Author Topic: Break and Rate my Sorcerer!  (Read 4345 times)

Offline Endarire

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Break and Rate my Sorcerer!
« on: May 26, 2015, 03:36:48 AM »
Greetings, all!

I know it's homebrew.  I wanted optimizers' opinions on how to break the Fun, Powerful Sorcerer (FPS) - yes, that's its official name, and, yes, this is a serious class unlike the Lightning Warrior - based on its class features.  Yes, the FPS is powerful, and based on my comparisons, approximately as powerful as a Wizard/Incantatrix/Archmage of equal primary casting attribute (CHA for the FPS, INT for the Wizard).  Yes, this FPS is meant to coexist in the same party and world as the other current classes, such as Wizard, Cleric, Archivist, Artificer, Psion, and Druid.

I've wanted to like Sorcerers since 3.0, maybe early 3.5.  (I played a Human Sorcerer on DDO from level 1 to the then-level cap of 28.  I tolerated it more than I wanted and liked it less than I wanted.)  In their current form, even considering all official splat, the 3.5 Sorcerer's best ability is 'ahead of the curve' casting via White Dragonspawn, Dragonwrought, etc.

I go into much more detail in the intro tab of this revision document.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Break and Rate my Sorcerer!
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2015, 04:46:42 PM »
Good job.  Trying to push Sorc into Tier 1, eh?

It's looks like one of your edits of the Common page, got biffed a little in the middle.

Lots and lots of options, for sure.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Endarire

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Re: Break and Rate my Sorcerer!
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2015, 06:23:59 PM »
ADMG: I'm fixing what WotC left broken.

What do you mean by 'biffed'?  I'm reading this page at 1280x1024 resolution.

Offline Solo

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Re: Break and Rate my Sorcerer!
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2015, 09:26:33 PM »
Il est ridicule!
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline Endarire

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Re: Break and Rate my Sorcerer!
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2015, 11:21:35 PM »
Solo: I'm looking for more detail here.  How?  Why?

How does this Sorcerer compare to a 3.5 'ahead of the curve' Sorcerer - that is, a Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold (possibly with White Dragonspawn and later with the LA bought off) Sorcerer with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage?

Offline Solo

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Re: Break and Rate my Sorcerer!
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2015, 02:10:54 PM »
Solo: I'm looking for more detail here.

To be honest, while being a spell level behind suckef in comparison, I always felt the issue was a lack if interesting class features and a meaningful mechanical difference outside of spontanious casting.

I'd be happy to look over it in detail later, but your formatting isnt displaying well on the spreadsheet on my phone. Let me get to a computer this evening.
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline Solo

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Re: Break and Rate my Sorcerer!
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2015, 09:51:14 PM »
Looking at class features.

I see the changes you made to casting. Not sure free Heighten Spell is necessary. Save DCs being low wasn't a problem with the sorcerer, iirc.

Relearning spells after a rest fixes the versatility problem, but it feels inelegant. Can't come up with a much better idea, though. Maybe I'm just being overly critical.

Charismatic Arcana is good. Charismatic Will is good.

Draconic Sorcery I'm not so hot on. I'm not a fan of every sorcerer having powers because their ancester boinked a dragon. Other heritage options would be good, or even being a walking nexus of arcane power. I'm reminded of the Pathfinder bloodlines.

Versatile spellcaster is good.

Common Arcana:

To be honest, I'm not sure of the need for adaptive metamagic; it's powerful, but it's not fixing a flaw with the sorcerer. (Aside from the systematic problem that choosing feats entails.) That being said, it would be interesting for a Sorcerer to be to metamagic what a Wizard is to spells. (In which case, another strike against allowing a sorcerer to repick his spells with a night's rest.)

Armored metamagic is useful for a gish build.

Bonus metamagic feat? *Smacks Endarire on the head.* Get back to work and come up with something creative.

Day of Sorcery's wording needs work; it is far too clunky. My suggestion: When you cast a Sorcerer spell with a duration of at least 10 minutes per caster level, you may spend an extra spell slot of that spell level to increase the duration from 10 minutes per caster level to 1 hour per caster level for one additional spell slot, or from 1 hour per caster level to one day for one additional spell slot. You may increase the duration of a spell twice, such as from 10 minutes per caster level to one day, by spending two spell slots.

I have perused the ability called Extrapersonal Metamagic, and I must say that you need to pare down the dense verbiage on this ability, for its superfluous words and descriptors make the meaning of the text difficult to discern for the reader. Verily, gleaning the mechanics of the ability was not at all aided by the phraseology!

Metamagic Improvisation: This ability makes swapping out metamagic feats and gaining a boatload of them through bonus feats unnecessary. I'd rather have this than just gaining bonus metamagic feats, though. It's more interesting. (Maybe tack on a scaling spellcraft check to accomplish? What can I say, I'm a gambling man.)

Recurrant Conversation: I like this idea better than swapping out spells known after a night's rest. How does the emulation deal with spells that are much lower on some lists than others?

Slow Sorcery: Maybe call it Channeled Sorcery? Sounds better.

Sorcerous Conversion: Seems kinda similar to Recurrant Sorcery. I'd cut one or the other.

High Arcana:

Charismatic Defense: Not terribly useful at the level it comes into play. Especially because sorcerers will all be using Ruin Delver's Fortune.

Triple Swap: You know my feelings on this.

Vastly Expanded Sorcery: A little unsure about this, due to the aforementioned ability to pull spells from other lists.

Finally, the most odious, objectionable, and damming mistake you've made: you have given the sorcerer a familiar, which is a clear powergaming move that sacrifices flavor for power. Shame on you.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 09:54:54 PM by Solo »
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline Endarire

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Re: Break and Rate my Sorcerer!
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2015, 07:41:41 PM »
Version 1.4
-Nerfed Spell Power (High Arcana) to a flat +1 caster level and +1 DC.
-Tweaked Arcane Ray (High Arcana) to be usable at will for 5d6 damage with the ability to invest a single Sorcerer spell slot for +2d6 damage per slot level.
-Nerfed Living Arcana's (High Arcana) duration to 1 round per Sorcerer level.  The ability now requires a swift action to activate and an immediate action to deactivate.
-Fixed bugs, but that's not why you're here.
-I added a general rule to the Sorcerer section (before the Class Features section) about the required action and side effects of investing extra spell slots to fuel Sorcerer stuff.
-Nerfed Sorcerous Conversion to be usable 2/day (down from 3).  It can only convert spells from other arcane classes, such as Wu Jen and Bard.
-Removed Sorcerous Conversion.  The ability to spend spell slots to cast from -any- spell list is probably an Epic ability.  (Yes, Epic!)
-Added Previously Personal Sorcery (Common Arcana).
-Sorcerer-granted spell-like abilities can be affected by metamagic feats, but not by feats that only affect SLA, like Quicken Spell-like Ability.  (Balance reasons.)
-Extrapersonal Metamagic (Common Arcana) is now 2 separate Common Arcana, Ongoing Metamagic and Synchronized Metamagic.
-Added a Credits section.

Offline Endarire

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Re: Break and Rate my Sorcerer!
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2015, 10:21:50 PM »
Solo: Draconic Sorcery exists so non-Dragonblood/Dragon type Sorcerers can get the full benefit from Sorcerer spells.  No other official class has this situation in 3.5 to my knowledge.

Offline Solo

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Re: Break and Rate my Sorcerer!
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2015, 10:31:14 PM »
Solo: Draconic Sorcery exists so non-Dragonblood/Dragon type Sorcerers can get the full benefit from Sorcerer spells.  No other official class has this situation in 3.5 to my knowledge.
Ok.

Now, why is this necessary?
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Break and Rate my Sorcerer!
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2015, 01:24:27 AM »
Solo: Draconic Sorcery exists so non-Dragonblood/Dragon type Sorcerers can get the full benefit from Sorcerer spells.  No other official class has this situation in 3.5 to my knowledge.
Ok.

Now, why is this necessary?

The only reasoning for that I can come up with is some spells only work for characters with the dragonblood type.  Going through Captnq's EVD, I found only 24 spells that grant a bonus to or require the caster to have the dragon or dragonblood (sub)types.  How many hundreds of spells are available to the sorcerer otherwise?  I do not think the dragon theme is necessary at all.

While it might be the strongest type-dependent things for spells beyond the humanoid-only crap, it just doesn't feel like it has a place as a full class feature for such a varied class as the sorcerer.  DFAs get away with the dragonblood stuff because the entire class is about dragons.  Sorcerers are not, and should not be held only to that one thing even if it is technically a buff all around.

My suggestion would be instead of having dragon be the only bloodline or whatever, give options like Pathfinder and even 3.5 do.  Let the player choose their path instead of forcing it on them.  The dragonblood spells are not such a significant part of the system that all sorcerers need access to them.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 01:27:28 AM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline Endarire

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Re: Break and Rate my Sorcerer!
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2015, 03:50:40 AM »
1.6 is up!

v1.6: June 5, 2015
-Changed Expanded Sorcery and Vastly Expanded Sorcery (High Arcana) to allow switching spell levels within range.  Read the full descriptions for more ideas.
-Added the Common Arcana Extra Expanded Sorcery.  It's another floating spell known for those who pick it!
-Fixed the wording on Metamagic Improvisation (Common Arcana) to remove references to Extrapersonal Metamagic, an ability which has been split into 2 abilities and renamed!
-Did some other minor bug fixing and cleaning.
-Added DeAnno to the credits.  His idea of floating spell levels for Expanded Arcana, upon reflection, just makes -sense!-
-Made it unmistakably clear that Eschew Material Components also applies to focuses of 1GP or less
-Sorcerers can now, by rules as written, learn and cast Corrupt spells (Book of Vile Darkness) and Sanctified spells (Book of Exalted Deeds).

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Break and Rate my Sorcerer!
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2015, 12:18:54 PM »
Sorcerer Fix: Allow casting monsters to start at level 1 with full HD/caster progression tables.
Annnnnnd that pretty much does it.



* Metamagic's affecting casting time is one of the Sorcerers strengths once he has Arcane Spellsurge. You're better off with an X/day thing.
* Eschew Materials is a given, if boring, addition that many people ignore for a few copper anyway.
* Charisma Arcane is a nice mechanical ability but it's a terrible story ability. Consider reluffing to something like Bardic Knowledge: The Sorcerer's social tendencies has led to a lot of splattered knowledge of the arcane world.
* Dragon Sorcerer is out, and taking things a step further all bloodlines are stupid anyway. You'll be tempted to go will if you dislike dragon call if Fey. Well Warlock already does that, and hell of a lot better too. The goal is to be unique, not a human totally inferior to monster races.
* Versatile Sorcery is Versatile Spellcasting except CAr/FAQ prevents the Feat from being used due to early entry because it's not a Class Feature, yours is a Class Feature and thus not governed by that allowing you to violate your statement of intent against faster progression.
* Bonus Feat, when in doubt copy the Wizard because that's unique.
* Common Arcane, when in doubt copy Pathfinder because that's unique.
* Just kidding I mean here is a f'ing book for native Class Options to trap you into indecision and intimidate you into playing another Class. KISS man, streamline things.