Pyromancer build

[RobbyPants]

I'm looking for suggestions on making a pyromancer in 3.5. I've made up a couple home-brew classes in the past, but I'm curious what can be done within the published materials.

Requirements:

• Figure builds for levels 5-10, or so. They can go higher, but it'd be nice to realize the concept somewhere in this range.
• Only lose zero or one caster levels.
• Able to do relatively decent blasting with fire spells (doesn't have to be Incantatrix-level uber blasting, but it'd be nice to actually have it worth casting a [fire] spell with a standard action in the right situation).
• Able to use other thematic spells. This could include lava spells, anything light or heat related, or smoke-related spells (think Stinking Cloud, Cloudkill, and/or Acid Fog reskinned as "smoke").
• Still has some general utility (So, things like Fly and Teleport would be fine to have in the build). It doesn't have to be just fire spells, but the PC should be able to throw a bunch of fire and fire-like (see above point) spells/abilities around a lot of the time.
  

Allowed materials:

• Core
• Unearthed Arcana races, classes, traits, flaws, and feats (basically, not the alternate systems).
• All Completes (except Complete Psionic)
• PHB II
• Spell Compendium
• Magic Item Compendium

What are your suggestions? I've never been all that good at math-hammering metamagic feats, but I guess I forsee something like MM stacking on something like Lesser Orb of Fire or Orb of Fire for my primary damage-dealing (particularly Lesser if the game is lower level). What's the best base class for this? The spell list is tight enough that it could theoretically be Sorcerer for the extra spells per day, but that costs a couple bonus feats before PrCs become available. I have no idea what (if any) PrCs make sense for this character. I know there's an Elemental Savant in CA that got nerfed pretty solidly form it's first printing in Tome & the Blood.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Personally  partial to an Erudite with the Discipline acf (the Evocation equal).
Chameleon Crafting feat from dr#349 to get
the magic mart -ish spells over, including divine.
Minor re-fluff'n'crunch on Energy Missile and Stun,
to be Fire Smoke Lava and Radiance only.
One of the obscure cpsi metamagic feats
provides little riders on those.
Hellfire alignment variation slight recrunch,
for later when resistances are problematic.

So then you've got the usual possible boosters up the Tiers scale.
RAI -> Raw -> RAW abusive.
How big's the local magic mart.
PsyRef tasteful to abusive.
Recharge hanging out in the background.

edit --- uh Core and UA triggered SRD response.  Is this an oops?

[Jackinthegreen]

Anything in this thread that you'd care for?  http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5590.20

[Keldar]

For a Pyromancer, without Sandstorm to grab Searing Spell, I'd probably look into Sanctified One of Kord (Complete Champion, p100).  It requires BAB +5 and costs a caster level.  But for that level, half your fire damage can be converted to divine, getting around that pesky, ubiquitous fire resistance/immunity.

[RobbyPants]

Personally  partial to an Erudite with the Discipline acf (the Evocation equal).

Sorry. I said all Completes and I totally forgot C Psi exists. I don't have that one, but I forgot to mention it. I've updated the OP.

For a Pyromancer, without Sandstorm to grab Searing Spell, I'd probably look into Sanctified One of Kord (Complete Champion, p100).  It requires BAB +5 and costs a caster level.  But for that level, half your fire damage can be converted to divine, getting around that pesky, ubiquitous fire resistance/immunity.

That's actually not that bad. The +2 to all saves makes the loss of the caster level much more palatable.

I was looking over Elemental Savant, and it's actually not as bad as I remember it. If you drop out by 4th level, you don't lose any caster levels. The biggest downside is the requirement to take Energy Substitution. That being said, are there any good non-[fire] spells that either do really nice damage and/or have really interesting rider effects with them? I've added the Spell Compendium to the list of available sources.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

My oops is bigger than your oops.

 

[nijineko]

pyrokinetic - it's in the SRD so you don't need the comp psi.

[RobbyPants]

pyrokinetic - it's in the SRD so you don't need the comp psi.

What do you mean? The only two things I can find in the SRD that come close are:

• The spell Pyrotechnics
  
• The psionic PrC Pyrokineticist
  

The PrC isn't a manifesting class and it doesn't gain much that would be useful for a fire-based caster. I could see making an interesting Rogue with Wild Talent or Psion 1 making good use of that class...

[Chemus]

Waste not a feat in wild talent; if going rogue, go Psychic Rogue!

I really like the flavor of the pyrokineticist, but it doesn't have... y'know... control flames. Pop Expanded Knowledge: Control Flames as your 6th level feat, and it might work...

[nijineko]

Waste not a feat in wild talent; if going rogue, go Psychic Rogue!

I really like the flavor of the pyrokineticist, but it doesn't have... y'know... control flames. Pop Expanded Knowledge: Control Flames as your 6th level feat, and it might work...

i think the designers figured that whatever entry option one used would gain access to control flames and similar. still a very valid point - should either be a pre-req or a class feature - or a class feature that expands or augments control over flames.

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, on a side note, that pyrokinetisist class is almost good enough as a stand-alone class for a non-caster class. Just a few tweaks at some of the levels and it'd be pretty good. Not as good as a full-caster, but good enough that the PC could contribute.

I with WotC created a few dozen classes like that, so you could PrC out of your mundane class as it was reaching the end of its shelf life.

[Chemus]

Yeah, sorry for the derail.

Arcane Theses could be handy...Cooperative spell and Energy Substitution each allow 1 more MM for the AT spell(s), Sanctum spell does too, but it lowers effective spell level (there's a trick there), and some MM's are 'free'. Blistering Spell (+1, so free for AT, +2 damage per spell level, minor debuff), Sculpt (New area type for area spell), and Transdimensional (affects incorp, ethereal, extradimensional each fully) stand out, outside Core. Additionally, Split ray and Explosive spells are reduced to +1.

The dirty trick for Sanctum Spell: sanctum spell + arcane fusion = infinite lvl1 or lower spells
sanctum spell + greater arcane fusion = infinite lvl4 or lower spells

This takes into account mm feats on each spell. Each of them.

You need Rapid Metamagic, or Rapid spell to pull it off, but if you do, you could have a lvl 1 or 4 Arcane Thesis blast cast as many times as you like. Possibly a great use of a 5th or 8th slot.

Consider Wu Jen (Bonus MM feat at 1st), and a Spell Secret, Elemental Mastery. Downsides are a small expanded list.

Magical Trickster (CSc) gets a bonus MM feat, plus 2/3 levels count toward another class's abilities. Mage of the Arcane Order can help with spontaneous spells when you really need 'em... and the Trickster could advance it a couple levels

Evocation Focused Specialist, Master Specialist...might shoehorn you too much...

Consider sorcerer with Arcane Preparation feat (CArc) to get into MotAO, and mitigate MM speed costs. Though Rapid Spell (CDiv) should fix that nicely on any Arcane Theses you have.

[RobbyPants]

Arcane Theses could be handy...
Additionally, Split ray and Explosive spells are reduced to +1.

Do you know of any good [fire] rays to split? The only one coming to mind is Scorching Ray, and I thought that Split Ray only applied to one of the rays when you cast it.

Consider Wu Jen (Bonus MM feat at 1st), and a Spell Secret, Elemental Mastery. Downsides are a small expanded list.

I haven't looked at Wu Jen in a very long time. I'm curious to take a peek at it again, now.

Evocation Focused Specialist, Master Specialist...might shoehorn you too much...

Agreed. I'd be more prone to go in as a Focused Conjurer. Lesser Orb of Fire, Wall of Smoke, Incendiary Slime, Stinking Cloud, Orb of Fire, and Cloudkill are all Conjuration and are extremely thematic and useful. I may or may not keep Evocation. Fireball is pretty iconic and great for clearing mooks, but if I have to drop three schools, I have to pick carefully.

I could probably drop Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy for being too far off the theme. I'd miss the spells, but this PC is somewhat of a thought exercise.

Consider sorcerer with Arcane Preparation feat (CArc) to get into MotAO, and mitigate MM speed costs. Though Rapid Spell (CDiv) should fix that nicely on any Arcane Theses you have.

I'm relatively familiar with all of these, and should give them a peek.


Thanks for all of the suggestions!

[RobbyPants]

On a related note: lets say I got stuck playing this character at around level 3 and wanted something fire-related to do every round.

The first thing I can think of is that Fire Burst reserve feat. I know it's a pretty craptastic feat and you can't take it until 3rd level unless you use Precocious Apprentice shenanigans. That being said, is there any way to improve the output of the feat (damage, range, and/or area)?

Are there any other low-level options you can think of that would involve throwing at-will fire damage around at range that is at least as good as me defaulting to using my crossbow?

[phaedrusxy]

Frank's Firemage is not allowed?

[Chemus]

On a related note: lets say I got stuck playing this character at around level 3 and wanted something fire-related to do every round.

The first thing I can think of is that Fire Burst reserve feat. I know it's a pretty craptastic feat and you can't take it until 3rd level unless you use Precocious Apprentice shenanigans. That being said, is there any way to improve the output of the feat (damage, range, and/or area)?

Are there any other low-level options you can think of that would involve throwing at-will fire damage around at range that is at least as good as me defaulting to using my crossbow?

If heightened spells count for you to be 'able to cast 2nd level spells', and depending on how you consider stacking on feat effects, go (focused) conjuror, get Metamagic school focus: cnj, get Firey Burst, get heighten, forget Precocious. Heighten Blades of fire to 4th with all 3 uses of mmsf on it. Firey burst for 4d6/rd. Couldn't find cnj 2nd lv fire spell...if you can, and took precocious apprentice for it, you'd get 5d6. At 1st level, not 3rd.

Dunno about a way to get longer range... Horizon goggles (oops, no MIC). Remember that it's a (Su) ability, so no AoO, Not interruptible, and no SR.

[edit2]If the above trick is allowed, get a fire elemental with the Summon Elemental reserve feat and heightened summon monster I. PA merely gets you  5r duration instead of 4r, with a 2nd level slot at lvl 1. Since MMSF doesn't have a minimum spell level clause, if you got Sanctum Spell, Energy substitution: Fire, or Cooperative Spell (+0 -1 = -1), the blades of fire could be heightened to 3rd from a 0-level slot, if your first level slots matter to you. -1d6 damage, but 3d6 at will from a 0-level spell slot.[/edit2]

[RobbyPants]

Frank's Firemage is not allowed?

That's not a problem. I've made my own, largely based on it.

This is more of a thought exercise to see what I can actually do with the books I own without any home brew.

If heightened spells count for you to be 'able to cast 2nd level spells', and depending on how you consider stacking on feat effects, go (focused) conjuror, get Metamagic school focus: cnj, get Firey Burst, get heighten, forget Precocious. Heighten Blades of fire to 4th with all 3 uses of mmsf on it. Firey burst for 4d6/rd. Couldn't find cnj 2nd lv fire spell...if you can, and took precocious apprentice for it, you'd get 5d6. At 1st level, not 3rd.

That could work pretty well. I'm not sure I could get 4d6 past most DMs, but I know the guy I play with most often wouldn't bat an eye at 2d6.

Dunno about a way to get longer range... Horizon goggles (oops, no MIC). Remember that it's a (Su) ability, so no AoO, Not interruptible, and no SR.

Sorry, I forgot to add MIC to the list. I've added it to the OP. The goggles would be a viable option.

I remember it being a Su ability with no SR/AoO/ASF, and I remember liking that. Of course, with it not being a SLA, I knew my options would be limited. A lot of the monster feats that apply to SLAs would be useless for this.

[Chemus]

Aaaaand I spoke before looking. Again.

Horizon Goggles (CMag) "grant you the benefits of the Far Shot feat (increases range increment of projectile weapons by 50%, and of thrown weapons by 100%). These goggles also increase the range of spells and spell-like abilities that require ranged attack rolls by 50%"

Useless for this. Sorry. 10th level Souleater (BoVD) increases DCs by 2, can you fit that into the build?

[edit]Empower, enlarge, extend, or widen (Su) Abil are all in ToM, and only 1/day but can stack  [/edit]

[zugschef]

There is a prc called silver pyromancer in an eberron book. It loses a caster level though.

[Jackinthegreen]

Silver Pyromancer is found in Five Nations, page 150.  It's annoying to get into though:

Lawful Good
Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks
3rd level arcane spells
Turn Undead

About the only truly useful thing it gets is the ability to turn a fire damage spell into half fire, half irresistible divine damage at 2nd level.  At 5th level it can be turned into fully divine and irresistible.  There's also the Purge Undead ability which uses a Turning attempt to deal 1d6 points of damage per cleric level to all undead within 30 feet, and this ability treats your effective cleric level as your normal cleric level plus your arcane caster level.  Undead can make a Will save for half damage.

Could be used with a bonkers arcane caster level to destroy a bunch of undead through pure damage.