Author Topic: Shadow Monk Villain (Need Build Advice)  (Read 7529 times)

Offline M@xim

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Shadow Monk Villain (Need Build Advice)
« on: June 04, 2015, 10:28:12 PM »
Greetings..
 
I'm starting a campaign and I want to create some minions for my main villains. I am looking for the most effective build based on this concept-

Essentials-
-Pop out of nowhere at random times
-Travel together in groups of 3-5
-Strong enough that a min/maxed party of adventurers at level 8 have a hard time defeating even one, but not overkill. Ideally, the adventurers can stand toe to toe with them by level 12, but they'll definitely know to run away after 1 encounter at level 8..
-Starting stats point buy

Random Possibilities-
MC to Warlock and/or Rogue for Devil Sight/Magical Darkness Combo etc.
Aarakocra race for natural flight to make their extreme movement even better


I've read various threads on different builds, but given the above.. there should be a preferable build.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Shadow Monk Villain (Need Build Advice)
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2015, 03:53:40 PM »
Wellll ... it depends:
on how much work you want to make for yourself.

The MM and DMG together have "suggestions"
(once upon a time these were called rules)
on how to build your more memorable bad guys.

The Mooks otoh, are merely cannon fodder
to find out how capable the party is.  It's a classic
motivation for the BBEG, to find out what he's got
to throw at a challenger.

Send out 1 CR 7 quick'n'dirty underling.
See how long it takes for the party to toast him.
Then repeat the process with 1 CR 8,
and 1 CR 9 , etc , until you find the:  near TPK
to "oh that fight was really hard and awesome"
ratio (!) that works for you and your group.
Only after that, do you throw the BBEG(s) at them.
Those are the builds that take time and work.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline sambojin

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Re: Shadow Monk Villain (Need Build Advice)
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2015, 07:16:52 PM »
Some things can just be DM hand waved. How do these guys shadow step with zero monk levels or teleportation spells? I don't know. Maybe they're a cult of fighters that specifically learn that. Maybe they've researched a very cool version of expeditious retreat. Maybe they had a long lasting spell cast on them all, one that you'll never be able to learn. Maybe they have magic rings that disintegrate on their death.

DMs don't have to stick to the rules to utilize plot devices or make encounters happen. It's a well known fact.

So make the super mooks however you want, of any class. They just come with teleport entrance/exit and maybe a jump spell (and climb and swim spell) cast on them, that they always have running, on top of anything else.

They come in, they say Muhahaha!, they bounce around while smacking the party about, then they tele out. It's what they do. They learnt how to do this because they're evil or something. No actual character levels needed to do so.

It frees up your creativity options on making super mooks however you want. Add a reason if you want to, but you don't have to. Your heroes may be super, but they're vanilla. They're "balanced". They don't know everything, can't do everything the villain can, and will never be able to in many cases.

Your encounters and the creatures you use don't follow exactly the same balance rules that the players do. They don't need to. They'll still be fun and challenging.

Nothing about teleport/shadow step changes the CR of an encounter. Nor will permanent jump/climb/swim. If anything, it gives you the ability to end the encounter when you want. So design away.....
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 07:21:39 PM by sambojin »

Offline sambojin

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Re: Shadow Monk Villain (Need Build Advice)
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2015, 07:48:34 PM »
For a slightly more specific answer, how's about this:

Fighter (BM) 5, Bard (Lore) 7
Highish dex and charisma. Highish everything. They rolled well and have an ASI.
They get a feat. Give them something combaty if you want (or see below).
Has whatever (up to level 4 spells) you want due to lore bard. They also probably have Magical Initiate, so seriously, anything. Has Guidance/Resistance/Healing Word from this.
Has whatever superiority manoeuvres are fun to use against the party.
Comes with a +1 Longbow, that can only be attuned to people of the BBEG's cult.
Come in with inspiration die all used on each other. Probably guidance too. Will liberally throw them at each other if necessary. You will not get the drop on them, and they begin an encounter highly resistant and skillful.

They also have teleport entrance/exit, that they can cast on each other within 60'. You can give them Jump/climb/swim if you need to (it's their fighting form), but it's probably not necessary. They can be any race, so basic darkvision can be taken care of, or flight. Other than that, they're by the books.

Always travel in packs of 3-5.

Very, very versatile as a villain. Has whatever you particularly feel you need, can fight a bit, can mage a bit, can get themselves in and out of situations with Action Surge, Guidance/Resistance/Healing Word, teleport and superiority/inspiration die. Not OP, not instant death, not even using their full potential early on. Can come in pre-buffed if required (possibly off someone else's concentration). Probably about a CR 8-9 ish individually, but about CR12(+?) in a group of 3-5. Those superiority/inspiration die and a bit of basic spell casting lets them do basically anything. First encounter, 1 of them vs the party with the others just doing support. Then get more of them actually fighting.

The evil cult college of fighting muhaha bards. The Baddies. Anything, Anywhere, Anytime. At any CR as well, because they're a quadratic support party. Use more magic or combat or more Baddies actively as needed. You can personalize each Baddie, or just leave a few known slots free or maybe a manoeuvre open on a couple of them, and pencil them in when needed.

Then it's not hand wavy. You may not have previously specified, they may have done a bit of extra research and training between encounters, but they've got it. Honestly.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 10:57:14 PM by sambojin »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Shadow Monk Villain (Need Build Advice)
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2015, 11:45:31 AM »
Dark Moon Invisible Fist Broken One Monk 7 / Binder(naberius) 1 with Ritual of Shadow Walking, Caduceus Bracers, and a scaled-to-desired-level wand of greater mighty wallop.

It has Total-Concealment, tracking, reusable teleportation, self-healing, and easily scaled damage.

Offline M@xim

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Re: Shadow Monk Villain (Need Build Advice)
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2015, 01:46:20 PM »
Doesn't sound like 5e :P

Great ideas.. I was looking for more of actual build.  I know as a DM I can make up stuff, but I think the ShadowMonkLock is strong enough by itself that it isn't really necessary. I just wanted to see what the most optimized build and race would be heh.

Offline sambojin

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Re: Shadow Monk Villain (Need Build Advice)
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2015, 07:14:50 PM »
Oh, ummm, ok.

Do you mind putting 3 levels of assassin rogue in the build? The initial damage surge will scare the hell out of an initial party, and makes the goodies REALLY take your guys seriously. It'll put them on the back foot and require a fair bit of team coordination to stop the bsfs going down. Which is what you want.

But anyway, here's a basic Shadow Monk/Warlock build. It's long.

(click to show/hide)

Plus points: Has shadow step, devil's sight, ki darkness, invisibility, hex etc. So the cover of darkness thing is cool, and can hit pretty hard against its hexed target.
Everyone comes with an Imp for more invisible shenanigans. Can sub out voice of the chainmaster if you want, but lets you proxy a proxied badguy. Also helps with anti-flight and "how did they know we were here?" complaints. Invisible imps, that's how.
Can run up walls and stuff with decent movement. Ki dash etc is possible. Can sub in expeditious retreat as a spell if movement becomes a problem, but competes for bonus punches and hexes.
Mirror image and armour of agathys desquishifies them a bit.
Patron can be changed to whatever. They're not actually meant to kill anyone.
Imps use shortbows too. They learnt how to from the shadow mooks. There's no reason for them not to be able to.
Could restat them as aarakroca if you're really worried about people just flying/running away.
Was a 27pt stat buy, incidentally.

I personally think they're a bit weak. Give me assassin stab or BM die any day. Or a group of muhaha bards. But if you're set on shadow monklock, there it is. You can swap Charisma for Wisdom if you'd like, but mostly your spells are cast on yourself, so spell stats aren't a huge issue. As good as I can come up with for now anyway, with all the stuff you wanted.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 08:23:29 PM by sambojin »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Shadow Monk Villain (Need Build Advice)
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2015, 11:45:36 AM »
Doesn't sound like 5e :P
So... It turns out this is the 5E area and someone didn't catch that.  :-\

So uh, how's the weather?

Offline M@xim

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Re: Shadow Monk Villain (Need Build Advice)
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2015, 03:56:16 PM »
Oh, ummm, ok.

Do you mind putting 3 levels of assassin rogue in the build? The initial damage surge will scare the hell out of an initial party, and makes the goodies REALLY take your guys seriously. It'll put them on the back foot and require a fair bit of team coordination to stop the bsfs going down. Which is what you want.

But anyway, here's a basic Shadow Monk/Warlock build. It's long.

(click to show/hide)

Plus points: Has shadow step, devil's sight, ki darkness, invisibility, hex etc. So the cover of darkness thing is cool, and can hit pretty hard against its hexed target.
Everyone comes with an Imp for more invisible shenanigans. Can sub out voice of the chainmaster if you want, but lets you proxy a proxied badguy. Also helps with anti-flight and "how did they know we were here?" complaints. Invisible imps, that's how.
Can run up walls and stuff with decent movement. Ki dash etc is possible. Can sub in expeditious retreat as a spell if movement becomes a problem, but competes for bonus punches and hexes.
Mirror image and armour of agathys desquishifies them a bit.
Patron can be changed to whatever. They're not actually meant to kill anyone.
Imps use shortbows too. They learnt how to from the shadow mooks. There's no reason for them not to be able to.
Could restat them as aarakroca if you're really worried about people just flying/running away.
Was a 27pt stat buy, incidentally.

I personally think they're a bit weak. Give me assassin stab or BM die any day. Or a group of muhaha bards. But if you're set on shadow monklock, there it is. You can swap Charisma for Wisdom if you'd like, but mostly your spells are cast on yourself, so spell stats aren't a huge issue. As good as I can come up with for now anyway, with all the stuff you wanted.

Thanks for your help this looks great, I would be interested in your rogue assassin level additions as well. Did you use a character builder/generator for this? I like how it's laid out (nice and concise) .

Offline sambojin

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Re: Shadow Monk Villain (Need Build Advice)
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2015, 05:16:44 PM »
Yeah. I used pathguy's character generator. It sort of got removed and then reinstated with only the basic rules content (which are apparently ok).

You can find it here:
http://www.pathguy.com/ddnext.htm

Or the ACTUAL version (unchopped down) here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20141021032705/http://www.pathguy.com/ddnext.htm

It's a bit old (no new EE or UA stuff), but it's good. Thank god for the wayback machine (plus I have a saved copy of the site anyway). I recommend everyone saves a copy of it, just in case. It works locally through its javacript, so it's great on phones/tablets when you're out of internet juice.

Just be sure you select every option it wants you to. This includes shield/armour (none is a choice) and languages. Otherwise things get messed up.

I hope Pathguy accidentally gets the full updated page cached by The Wayback Machine one day. If only because as an non-profit archive service they have a fair use exclusion from copyright claims. And sometimes accidents happen.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 05:56:34 PM by sambojin »

Offline NumberKruncher

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Re: Shadow Monk Villain (Need Build Advice)
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2015, 12:47:54 AM »
If you want to make the enemies more of a challenge, but insist on using point buy for their stats, I'd suggest gauntlets of ogre power and headbands of intellect being mixed in with some of them.

It's decent treasure for your party around that level, as a matter of fact, many party members may have "outgrown" these items by that level.
Dwarf FTW.

Offline sambojin

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Re: Shadow Monk Villain (Need Build Advice)
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2015, 04:57:17 AM »
Urrrrgh..... F**k NO!

The fact that something exists, and every goddamn build wants it, doesn't mean it should be on the table as a giveable.

A way of restatting badguys? Yep. It disintegrates on their death and can't be attuned to unless the player is a member of the BBEG's cult and literally is his "play toy".

Otherwise, nope. Why? Why the f**k are 3-5 of these proxy muhaha's carrying one of the "gimme" items of 5e?

Nup. They're not. You can't even use their +1 weapons. Not even if you lube up for potential badguy love.

(Yes. It's a challenge to make badguys that can "do stuff" fairly well under the class "rules". Actually, it isn't. There's two examples above. Shadow Monklock and Fighting Muhaha Bard. There's heaps more.
It gets "normal" to minmax with 20 character levels of BS for character builds. It's quite interesting to design a challenge as stated above, even with some DM fiat included, far under level 20 ASIs. What's challenging to a minmaxed party? As recurring, slightly levelled power, proxy Villains? All using the same rules your own heroes do.
 
I'm probably going to personalize the Muhahas just so I've got 5 secondary baddies on call for anything. Add flavour for campaign to taste.

It seems Fighter (BM) 6/Bard (Lore) 6 is the most "powerful" vanilla muhaha villain group. One more ASI for the loss of lvl 4 spells. But as soon as you have the tough guy, the two support guys and the two mage guys, it all gets very different. Thus 5 shadow monklocks or vanilla muhahas.)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 05:44:43 AM by sambojin »

Offline NumberKruncher

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Re: Shadow Monk Villain (Need Build Advice)
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2015, 12:59:44 PM »
My point was to only add these items if your warriors already naturally have an 18 STR, essentially making it a weak treasure.
Dwarf FTW.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Shadow Monk Villain (Need Build Advice)
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2015, 03:58:42 PM »
Mellored posted a level 11 Monk dex 20 w/ Alert feat
for a very short lived PvP thread back at wotc.
Assume that build can Stun and near kill any 1 PC.
That's only 1 guy, against a party it's got to run.

Doesn't sound like 5e :P
So... It turns out this is the 5E area and someone didn't catch that.  :-\

So uh, how's the weather?

 :D ... cast  "Detect Weather"

 >:( ... That's not 5e either (harrumph)

 :fu ... uhh Perform Hippy Dippy Weatherman check

 :??? ... you get Disadvantage on the check
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline sambojin

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Re: Shadow Monk Villain (Need Build Advice)
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2015, 05:22:02 PM »
Wow, wasn't I drunk last night? Lol. Sorry for the language.

My point stands though. The gauntlets would immediately go to whoever didn't have st19+, the headband likewise for int. Unless you pull a "you can't attune to that", in which case you may as well have just given the baddies high st/int in the first place.