Crusader "tank" build @ level 12

[cjosephs1s]

Hey all.  First off any help is greatly appreciated.  This toon isn't perfect but I'm hoping he is "good" to start with.  I'd like to make him "great" though and with your expert knowledge I'm sure that can be obtained. 

The toon in question is a Crusader (ToB).  Its a straight 12 level build designed to use 1h reach weapon and shield and to be the brunt of the attacks against for all of the big bad guys he will have to fight so that the less durable types can do what they do best and not take the beating this guy will.  He also would like to take advantage of Attacks of Opportunity as much as possible (at least that's how he is currently built) as part of his strategy since he doesn't do a huge amount of weapon damage. 

I threw him together over the course of about 4 hours so I'm sure there are some mistakes but I dont' think they are critical ones so if you see them feel free to just let me know and I will do my best to correct them ASAP. 

Standard PHB Races

Ability scores start out with an average of 14 with nothing lower than 10 and only one 18 before adjustments.

Printed WotC sourced allowed and in case of duplicatation of 3.0 and 3.5 use 3.5 otherwise as printed in original source unless DM specifically rejects on case by case basis.

I dont' know what other classes will be played but its a party of 4 counting me. 

HP can be maxed every level with xp buy (so assume maxed HP every level).

We don't track weight as its just a headache.

I'm not sure what else you might need to know so just ask and I'll answer. 

Here's the link to the character sheet.  Some things that aren't crucial are left blank such as item weight, looks, ect.  Right now I'm worried about functional as the person wont' change. 

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=54694


I'm fairly knowledgable but don't know everything so if you would be so kind as if you have a suggestion as a feat, item, ability, or other change to also list what book its in so I can look it up (I think I have all the non campaign specific WotC books). 

Thank you all very much for your knowledge and wisdom.  Any questions you have please feel free to ask. 

[Solo]

And let me be the first to say welcome.

Advice: List maneuvers and stances in the spells known portion, accessible by checking the box under the skills list.

Also, you need Adaptive Style.

[cjosephs1s]

Ok..manuevers have been moved to spell list on left side..stances on right side. 

Adaptive style:  Ok while I see it can be important what feat would I push back to get this?  Also what the strategy when using this feat?  I could guess that when I've expended all of my manuevers?

[Solo]

Yes, that is very important as your default maneuver recovery method is random. Maybe put aside Power Attack?

[Lycanthromancer]

Why are you asking about cartoons?

[Tr011]

Spellfire Wielder from Magic of Faerun??? is kinda very OP.

[cjosephs1s]

Why are you asking about cartoons?

Sorry.  I say "toon" but it refers to character. 

Spellfire Wielder from Magic of Faerun??? is kinda very OP.

As for Spellfire wielder I don't have any of the Faerun books(I'll try to do some net searches to find out more about it) but I did see I would have to take it at 1st level so once again what feat would you remove/bump to gain this one?

[Rebel7284]

Have you considered ruby knight vindicator? It's one of the best prestige classes in the book.

[cjosephs1s]

Have you considered ruby knight vindicator? It's one of the best prestige classes in the book.

Nope..didn't look at any prestige classes or multiclassing options for the build.  Just went straight Crusader.  Like I said I put this guy together in about 4 hours and just wanted to get a "good" solid build to work with first before any improvements.  I can look at it and see how it is though.  I did notice that I would like a few more feats and if I carried it out to a 20 level build I would prefer to drop a few levels of Crusader for something else.  Teh last few levels don't really give a whole lot and if I can pick up a few levels (like 4 or 6 of something) I think the build would be a lot stronger especially if it gave some more feats or some cool abilities. 

I briefly glanced at it.  Its got its good and bad things for my build.  Mageslayer negates half of the casting levels (-4 caster level) so that's a huge loss of cleric spells and I really like mageslayer for shutting down casters.  Also Armored Stealth in my opinion is blah for an up front fighter type.  I don't need to be sneaky if I"m trying to get a monsters attention and I dont' think I have many manuevers that are boosts or counters so I dont' think it would be that useful unless I redid them all.  The +4 bonus and 1d10 damage is nice but its at level 9.  Maybe a 2 level dip would be nice just to get Divine recovery and 1 level dip in cleric? 

I think with maybe a different build than what I have gone with (something more cleric or paladin based?) it would be awesome but I'd have to completely redesign this character totally around this prestige class.  I'm not saying that's not an option but I'd like to mainly be a Crusader

[bruceleeroy]

RKV is a gish prestige class, not for tanks. As a tank, you're pigeonholing yourself into an ineffective role.

That being said, if you want to tank you'll want the deepwarden prestige class. Races of Stone, I believe.

The Kusari-Gama is a bad weapon, because you can't PA with it. There's a one handed reach weapon from ...fuck, Secrets of Sarlona? Is it the Spinning Sword? Something like that.

Oh for fuck's sake. I just read your feats. Goddamnit, you're doing it wrong. If you're going to be a tank, you have to give the enemy a reason to even pay attention to you. Hitting for 1d8 +9, you might as well be smiling and offering them blowjobs as they walk past you on their way to the real threat, the fucking wizard.

You need to look at the lockdown threads. They're in the Handbooks section. Here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=399.0

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you...?pg=1 {Old, but good reading}

I can't seem to find the lockdown handbooks within 5 minutes, so fuck it, go find it yourself, or maybe someone here will offer up a link.

Basically, if you can't force the enemy to pay attention to you through tripping, standstill, knockback, fear or some other method, you're fucking doing it wrong. 1d8 +9 is pathetic base damage at level 13, hell, at level 6, and your maneuvers aren't going to offset that by themselves. You can't power attack, you have no Hood tech, no lockdown... You're a fucking hireling, right now. A Town Guard, at best.

[cjosephs1s]

RKV is a gish prestige class, not for tanks. As a tank, you're pigeonholing yourself into an ineffective role.

That being said, if you want to tank you'll want the deepwarden prestige class. Races of Stone, I believe.

The Kusari-Gama is a bad weapon, because you can't PA with it. There's a one handed reach weapon from ...fuck, Secrets of Sarlona? Is it the Spinning Sword? Something like that.

Oh for fuck's sake. I just read your feats. Goddamnit, you're doing it wrong. If you're going to be a tank, you have to give the enemy a reason to even pay attention to you. Hitting for 1d8 +9, you might as well be smiling and offering them blowjobs as they walk past you on their way to the real threat, the fucking wizard.

You need to look at the lockdown threads. They're in the Handbooks section. Here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=399.0

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you...?pg=1 {Old, but good reading}

I can't seem to find the lockdown handbooks within 5 minutes, so fuck it, go find it yourself, or maybe someone here will offer up a link.

Basically, if you can't force the enemy to pay attention to you through tripping, standstill, knockback, fear or some other method, you're fucking doing it wrong. 1d8 +9 is pathetic base damage at level 13, hell, at level 6, and your maneuvers aren't going to offset that by themselves. You can't power attack, you have no Hood tech, no lockdown... You're a fucking hireling, right now. A Town Guard, at best.

Thanks for the "constructive" criticism...i think

I can change this guy 15 different ways.  I went with a shield for the "traditional" feel.  I can easily scrap the feats and take fighter progression feats and slap a Huge sized +2 Impact Greathammer on this guy and dish out 4d6++13 or more damage with 17-20x4 crits (Jovian for 3d6 +13 15-20x2 crits) but I give up reach and AoO to do some of that so I went with this weapon from a recommendation of a friend and its also noted in at least one of those handbooks (which all 3 have a different idea of what is good)  Add in PA and the damage is even higher.  But I tried not to just a build a "fighter".  I could have easily done that. 

And that spinning sword thing I would say is worse than the Kasuri-Gama as you get no STR bonus so are forced to you use PA thus making all your attacks much less effective to do the same damage. 

[Tr011]

Spellfire Wielder from Magic of Faerun??? is kinda very OP.

As for Spellfire wielder I don't have any of the Faerun books(I'll try to do some net searches to find out more about it) but I did see I would have to take it at 1st level so once again what feat would you remove/bump to gain this one?

Just cut that Improved Initiative. Indeed, it is a nice Feat and has it uses.... But I don't see:
1. Why you REALLY need to start the battle (you are no rogue that needs to sneak the flat-footed opponents before their turn).
2. That the +4 ini is really worth the Feat in your build. You should read a bit about the initiative and you can make some cheap +ini so you go still first (Armor spikes with +ini and that ring that let's you roll ini twice may already be enough).

I think your build will be better of with some uber-tanky feat than with Improved Initiative. Unluckily you got not much Con (needed for Spellfire Wielder and Steadfire Determination or whatever it is called from PHB2).

[Gavinfoxx]

You want reach with a two handed weapon to tank.  Might I suggest a polearm?

[bruceleeroy]

You're level 13. You use an animated shield, a two handed reach weapon that can trip, and do a metric-shit ton of damage, OR you get to look small in the pants next to the wizard's summoned creatures.

Yea. Right now, Your build is less relevant in a fight than a single round of the wizard's actions.

Look, I'm not one of those people who insist that mundane characters are completely useless in all respects. But the fact of the matter is that they can be useless if you don't build and play them correctly. The "traditional" sword and board fighter is simply not effective in DnD 3.5. A non-traditional sword and board fighter can be but fuck does it take some work.

A two-handing, battlefield control based martial character can be effective if played well. What you have now is a gimp.

[cjosephs1s]

You want reach with a two handed weapon to tank.  Might I suggest a polearm?

Well from my understanding polearms only work at reach and not in close quarters fighting (adjacent squares).  And while this is only a 12 level build at level 15 I would take a feat called Defensive Sweep (or at least was wanting to) which gives me an AoO against any adjacent creature that doesn't move that round.  So this feat combo and with a weapon that can strike adjacent creatures as well as have reach puts them in a no win situation for AoO with me.   I could go Spiked Chain? 2h with reach and still get adjacent attacks.  So weapon damage would be 2d6 + 12.  Average of about 60 damage per round base damage. 

Spellfire Wielder from Magic of Faerun??? is kinda very OP.

As for Spellfire wielder I don't have any of the Faerun books(I'll try to do some net searches to find out more about it) but I did see I would have to take it at 1st level so once again what feat would you remove/bump to gain this one?

Just cut that Improved Initiative. Indeed, it is a nice Feat and has it uses.... But I don't see:
1. Why you REALLY need to start the battle (you are no rogue that needs to sneak the flat-footed opponents before their turn).
2. That the +4 ini is really worth the Feat in your build. You should read a bit about the initiative and you can make some cheap +ini so you go still first (Armor spikes with +ini and that ring that let's you roll ini twice may already be enough).

I think your build will be better of with some uber-tanky feat than with Improved Initiative. Unluckily you got not much Con (needed for Spellfire Wielder and Steadfire Determination or whatever it is called from PHB2).

The purpose of improved Initiative was to try and get that extra edge to go first and get into position and get off a charge attack before anyone else.  Yes its not needed but I thought it would help.  I looked at Spellfire Wielder.  Its cool but there's no way my DM would allow it.  So its out.  Steadfast Deternmination is a good tanking feat but I'm feat starved as it is and to have to waste one on Endurance (this feat is horrible in my opinion.  Other than a drowning check we've never bothered with any of this stuff) just to get that is a hard sell. 

So I have no problem dropping Improv. INit.  Just need something to replace it. 

Also if the Spiked chain is more appropriate I can change that, and rework my shield to make it Animated so I still get the bonus.  Let me know. 

Speaking of AC bonus...how does my AC bonus look?  I was trying to get a good balance of still being able to be hit for Steely REsolve and Furious Counterstrike to be effective.  Its been a long time since I actually faced a monster of around my own CR to know

[littha]

Well from my understanding polearms only work at reach and not in close quarters fighting (adjacent squares).

They do, you can however attack adjacent targets with armor spikes/gauntlets or just 5' step away from them.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well from my understanding polearms only work at reach and not in close quarters fighting (adjacent squares). 

Just have a gauntlet or spiked gauntlet or spiked armor and familiarity with the rules of the 5' step, and your issues with 'polearms in melee' are 100% solved.  Or you could just wield a spiked chain.  Really, in general you will be able to make a 5' step, and for the 0.2% of times when you CAN'T do that, just attack with your armor spikes or your gauntlet or whatever.

[Endarire]

Hood.

I one-rounded everything level appropriate alone at level 6.  As a cohort.  Being 2 levels behind the party.