked like this:

HEY !!
 

I know that cartoon was originally published in "The New Yorker" magazine.
Was wondering if I would ever find it again.
Happy kitty avatar dance.

[Mr. woop woop]

until I inform them that in fact pathfinder was marketed as d&d when it first came out. 

... The cover for the pathfinder core rule book




IT SAYS 3.5 THRIVES. I don't know how everyone over looks that.

[Keldar]

They're too busy kissing the assess of the inmates running that asylum.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

{ ... thy death has been forestalled ... }


Oh wow.
That's even "worse"  ... than the back cover of CPsi.

[Kaelik]

Item Familiar is a super mega dumb hyper bad feat. It's a bad concept for a feat, it's a badly designed feat, it is more powerful than any other feat save Leadership, and it promotes bad play.

Let's look at what Item Familiar does:

1) It gives you an extra spell slot of your highest level. This isn't terrible. If that was all a feat did, it would be better than extra spell slot, but extra spell slot is a dumb feat, so I would be fine with that.
2) It gives you huge untyped bonuses to whatever skills are most important to you. You want to break the hide/spot RNG, do that, and also the other one, and now everyone has to have an item familiar to even see you, and to avoid being seen by you. Ijitsu fucking focus? Incantatrix Spellcraft? UMD for your CL 50 Blasphemies at level 10? Breaking the skill RNG in half is never a good thing.
3) You get Free XP, and without spending any other feats, you get the ability to spend that XP to craft items and double your WBL. Because double WBL is fun.
4) You get extra standard actions! Why yes, I am a Rogue that enchanted my item familiar to cast the Grease spell with it's actions, and then I use my own actions to full attack people denied dex to AC. Why yes, I am a Wizard who has my item familiar cast spells for me from as low a level as level 5, even though it usually takes a 5th level spell to let my regular familiar cast spells for me. I just get two spells a round when I want, isn't it grand?

Now, that covers why they feat is way more powerful than other feats, but let's also add that it is a feat, that gives you an item. That is fucking dumb as a concept. If you want to have an item, having an item is the way to have an item, not spending a feat.

So, now you have this super powerful feat, what do you do with it? Well, you play the game just like normal, except you invest almost all your Wealth into the Item Familiar, because 1) You get double wealth for doing that, 2) If you lose it you are screwed anyway. So you are a much more powerful character with more everything than everyone else. But what about losing your item you say? Well that's easy, you won't, or you will, and in either case you lose nothing. Watch:

1) I have a super powerful item familiar feat, I invest everything, and nothing bad happens to me and I am just the most powerful person in the party.
2) I have a super powerful item familiar feat, I invest everything and I am the most powerful person in the party, but then, one day the bad times strike, and in one way or another, I lose my item familiar. Now I have fewer spells slots than everyone else, less XP, no skill ranks at all, and no wealth, because all of that was in my item familiar. So because I have no MS, and no spot, and no listen, and no spellcraft, and no anything for skills, and because I have fewer spells slots, and because I have no wealth, because it's all gone, when I face a challenge for a character of my level, I die. Oh woe is me. My character died. Time to create a new character... With Item Familiar that he never lost!~

GET FUCKED BALANCE.

[faeryn]

<A giant Misconception>

You may wish to go back and actually read what item familiar does. It has a LOT of rules and restrictions.

Extra spell slot of your highest level? WRONG. It gives you a spell slot of your third highest level at the cost of a spell slot of your highest level.

Huge untyped bonuses to whatever skills? Requires assigning your skill points through your item familiar and is only +1 for every 3 skill points assigned... additionally the bonus cannot exceed your actual ranks in the skill.

Free XP? Well yes, but it's not the only way to get free XP nor is it the most unbalanced. Unlike a few other methods you stop gaining the bonus XP AND lose a chunk of your XP if you lose your item familiar.

Extra standard actions? I'm afraid not, only the Dedicated Power tied to it's Special Purpose (like any other intelligent item) is used by the item as it's own action. All other abilities require an action from the owner to activate. The Spell Use section even states "If an item familiar casts an invested spell, it is as if the master cast it". So no, you do not get extra standard actions.

It gives you an item? Au-contraire it requires you to have the item to begin with and has requirements for the item to be valid.

As for re-rolling a new character with it, that's up to your DM to allow, I know a few DMs who will tell you "nope, but you can pick it up as your next feat" and a few of them have had DMs that make you re-roll  a Lv 1-3 character even if you died at Lv 19. The power of re-rolling a character is restricted by what your DM permits.

As for being excessively overpowered... if your DM allows you to use Item Familiar and you make yourself overpowered with it, you should probably anticipate them using it on their BBEGs and many other higher level encounters... Or I don't know... Suggest it to them.

[Kaelik]

Extra spell slot of your highest level? WRONG. It gives you a spell slot of your third highest level at the cost of a spell slot of your highest level.

Whoopde fucking do, the extra spell slot that is the least powerful part of the familiar is weaker than I thought. It's a little weaker than I said, but since it's a small bonus to only some characters on top of extra wealth and skill ranks, who cares?

Huge untyped bonuses to whatever skills? Requires assigning your skill points through your item familiar and is only +1 for every 3 skill points assigned... additionally the bonus cannot exceed your actual ranks in the skill.

Yes, it does require investing skill ranks? Did you read me post at all, the entire premise was that you would invest every single skill point. So you get huge untyped bonuses to some skills, like Spot, Hide, UMD, or spellcraft if you are an incantatrix. But realistically for most characters it is one of both of spot/listen hide/ms. And yes it is capped at your ranks, but so what, your ranks are character level +3, adding character level +3 in addition to all the bonuses that already exists completely breaks the RNG at level 7 when you anything you would have succeeded at half the time you now succeed at 100% of the time.

Free XP? Well yes, but it's not the only way to get free XP nor is it the most unbalanced. Unlike a few other methods you stop gaining the bonus XP AND lose a chunk of your XP if you lose your item familiar.

1) I don't know what other ways you think there are to gain free XP, but by definition ones that only one person in the party has access to are the most unbalanced free XP sources.
2) The entire point of the post is that losing XP when you lose the item is not a disadvantage.

Extra standard actions? I'm afraid not, only the Dedicated Power tied to it's Special Purpose (like any other intelligent item) is used by the item as it's own action. All other abilities require an action from the owner to activate. The Spell Use section even states "If an item familiar casts an invested spell, it is as if the master cast it". So no, you do not get extra standard actions.

That is quite a deceptive lie of quote you have there. Here is the actual quote: "it is as if the master cast it for purposes of spells per day and preparation."

Not that no part of that involves the action cost. And in fact, it tells you that the action cost is a standard action and that is for the item. Once again, if you have a wand and the wand is sapient, or a ring of blinking, then the ring can totally just use those effects with it's own actions. That is what Sapience means for items.

"Unlike most magic items, intelligent items can activate their own powers without waiting for a command word from their owner. Intelligent items act during their owner’s turn in the initiative order."

So yes, if you use the express ability of item familiar: "An item familiar can be improved as other magic items can be. By spending gold pieces (and time and experience points, assuming the character is the one doing the work), a character can add new abilities to his item familiar. If a character links himself to a +1 longsword, for example, it only costs 6,000 gp (or 3,000 gp and 240 XP) to add another +1 of enhancement bonus or, perhaps, a special ability that is equivalent to a +1 bonus (such as spell storing or flaming). The character can accomplish this even without having the requisite item creation feats."

to turn your item into a wand of grease as well as whatever it was before, then it can use the grease spell without using your actions. If you make your item into spell use item, and your Character level is 7, then your Item Familiar has actions, and uses it's standard actions to cast your spells, and those spells are treated as your spells for the purpose of spell preparation, but not for actions.

It gives you an item? Au-contraire it requires you to have the item to begin with and has requirements for the item to be valid.

Uh... who cares? It magically makes a single item in your possession into a super item. Feats are supposed to be about your personal abilities, items about the things you own. Spending a feat to make a thing you own into a different thing you own is a stupid concept.

As for re-rolling a new character with it, that's up to your DM to allow, I know a few DMs who will tell you "nope, but you can pick it up as your next feat" and a few of them have had DMs that make you re-roll  a Lv 1-3 character even if you died at Lv 19. The power of re-rolling a character is restricted by what your DM permits.

If you DM decides to whip out a gun and shoot you in the head in the middle of the session, they can totally do that, but if the DM decides to do that, you probably don't want to play D&D with them. If your DM plans to dickride you in a really dumb way to compensate for the fact that a feat is broken he could also dickride you by deciding that your Cohort betrays you and attacks you every combat. Or by deciding that when you take the Persist spell feat, Everyone in the multiverse instantly knows and comes to murder you. If your DM thinks a level 1 character and a level 19 character can play in the same party, they are just wrong and don't know how to play D&D, if they think the punishment for characters retiring or dying because you want to play a different character is to not play the game for the next 5 sessions, then they are an asshole.

As for being excessively overpowered... if your DM allows you to use Item Familiar and you make yourself overpowered with it, you should probably anticipate them using it on their BBEGs and many other higher level encounters... Or I don't know... Suggest it to them.

This has always been the dumbest response to overpowered things ever. If things are overpowered, then making it so that 99% of the content of the game ceases to exist is a really bad solution to that problem. Deciding that all monsters either have an item familiar or are push overs is not a solution. Just like the solution to broken Gate spell is not to have the enemy BBEG and the party both Gate in Greater Wyrm Prismatic Dragons and have them fight, it is to not have anyone fucking gate.

All the more so when you are advocating that one party member should now be the only one capable of interacting with the boss, and the other party members have to either discard all non-Item Familiar characters or be useless.

[faeryn]

Ok, so I miss read a little on the Spell use... it says to see the Cantrips & Orisons ability, which says it's a free action for you to command the item familiar to cast the spell... oh well you still have to supply the spell and spell slots, it's limited to the spell slots invested on how many spells per day it can cast but uses your preparations (if your a prepaird caster). It's not as overpowered as you make it out to be. At most it can only cast your Lv - 3 spells per day... Those investments cost you your highest level spell slots though. So you want an item familiar that can cast spells every round? Well say goodbye to ever casting 9th Lv spells and maybe even your 8th Lv spells too. <- You know what that's called? Inbuilt balance.
-- Is this any worse than a Wizard or Sorcerer giving their familiar spells per day? Nope... What about someone taking Leadership and basically recruiting a clone of themself as thier Cohort? Nope... Wait... I got it... you see this happening don't you... Wizard or Sorcerer with Item Familiar and Leadership recruits a Cohort Wizard or Sorcerer with Item Familiar... Now that player is effectively casting 6 spells per turn... Thats by no means the worst way to break the game. I've played with people who optimize the hell out of action economy to the point where they had 7 or 8 extra actions per round.

Skill bonuses, you realize Item familiars arn't the only way to get absurd skill bonuses... sure you can stack item familiar ontop of those other methods if you want, but so what. You can actually get most skills over the "impossible to fail" threshhold fairly easily without an item familiar, it's only when using opposed skill checks that it can become a problem. And when I said actual ranks I mean just that... you have 7 ranks in UMD with a max of 10? Well you can only put a +7 bonus in UMD despite your max being 10... Why you wouldn't have it maxed? Does it really matter?

You think it's a stupid concept? There's far more worse concept feats out there. There are feats to give you abilities that you should have already fucking had to begin with. Hell there are feats that completely clone entire sets of class features and implement them better than the actual classes that they came from.



You dont think the feat should exist, that's your perogative, don't allow it in your campaigns. Simple as that.

[Mr. woop woop]

Whoopde fucking do, the extra spell slot that is the least powerful part of the familiar is weaker than I thought. It's a little weaker than I said, but since it's a small bonus to only some characters on top of extra wealth and skill ranks, who cares?

Was it really necessary to say this in such an attacking way?

If you DM decides to whip out a gun and shoot you in the head in the middle of the session, they can totally do that, but if the DM decides to do that, you probably don't want to play D&D with them. If your DM plans to dickride you in a really dumb way to compensate for the fact that a feat is broken he could also dickride you by deciding that your Cohort betrays you and attacks you every combat. Or by deciding that when you take the Persist spell feat, Everyone in the multiverse instantly knows and comes to murder you. If your DM thinks a level 1 character and a level 19 character can play in the same party, they are just wrong and don't know how to play D&D, if they think the punishment for characters retiring or dying because you want to play a different character is to not play the game for the next 5 sessions, then they are an asshole.

Dick ride you because a feat is broken? It's you who chose to break the game and take the feat. This is like saying you did dragonwrought kobald cheese and got a book thrown at you, so you stopped playing with them. WTF!? The punishment for character retirement or dying? no the punishment is for you being to childish to let go of a character that died so you make a clone of your character and call it his brother.

Like damn I know I'm an asshole but at least I don't attack someone for putting forward a good argument. Wait...

[Kaelik]

Ok, so I miss read a little on the Spell use... it says to see the Cantrips & Orisons ability, which says it's a free action for you to command the item familiar to cast the spell... oh well you still have to supply the spell and spell slots, it's limited to the spell slots invested on how many spells per day it can cast but uses your preparations (if your a prepaird caster). It's not as overpowered as you make it out to be. At most it can only cast your Lv - 3 spells per day...

The invested slot is your highest level spell. It casts your highest available spell level. You can use the item
s extra action to cast your highest level spell slot.

Those investments cost you your highest level spell slots though. So you want an item familiar that can cast spells every round? Well say goodbye to ever casting 9th Lv spells and maybe even your 8th Lv spells too. <- You know what that's called? Inbuilt balance.

No that's called... not the effect of the feat at all. You don't lose spell slots. You invest them in the Item Familiar, but you still have the slots and can use it. In fact the slot invested in the Familiar is the one it is casting.

-- Is this any worse than a Wizard or Sorcerer giving their familiar spells per day? Nope... What about someone taking Leadership and basically recruiting a clone of themself as thier Cohort? Nope... Wait... I got it... you see this happening don't you... Wizard or Sorcerer with Item Familiar and Leadership recruits a Cohort Wizard or Sorcerer with Item Familiar... Now that player is effectively casting 6 spells per turn... Thats by no means the worst way to break the game. I've played with people who optimize the hell out of action economy to the point where they had 7 or 8 extra actions per round.

The fact that something is not the worst way to break the game is not in fact, evidence that it isn't OP. I feel like I might need to repeat this a lot. Also, as I explained, you have to be a level 9 character who spends their highest spell level to get your Familiar to cast spells for you, instead of getting it for free along with an extra slot, extra skill breaking, and extra WBL.

Skill bonuses, you realize Item familiars arn't the only way to get absurd skill bonuses... sure you can stack item familiar ontop of those other methods if you want, but so what. You can actually get most skills over the "impossible to fail" threshhold fairly easily without an item familiar, it's only when using opposed skill checks that it can become a problem.

Remember that thing I said about not the worst way to break the game doesn't make it not OP? Read that sentence again. And yes, aside from Spellcraft for Incantatrixes, which the DC can scale very high, and UMD, where more ranks equals a higher caster level and a higher DC, the most important skills in the game are the opposed spot vs hide, listen vs MS. I mean it's almost like those are the skills I mentioned or something.

And when I said actual ranks I mean just that... you have 7 ranks in UMD with a max of 10? Well you can only put a +7 bonus in UMD despite your max being 10... Why you wouldn't have it maxed? Does it really matter?

Yes, I agree, you can't add your super extra untyped bonuses to break the RNG to skills you aren't using... That is literally the dumbest thing it is possible to say. If you want to add your extra untyped bonuses to something, you do it because you already maxed ranks.

You don't think the feat should exist, that's your perogative, don't allow it in your campaigns. Simple as that.

Or in the alternative, don't allow the feat in my game, and make a post about how the feat is more powerful than other feats, distorts the game by it's inclusion, and is a dumb concept.

Dick ride you because a feat is broken? It's you who chose to break the game and take the feat. This is like saying you did dragonwrought kobald cheese and got a book thrown at you, so you stopped playing with them. WTF!? The punishment for character retirement or dying? no the punishment is for you being to childish to let go of a character that died so you make a clone of your character and call it his brother.

1) If taking the feat is breaking the game, then I'm right and people shouldn't be allowed to take the feat.
2) So, which of these things do you object to:
a) It doesn't make sense for a level 17 character with no skill ranks and no money to continue adventuring, and he should instead retire to something simple like casting spells for money.
b) I don't want to play a character that is off the RNG in suckiness on the critical skills that every high level character needs to contribute, and I'd rather play a different character that won't make the entire party hate me all day every day when I alert enemies to our approach.
b') D&D is a game for people to have fun, and you can't force me and all the other players to suffer as punishment for perceived slights against balance that are your fault for not banning the OP feat in the first place.
c) Level 1 characters should not play in a game with level 17 characters.
c') Exactly b' all over again.

Because if you agree with all of those, then you agree that people are allowed to retire their characters after the item familiar is permanently gone and their character is a walking cripple that sabotages the party by it's very presence.

Like damn I know I'm an asshole but at least I don't attack someone for putting forward a good argument. Wait...

There would have to be a good argument first. The argument "Your DM could decide that you are a level 1 character in a level 19 party fighting Balors so Item Familiar is balanced" is about as far from a good argument as it is possible to get.

[Mr. woop woop]

The invested slot is your highest level spell. It casts your highest available spell level. You can use the item
s extra action to cast your highest level spell slot.

So if I invest 1000$ in a company I get to keep the thousand dollars and the stock I get in that company? time to go work in the stock markets! This, sadly, is not how an investment works.

You have to use one of your 3........ 3 Upgrades to get A SINGLE SPELL. And you only get to cast it once because you have to use your invested spell slot. so casting 2 level 9 spells in 1 round is broken? then I guess ever single way to get 2 standard actions is broken. IT'S ALSO LIMITED TO SPELLS WITH NON EXPENSIVE MATERIAL COMPONENTS... AND NO XP COMPONENTS!

The fact that something is not the worst way to break the game is not in fact, evidence that it isn't OP. I feel like I might need to repeat this a lot. Also, as I explained, you have to be a level 9 character who spends their highest spell level to get your Familiar to cast spells for you, instead of getting it for free along with an extra slot, extra skill breaking, and extra WBL.

So what if it's STRONG. would you call power attack broken? no! what about WBL? no! would you call anything ever broken. NO! Because everything has a weakness. Just sunder the item, or steal it, then use a anchor spell so the person can't use returning. just because something is above the normal distribution on a power curve doesn't make it broken it just means you have to use your brain a little more to figure out a way around it. AND THAT'S WHAT THIS GAME IS ABOUT! finding ways to solve amazing situations that we could never get to otherwise experience.

Remember that thing I said about not the worst way to break the game doesn't make it not OP? Read that sentence again. And yes, aside from Spellcraft for Incantatrixes, which the DC can scale very high, and UMD, where more ranks equals a higher caster level and a higher DC, the most important skills in the game are the opposed spot vs hide, listen vs MS. I mean it's almost like those are the skills I mentioned or something.

It's almost like the idea of a most important skill is complete(sorry for the curse words) bullshit. I personally feel that Diplomacy is a far better skill then hide will ever be. And to say that giving untyped bonuses is broken because you can get a higher than normal UMD skill to break the game is also stupid because that requires your DM to allow the EXTREMELY controversial reading of UMD. There is also the fact that it cost a 3:1 ratio meaning that some of the biggest skill classes still have to give up more than half there skill points per level leaving little to no optimization in other areas.

Yes, I agree, you can't add your super extra untyped bonuses to break the RNG to skills you aren't using... That is literally the dumbest thing it is possible to say. If you want to add your extra untyped bonuses to something, you do it because you already maxed ranks.

Who exactly cares about skill RNG? No character worth there salt would rely on skills because there are plenty of ways around it. OH you have a really high hide check. well your in a room with no cover or darkness to hide in. SO you can't hide.

Why would any GOOD player rely on something like RNG? I could also make an item worth about 4000 gold to give me a +10 UNTYPED bonus to 1 ability with about 3 feats. So is 3ish feats and 4k gold equivalent to 1 feat and losing 2/3's of your skill points. NO! it's way under powered. you are losing such a large amount of skill points for such a small bonus TO A SINGLE ABILITY! Don't try to sit there and act like this trade off is some ungodly broken mechanic.

Or in the alternative, don't allow the feat in my game, and make a post about how the feat is more powerful than other feats, distorts the game by it's inclusion, and is a dumb concept.

The feat is not overpowered. It moves the power of your character from one aspect to another. It increases versatility. It give more options to non-spell casters who are otherwise weaker that there caster counterparts. And no it does not buff casters because it takes spell levels, a very precious commodity, and makes them more scarce as well as only offering a very limited number of spells and abilities, OF WHICH ARE ALL BELOW THE POWER CURVE.

1) If taking the feat is breaking the game, then I'm right and people shouldn't be allowed to take the feat.
2) So, which of these things do you object to:
a) It doesn't make sense for a level 17 character with no skill ranks and no money to continue adventuring, and he should instead retire to something simple like casting spells for money.
b) I don't want to play a character that is off the RNG in suckiness on the critical skills that every high level character needs to contribute, and I'd rather play a different character that won't make the entire party hate me all day every day when I alert enemies to our approach.
b') D&D is a game for people to have fun, and you can't force me and all the other players to suffer as punishment for perceived slights against balance that are your fault for not banning the OP feat in the first place.
c) Level 1 characters should not play in a game with level 17 characters.
c') Exactly b' all over again.

Because if you agree with all of those, then you agree that people are allowed to retire their characters after the item familiar is permanently gone and their character is a walking cripple that sabotages the party by it's very presence.

1. It doesn't break the game. If the item is broken or stolen you will probably die anyways during that combat. If it's stolen out of combat you have plenty of time to get it back and this allows your dm to push plot advancement in a safe but predictable way.
2. Please don't put words or ideas in my mouth. I never said you can't retire your character. What I said is The punishment for character retirement or dying? no the punishment is for you being to childish to let go of a character that died so you make a clone of your character and call it his brother.

No one ever said that the DM will punish you for not wanting to play that character. your dm should, however, punish you for cloning your character because you got screwed over by a feat that you made a conscious decision in taking. AND YES. if you complained or felt bad about your item being destroyed and remade the same character. I would say make a different character or get out of my group. We don't need players who are to concerned about breaking the game and not having fun in our group. However if you can break the game and have fun at the same time more power to you.

There would have to be a good argument first. The argument "Your DM could decide that you are a level 1 character in a level 19 party fighting Balors so Item Familiar is balanced" is about as far from a good argument as it is possible to get.

First off. If you think item familiar is THAT unbalanced you really need to get checked out. AT MOST it may be a 1 OR 2 level adjustment not a 18 level adjustment. And yes. your DM could decide that. The game is your DM's. they are telling the story. If they don't want casters they don't have to have them. If they don't want to incluse TOB they don't have to. If they don't want to allow red wizard because they hate circle magic. GUESS WAHT. ~they don't have to~ Just play your part STFU and be happy about it.

[Captnq]

I'm confused. What the hell is this argument about?

Item familiar gives you X+Y.

To balance this, item familiar may be stolen/destroyed and when that happens, you lose X and can, eventually, get back Y, but you never get back X. You can start spending Z to start building up X again, but you will get back your original X. The investment into the original X is lost.

1) The DM likes his players and never steals it.
2) The DM gets a monk with Ancestral Relic combined with item familiar and at 8th level has slight of hand of about 80. He picks your pocket as a free action, stripping you naked as he walks past you. Once it's on the ground, two nearby wizards use anti-magic or dispel or whatever to render the item non-magical and then shatter the bastard. The undead beholder you pissed off who called the hit on you laughs and says, "Much more fun to watch them suffer".

And if you are about to say, "No DM would do anything like that because it's unfair" Then the question becomes, "At what point would you think it was "fair" that the DM took away your item familiar, and you WON'T explode in a ball of nerdy rage?"

Yes, theoretical, it's fair. Because you created a September player. Meaning, you are an ultimate cosmic power, until someone says September, then you are rendered powerless. Either the DM will never say September, or he will. He takes away your item, or he doesn't.

It's BORING. It's Like Elric and his sword. Like The one ring. Like any one of a thousand items of power that screw you, but you are useless without. It makes a great STORY, but in the game, it sucks.

[phaedrusxy]

The invested slot is your highest level spell. It casts your highest available spell level. You can use the item
s extra action to cast your highest level spell slot.

So if I invest 1000$ in a company I get to keep the thousand dollars and the stock I get in that company? time to go work in the stock markets! This, sadly, is not how an investment works.

We're not talking about stock markets here. Reread the feat. That's exactly how it works. You still get full use of the things that are "invested" in the item, as long as you don't lose the item (it's more like you still own the stock, and then get dividends). If you lose the item, then RAW (following CapnQ's logic) you permanently lose the stuff that was invested in it.

I don't see how you can get a spell slot of your maximum level, though, as the bonus spell slot is specifically 2 levels lower than your maximum. (I didn't read the whole thread.... so maybe I missed that...)

So yeah, you get an immense power boost (+10% XP for free, retroactively even; an extra spell slot + action to use it; massive skill boosts, etc), but if you lose the item you are FUBAR (and perhaps will be making another character, as Kaelik pointed out).

[Kaelik]

So if I invest 1000$ in a company I get to keep the thousand dollars and the stock I get in that company? time to go work in the stock markets! This, sadly, is not how an investment works.

This is going to come up a few times, but you clearly have no idea how Item Familiar works, I mean, I forgot that the spell slot was lower level, but you clearly have no idea.

One ability is specifically that you invest a level 5 spell in order to get a bonus level 3 spell. Quick check, if you couldn't still prepare and cast the level 5 spell who would ever do that? No one. Which is why the feat specifically says that you can still use the level 5 slot.

You have to use one of your 3........ 3 Upgrades to get A SINGLE SPELL. And you only get to cast it once because you have to use your invested spell slot. so casting 2 level 9 spells in 1 round is broken? then I guess ever single way to get 2 standard actions is broken. IT'S ALSO LIMITED TO SPELLS WITH NON EXPENSIVE MATERIAL COMPONENTS... AND NO XP COMPONENTS!

Yes, the feat that gives you extra XP, extra skill breaking, extra wealth, and an extra spell slot only lets you cast one spell a day using the item's actions. Well, you know, until you enchanted it as a staff, then it can use it's actions to cast staff spells instead. Or a ring of blinking, whatever.

The fact that something is not the worst way to break the game is not in fact, evidence that it isn't OP.

So what if it's STRONG. would you call power attack broken? no! what about WBL? no! would you call anything ever broken. NO! Because everything has a weakness. Just sunder the item, or steal it, then use a anchor spell so the person can't use returning. just because something is above the normal distribution on a power curve doesn't make it broken it just means you have to use your brain a little more to figure out a way around it.

1) No one is complaining they can't figure out a way to deal with it. Any DM can destroy an item, it's not even hard. The dumb part is that before you destroy the item, the character who has it is too much more powerful than everyone else, so the game is unfun, and after you destroy it, they are so weak that the game is unfun. It's the whole, trying to be fun thing that is at issue.
2) Being above the normal distribution does not make it broken on it's own, that comes more to things like making the game unfun, but if you learn how to read some time in the next couple years, you might accidentally discover that what I said is that it is overpowered, and since being above the normal power distribution is basically a definition for overpowered, that would mean that I am right.

It's almost like the idea of a most important skill is complete(sorry for the curse words) bullshit. I personally feel that Diplomacy is a far better skill then hide will ever be. And to say that giving untyped bonuses is broken because you can get a higher than normal UMD skill to break the game is also stupid because that requires your DM to allow the EXTREMELY controversial reading of UMD. There is also the fact that it cost a 3:1 ratio meaning that some of the biggest skill classes still have to give up more than half there skill points per level leaving little to no optimization in other areas.

1) Well since you can actually play the game with an RNG breaking hide check and you can't with diplomacy, so your DM is much more likely to houserule one of those... But whatever, yes, there are 4 skills that are important for everyone, there is one skill that is important for everyone playing in a game where Diplomacy is used stupidly, there is one skill important to incantatrixes, there is one skill important to bullshit factotum pretenders, and there is one skill important to everyone in a game that lets them UMD staves of Holy Word. But you know, aside from those skills, and the knowledge skills that identify monsters, everything else is pretty shitty.
2) You still don't get that you get to keep the 3 ranks you invested. I wonder if, on realizing that you get to keep the ranks you invest, you will now realize that item familiar is much more powerful, or if you will instead continue to insist it is perfectly balanced. Again, you don't have to give up any skill points at all, you just invest all your ranks, and you still get to use them. You just also get free bonuses.

Who exactly cares about skill RNG? No character worth there salt would rely on skills because there are plenty of ways around it. OH you have a really high hide check. well your in a room with no cover or darkness to hide in. SO you can't hide.

Presumably people who want to play D&D. Although, you know lots of people can just obtain the ability to create concealment at all times. Hell you can buy hide in plain sight for like, 10k or something.

Why would any GOOD player rely on something like RNG? I could also make an item worth about 4000 gold to give me a +10 UNTYPED bonus to 1 ability with about 3 feats. So is 3ish feats and 4k gold equivalent to 1 feat and losing 2/3's of your skill points. NO! it's way under powered. you are losing such a large amount of skill points for such a small bonus TO A SINGLE ABILITY! Don't try to sit there and act like this trade off is some ungodly broken mechanic.

Uh... Once again, you lose zero fucking skill points. Also, you know, for a single feat, Item Familiar, that also gives untyped bonuses to skills, you can actually then craft your item familiar to give you bonuses to as many skills as you want for less money than buying the items. And then you can spend the other feats on other things.

The feat is not overpowered. It moves the power of your character from one aspect to another. It increases versatility. It give more options to non-spell casters who are otherwise weaker that there caster counterparts. And no it does not buff casters because it takes spell levels, a very precious commodity, and makes them more scarce as well as only offering a very limited number of spells and abilities, OF WHICH ARE ALL BELOW THE POWER CURVE.

No, it gives them more power. It doesn't move the power from anywhere, because you don't know how the feat works. . . It takes zero spell levels. It grants extra XP and an extra spell slot for no cost at all. Spellcasters love Item Familiar.

What I said is The punishment for character retirement or dying? no the punishment is for you being to childish to let go of a character that died so you make a clone of your character and call it his brother.

Then you are super mega dumb, because no one said that.

First off. If you think item familiar is THAT unbalanced you really need to get checked out. AT MOST it may be a 1 OR 2 level adjustment not a 18 level adjustment.

Hey dumby dumb face. I didn't say that was an accurate measure of item familiars power, I said that was the proposed solution, and it was terrible. It is just as terrible at 2-3 levels as it is at 18.

And yes. your DM could decide that. The game is your DM's. they are telling the story. If they don't want casters they don't have to have them. If they don't want to incluse TOB they don't have to. If they don't want to allow red wizard because they hate circle magic. GUESS WAHT. ~they don't have to~ Just play your part STFU and be happy about it.

You are a terrible monstrous person who is a cancer on the hobby. As a DM this offends the fuck out of me. As a human being this offends me. It is a cooperative storytelling game. If the DM doesn't want to play a cooperative storytelling game they can go write a novel. If they do, then the fun of the people at the game is always more important than fapping to your story.

[faeryn]

Invest Spell Slots
Only spellcasters may choose to use this option. A character with an item familiar may choose to invest a single spell slot in his familiar and gain a bonus spell slot in return. The single spell slot must be of the highest spell level he can cast, and the bonus spell slot is always two levels lower than the slot invested in the item. As the caster gains (or loses) levels, the spell slot invested in the item changes so that it is always of the highest spell level he can cast, and the bonus spell slot also changes accordingly, remaining two levels lower than that.

If a spellcaster does not have a spell slot two levels lower than the highest spell level he can cast (if he can cast only 0- and 1st-level spells), he cannot use this option.

As with all other investiture options, if the item familiar is lost or destroyed, so are both spell slots.

For example, as a 7th-level wizard, Boredflak can cast 4th-level spells. He chooses to invest one 4th-level spell slot in his ring. The ring gains an additional 2nd-level spell slot, which Boredflak can use as long as he has the ring in his possession. When Boredflak attains 9th level, the spell slot assigned to the ring automatically becomes a 5th-level spell slot, and the bonus slot becomes a 3rd-level spell slot instead of a 2nd-level one.

Nowhere in there does it say that you get to keep the invested spell slot... unlike the entry for investing skill ranks:

Invest Skill Ranks
Whenever a character with an item familiar gains skill points, he may choose to put some or all of those skill points into his item familiar. He assigns the skill points normally, but notes that they now reside in the item familiar. For every 3 ranks he assigns to the item familiar, he gains a +1 bonus that he can apply to any single skill. This bonus can be applied to a skill in which he already has maximum ranks. He can apply multiple bonuses to the same skill, but he may not have more points of bonus in a skill than he has ranks.

If the character loses the item familiar, is separated from it for one day per level (see the Item Familiar feat description), or if the item familiar is destroyed, these skill points and the bonuses related to them are lost.

For example, Boredflak has just achieved 7th character level, and he takes a level of wizard. Because of his high Intelligence score, he gains 7 skill points. He assigns 1 skill point to each of the following skills:

Concentration
Decipher Script*
Knowledge (arcana)*
Knowledge (dungeoneering)*
Knowledge (nobility and royalty)*
Knowledge (the planes)*
Spellcraft*
He uses an asterisk to note that 1 rank for each of six skills resides in his ring. Since that adds up to a total of 6 skill ranks in the ring, he gains two +1 bonuses he can apply to any skill. He decides to assign both bonuses (a total of +2) to his Concentration skill. Boredflak only has 1 rank in the cross-class skill Spot. If he had desired, he could have applied a single +1 bonus to that skill, but not both.

Which does specifically state that you keep the invested skill ranks. Now why would they specify that you keep your skill ranks but not specify keeping spell slots? The answer is pretty clear, you don't keep the invested spell slots. Investing spell slots is meant to allow your item familiar access to spells, not to give you more spells per day. I could be wrong, but that's just my and my D'n'D groups understanding of it.

Additionally, the penalty of losing everything upon losing the item familiar is there to discourage you from investing everything... it's there to encourage you to invest a little here and there and assign the rest normally so if the unthinkable does happen you aren't completely helpless... It's a risk vs reward type of feat. You risk a little you get a little, but if you risk a lot you get a lot... If you take the high risk then you should rightfully expect to lose it all at any moment, if you risk a little then you're most likely never going to lose the item since your not abusing it.

[linklord231]

Additionally, the penalty of losing everything upon losing the item familiar is there to discourage you from investing everything... it's there to encourage you to invest a little here and there and assign the rest normally so if the unthinkable does happen you aren't completely helpless... It's a risk vs reward type of feat. You risk a little you get a little, but if you risk a lot you get a lot... If you take the high risk then you should rightfully expect to lose it all at any moment, if you risk a little then you're most likely never going to lose the item since your not abusing it.

As I said earlier in the thread, designing an ability that's balanced around "but the DM can take it away!" is a bad idea.  If the DM doesn't take it away, then you're more powerful than average.  If the DM does take it away, then you're less powerful than average.  Either way, you're out of balance. 

[Mr. woop woop]

As I said earlier in the thread, designing an ability that's balanced around "but the DM can take it away!" is a bad idea.  If the DM doesn't take it away, then you're more powerful than average.  If the DM does take it away, then you're less powerful than average.  Either way, you're out of balance.

Now I do still agree with you it is a bad idea. But the feet is so flawed it is almost unusable.

This item doesn't make you a god. It doesn't make you immune to damage. It doesn't shield you. In a combat you will die just as easily with or without this item. The item give 0 combat bonuses and stats. It will give you a spell IF you already cast them and then spend a point in it. This only increases out of combat bonuses. Yes this is far above the curve in out of combat stat bonuses.

This is going to come up a few times, but you clearly have no idea how Item Familiar works, I mean, I forgot that the spell slot was lower level, but you clearly have no idea.

I do know how it works I have made plenty of characters that use it. What you fail to realize is that you don't get to spend the original points put into item familiar as untyped bones. they have to be applied normally. which doesn't break it.

One ability is specifically that you invest a level 5 spell in order to get a bonus level 3 spell. Quick check, if you couldn't still prepare and cast the level 5 spell who would ever do that? No one. Which is why the feat specifically says that you can still use the level 5 slot.

No. Just no. The feat not once says you can cast that spell slot until you get to the granted powers section of the feat.

Yes, the feat that gives you extra XP, extra skill breaking, extra wealth, and an extra spell slot only lets you cast one spell a day using the item's actions. Well, you know, until you enchanted it as a staff, then it can use it's actions to cast staff spells instead. Or a ring of blinking, whatever.

It does give you more XP. skills can't, won't be broken. you can't break wealth with this. And an extra spell slot that only casts once per day IF you select it from a list of powers. you don't just get that shit you earn it.
... until you enchant it as a staff? Why wouldn't I just make an intelligent staff item then? This makes no scence in the slightest. cool 1 thing is good but it's broken when you add another thing? that happens for a lot of shit. You can't just say this is op because of that.

 for a challange. break the game right now. how high can you get the untyped bonus?

1) No one is complaining they can't figure out a way to deal with it. Any DM can destroy an item, it's not even hard. The dumb part is that before you destroy the item, the character who has it is too much more powerful than everyone else, so the game is unfun, and after you destroy it, they are so weak that the game is unfun. It's the whole, trying to be fun thing that is at issue.
2) Being above the normal distribution does not make it broken on it's own, that comes more to things like making the game unfun, but if you learn how to read some time in the next couple years, you might accidentally discover that what I said is that it is overpowered, and since being above the normal power distribution is basically a definition for overpowered, that would mean that I am right.

1) No that character is not to powerful for anyone to have fun. If you think your wizard casting 2 spells in one round is going to make the game any less fun then you're stupid. If you think your rouge being able to sneak slightly better is going to make the game less fun you're stupid. If you think having 10% more xp is going to make the game less fun you're stupid. So should we ban everything that is slightly above the power curve because you deem it as un-fun?
2) No. You're mistaken on your own words. I said it was overpowered. you called it broken which it is not.

If your DM plans to dickride you in a really dumb way to compensate for the fact that a feat is broken

1) Well since you can actually play the game with an RNG breaking hide check and you can't with diplomacy, so your DM is much more likely to houserule one of those... But whatever, yes, there are 4 skills that are important for everyone, there is one skill that is important for everyone playing in a game where Diplomacy is used stupidly, there is one skill important to incantatrixes, there is one skill important to bullshit factotum pretenders, and there is one skill important to everyone in a game that lets them UMD staves of Holy Word. But you know, aside from those skills, and the knowledge skills that identify monsters, everything else is pretty shitty.
2) You still don't get that you get to keep the 3 ranks you invested. I wonder if, on realizing that you get to keep the ranks you invest, you will now realize that item familiar is much more powerful, or if you will instead continue to insist it is perfectly balanced. Again, you don't have to give up any skill points at all, you just invest all your ranks, and you still get to use them. You just also get free bonuses.

1) Stop saying RNG breaking as if it's important. Should we ban bards because they give bonuses to skill checks? should we ban items that give these bonuses? NO! Getting better skill checks is part of the game.
2) I'm sorry but once again. stop. putting. words. in. my. mouth. I never said it was perfectly balanced. But asking for perfect balance is stupid and childish. Nothing can be perfectly balanced. So what do we do? we use things that are above that curve because they are simply better. there is nothing wrong with that. NOTHING. That is part of the game. It gives you that sense of accomplishment, like, I found something strong and I get to use it to solve any problem in my way.

Presumably people who want to play D&D. Although, you know lots of people can just obtain the ability to create concealment at all times. Hell you can buy hide in plain sight for like, 10k or something.

Saying this is broken because they might take that is stupid.
Also hide in plain sight is not a good argument because I can just run arcane eye and see your bright ass item familiar which at this point is a giant beacon of magic.

Uh... Once again, you lose zero fucking skill points. Also, you know, for a single feat, Item Familiar, that also gives untyped bonuses to skills, you can actually then craft your item familiar to give you bonuses to as many skills as you want for less money than buying the items. And then you can spend the other feats on other things.

And good for you for seeing that you can decrease crafting time before crafting. so why did you waste your bonuses on crafting exactly? Also the base item has to be magical. So if you do want to enchant it more on your own it will cost you double the money.

No, it gives them more power. It doesn't move the power from anywhere, because you don't know how the feat works. . . It takes zero spell levels. It grants extra XP and an extra spell slot for no cost at all. Spellcasters love Item Familiar.

Once again. It does take the spell level until you invest a certain ability in it.

What I said is The punishment for character retirement or dying? no the punishment is for you being to childish to let go of a character that died so you make a clone of your character and call it his brother.

Then you are super mega dumb, because no one said that.

THIS WAS THE BASE TO YOUR WHOLE FUCKING ARGUMENT!? You said the DM could do whatever he wants like shot you in the head in response to someone telling you not to clone your fucking character.

Hey dumby dumb face. I didn't say that was an accurate measure of item familiars power, I said that was the proposed solution, and it was terrible. It is just as terrible at 2-3 levels as it is at 18.

Hey stupid mc jackass you're the one who made the argument in the first place. don't try to turn it around. Once again it comedown to the fact that it's slightly better than some other feets. So what? we should punish people for thinking and finding something strong? WTF kind of thinking is that? why not reward them for finding this.

You are a terrible monstrous person who is a cancer on the hobby. As a DM this offends the fuck out of me. As a human being this offends me. It is a cooperative storytelling game. If the DM doesn't want to play a cooperative storytelling game they can go write a novel. If they do, then the fun of the people at the game is always more important than fapping to your story.

Holy shit. I have never met a more... scumbag of a person. never in my life have a seen someone who is as self centered as you. To attack two or more people because they don't have the same opinion as you. your view this whole time has been KNEEL TO MY POWER.

OK LOOK The DM writes the story. you find fun and interesting ways through the story. If you are going to bitch and make it so everyone else has a worse time because you don't want to lose you precious OP character than your ass is out. This is a game that is meant to be fun for all NOT JUST FUN FOR YOU.

So what did I do to have you attack me anyways? Ask you not to attack another board member? Tell you that there are ways around the OP aspects of the item? what makes me evil? what makes me a cancer on this world? because as far as I can see the one who started with attacking and calling names was you. What a disgrace. Attacking people then trying to act like a victim. Please get the fuck off your high horse.

[Kaelik]

You clearly have less than no idea what conversations are actually occurring, so this will be my last attempt to explain to you what people are actually saying, and then I'll let you rail against your delusions as much as you want.

for a challange. break the game right now. how high can you get the untyped bonus?

+23 or +26 depending on how you want to interpret bloodline levels. Level is important. But yes, in before you claim that because you can spend 30k on an item that adds +30 that this isn't broken, even though this stacks with that item because you don't understand the concept of an RNG.

2) No. You're mistaken on your own words. I said it was overpowered. you called it broken which it is not.

No you idiot. I called it Overpowered or variations thereof 14 hundred times, and I've said broken twice in this thread, once about the Gate spell and once as a sarcastic mockery of the position taken by another poster, and never about the stupid feat.

1) Stop saying RNG breaking as if it's important. Should we ban bards because they give bonuses to skill checks? should we ban items that give these bonuses? NO! Getting better skill checks is part of the game.

Again, learn the concept of the RNG, getting better at skills is fine and dandy, but breaking the RNG on important skills prevents the game from even being played.

And good for you for seeing that you can decrease crafting time before crafting. so why did you waste your bonuses on crafting exactly? Also the base item has to be magical. So if you do want to enchant it more on your own it will cost you double the money.

Uh... What the fuck even are you talking about. No one is using any bonuses on crafting. You can use the feat to add any magic effect you want onto your item familiar at half cost, because it says that specifically in the description. Even applying the 1.5 cost adjustment for second effect (not double, because you still don't know the rules) which you can avoid for like 95% of the things you will want to add to the item, you still are paying less money than WBL requires, since you spend .75, and you can easily give it spells to cast, and a saving throw bonus, and a couple stat bonuses without having to pay that 1.5 adjustment.

THIS WAS THE BASE TO YOUR WHOLE FUCKING ARGUMENT!? You said the DM could do whatever he wants like shot you in the head in response to someone telling you not to clone your fucking character.

Once again (or still) you have no idea what is going on. 1) No one every claimed that anyone was going to clone any character. 2) That wasn't my argument, that was the argument of the person who I was arguing with. The argument was that the DM will just decide that you aren't allowed to retire your character, or that if you do, you start at level 1. That was the argument. My argument, unsurprisingly, was that if someone is that dumb, you should just not play D&D with them.

Hey stupid mc jackass you're the one who made the argument in the first place. don't try to turn it around. Once again it comedown to the fact that it's slightly better than some other feets. So what? we should punish people for thinking and finding something strong? WTF kind of thinking is that? why not reward them for finding this.

1) You don't reward them for finding it because it is a dumb feat that distorts them game in unfun ways. Just like you don't reward someone for googling "Best Wizard PrC" and showing up with an Incantatrix or Spelldancer who persists all spells.
2) I didn't make that stupid argument, someone else did, and then I called them stupid. I said that the very idea of punishing people for taking the feat by forcing them to play a shit character afterwords is unworkable garbage that no one can do, and then someone responded telling me that DMs can totally even punish you harder, and I, again, called that stupid. Because it is stupid.

If you keep attributing this idea that I want to punish players for taking item familiar to me, the person who's entire argument is that you can just get around the punishment for item familiar, then you are fucking dumb.

Holy shit. I have never met a more... scumbag of a person. never in my life have a seen someone who is as self centered as you. To attack two or more people because they don't have the same opinion as you. your view this whole time has been KNEEL TO MY POWER.

Says the person who's explicit point was that players should kneel and suck his mighty DM dick and be grateful for the privileged of tonguing his balls while he recites his novel.

OK LOOK The DM writes the story. you find fun and interesting ways through the story. If you are going to bitch and make it so everyone else has a worse time because you don't want to lose you precious OP character than your ass is out. This is a game that is meant to be fun for all NOT JUST FUN FOR YOU.

You are (still) an idiot. I specifically said "No one should be able to take Item Familiar, because of the way the game works, you can't punish someone later into sucking in return for them being better than everyone now." That is literally the exact opposite in every possible way of demanding that I be unable to lose my OP character. The entire point that you are still missing is that when one person has item familiar, they get to have fun at the expense of everyone else, and then when they lose the item familiar, they play a different character, because you can't make them suffer as punishment.

what makes me evil? what makes me a cancer on this world?

The part where you demanded that all players gratefully wallow in shit while you read your novel and tell them how the story is actually played, and that if you decide that one of them is going to suffer and suck, they just have to show up every week and not enjoy themselves for hours at a time and be grateful for the priledge of listening to your masterpiece novel about how their character is humiliated and then brutally murdered.