General Discussion

[Shadowmind]

Far as I know, four people is the maximum regardless of feats and class features. Feel free to ask about that though. More the merrier, right?

Unless the rules have changed you also get the full number of Avatars. Since there are 1/2 of the HD/Class levels of the Deity, I haven't found much use for them except for contributing to epic spells since they don't come with equipment.

[Tshern]

In any case, I am quite certain I know how to reach Dispater, I know how to kill Dispater and I know how to avoid all his minions. So far I have not considered any custom abilities, spells or items, which probably would make this easier.

Edit: I am not saying that the other challengers are bad optimisers or have bad ideas. That is definitely not my point. I do have some insight about playing Dispater though and that is what I am going to utilise if I ever try this challenge.

I am curious what you plan is to find/reach Dispater. That was the one part I was missing in my non-epic Ardent theoretical attempt.

I shall disclose this secret to someone who will accept my terms. That is, assuming we are not the first ones to try this under TravelLog, we do not try at all. That is harsh, but I explained my reasoning before. Sorry if that sounds rude.

Far as I know, four people is the maximum regardless of feats and class features. Feel free to ask about that though. More the merrier, right?

Unless the rules have changed you also get the full number of Avatars. Since there are 1/2 of the HD/Class levels of the Deity, I haven't found much use for them except for contributing to epic spells since they don't come with equipment.

That could be. Sorry, I have not thought of the avatar rules for a while, so I was quoting old rules from my memory.

Ah, an old classic.

My plan is quite not as sophisticated, but I think it will work better. No intention of questioning your optimisation skills there, but I am just trying to take away most of the variables. Therefore I planned it with no custom abilities, no more than four characters and minimal amount of resources. Everything else I may stack on top of that is just gravy.

Heh, Epic spells is hardly optimization. It's mostly, imagine what you wanna do, find out how much spellcraft this spell has, divide by 17 and use that number of 9th level slots on it.

Fill those slots with leadership/thrallherd-dom.

Another reason I wanted all preparation to be done in less than 30 minutes was the fact that my idea for a god was something that it would be funny if there was a new god who came into being 30 minutes ago and suddenly was so powerful it could fight just about anything.

Epic spells are most definitely optimisation. Not the kind I frown upon though, but still optimisation. My challengers are by no means against custom spells, SDAs and whatnot, I simply decided to plan them before those. That way they can probbaly do what I want them to and then supplement those abilities with custom stuff.

[Mixster]

Far as I know, four people is the maximum regardless of feats and class features. Feel free to ask about that though. More the merrier, right?

Unless the rules have changed you also get the full number of Avatars. Since there are 1/2 of the HD/Class levels of the Deity, I haven't found much use for them except for contributing to epic spells since they don't come with equipment.

Fusion them into yourself to get their abilities?

What I was planning was to fuse a bunch of characters into one so I had one character that had bascially infinite actions, who could use himself to power Epic Spell rituals and constantly cast a combined Foresee+Transport seed to move to wherever Dispater, while being immune to anything Dispater did. In addition to constantly attempting to use Trap The Soul on Dispater everytime he saw him.

This is why I was disallowing it. I've given you leash, so show me it's deserved. Otherwise I'll make the rule be that all plans can only involve 4 people. So you could have four characters or four people fusioned into one. And none of you want that rule, I'm sure.

But this doesn't change much. Then I just need to make the spells contingent and do them in the preparation. Then I just need to add a few more casters in preparation, and a few hundred different triggers, so I'm sure I've got every situation covered.
(Such as half a hundred contingent counterspells on different people around me casting spells, a teleportation effect occurring and stuff like that).
So while this seems to remove the trick, all it does is just giving the challenger more homework.

Unless you ban leadership and it's derivatives entirely, but then you'd also need to ban avatars. And even then, you could probably do this with 400HD. So you could as well ban preparation time. However, for every non-infinite loop ban you make, you take this further from an optimization challenge and more into an actual game.
That could be your intention, I'm not sure, but then I might have misunderstood something from what this actually is.

(This was also why I found it weird that Beholder Mage and Incantatrix was banned, what are the powers that an Incantatrix has that a Deity can't mimic? I mean you have all the free metamagic you want from being able to create your own Plane, where you can say all spells cast by you have every metamagic you want applied to them, and beholder mage saves you 10 dual-progression HD, what does that do for any real build?)

EDIT: By the way Tshern, I accept your terms, on the condition that we will bring along at least one Demi-Lich.

Epic spells are most definitely optimisation. Not the kind I frown upon though, but still optimisation. My challengers are by no means against custom spells, SDAs and whatnot, I simply decided to plan them before those. That way they can probbaly do what I want them to and then supplement those abilities with custom stuff.

Epic spells are at best TO for any game other than this. But probably required to beat something with a divine rank.

[Tshern]

Personally I allowed Incantatrix with the exception that they may not use epic metamagic feats or apply metamagics to epic spells. It only seemed reasonable to me. Still I doubt any such trickery is needed to beat this challenge. I wish I were not so lazy, I could have finished my challengers already!

[Mixster]

Personally I allowed Incantatrix with the exception that they may not use epic metamagic feats or apply metamagics to epic spells. It only seemed reasonable to me. Still I doubt any such trickery is needed to beat this challenge. I wish I were not so lazy, I could have finished my challengers already!

Still mostly a speed-bump with Automatic Metamagic and 1000+ spell slots to pump those epic spells full of metamagic effects.

Think of it this way, even a 21st level Wizard w/ Leadership and 36 charisma (easy to get with epic spells) using an Epic spell and fuelling with spells from all his minions could cast 4 epic spells with a spellcraft level of well above 1000. I've tried creating a few epic spells, and I haven't ever been able to make one at more than 1500. This is within the grasp of the lowly 21st level mage. What should somebody with 100HD that can potentially have these guys as follower not be able to do?

And remember, thrallherds do this even better. Since they get 2 followers, who can again be followers, giving you a progression of thralls that work according to fibonacci numbers. (The number of thralls you'll have of any given level is equal to number of thralls you have that are one level above it + the number of thralls you have 2 levels above it)

[Shadowmind]

What are the flaws in this plan: I know there are some.
Once in Dis move away from the iron road as fast as possible, use Temporal Acceleration if necessary, since  Spell Stowaway (time stop) doesn't effect it.
Encase oneself in a none iron sphere to break line of effect and line of sight. Improved Over Channel the Temporal Acceleration to about 120 ML taking up to 1920 damage, use up to 3 of those rounds to heal that damage back.
While in the Temporal Acceleration to use Reality Revision into the Tower, repeating until you pass the rank check.
Have maybe a minute in a half-left in the time acceleration.
Hard part begins.

[Tshern]

Still mostly a speed-bump with Automatic Metamagic and 1000+ spell slots to pump those epic spells full of metamagic effects.

As said, I would not allow the Incantatrix ability to work on epic spells. The class was designed for level 20 and under. Much like I would not allow, say, a Loremaster to grab epic feats with their bonus feats. Not up to my ruling through, so I wish you the best of luck. Someone has to win this thing eventually!

Think of it this way, even a 21st level Wizard w/ Leadership and 36 charisma (easy to get with epic spells) using an Epic spell and fuelling with spells from all his minions could cast 4 epic spells with a spellcraft level of well above 1000. I've tried creating a few epic spells, and I haven't ever been able to make one at more than 1500. This is within the grasp of the lowly 21st level mage. What should somebody with 100HD that can potentially have these guys as follower not be able to do?

Aye, charisma 36 is nothing at this level. I still don't see the point of such epic spells. It is my opinion that you people are making this way more complicated than it truly is. Then again, I have never tried to face Dispater here (well, I did run scenarios), so I might be wrong.

And remember, thrallherds do this even better. Since they get 2 followers, who can again be followers, giving you a progression of thralls that work according to fibonacci numbers. (The number of thralls you'll have of any given level is equal to number of thralls you have that are one level above it + the number of thralls you have 2 levels above it)

Assuming you are allowed to use Leadership, I think Undead Leadership stacks with it. With a bunch of people mixing in Thrallherd and the two Leaderships, you could have even more people.

[Tshern]

What are the flaws in this plan: I know there are some.
Once in Dis move away from the iron road as fast as possible, use Temporal Acceleration if necessary, since  Spell Stowaway (time stop) doesn't effect it.
Encase oneself in a none iron sphere to break line of effect and line of sight. Improved Over Channel the Temporal Acceleration to about 120 ML taking up to 1920 damage, use up to 3 of those rounds to heal that damage back.
While in the Temporal Acceleration to use Reality Revision into the Tower, repeating until you pass the rank check.
Have maybe a minute in a half-left in the time acceleration.
Hard part begins.

Reality revision to do what? I seriously doubt the solution is this difficult. Killing Dispater is not the problem, getting within reach (whether with spells or something) is. So far I deem the attempts and ideas given rather inadequate for that, because I know I would have contingencies against them,. However, we do have a new DM. I guess that is why I am eager to try.

[TravelLog]

I get the sense that this has quickly degenerated into "let's mess with the new guy."

Challenge accepted, gentlemen.

[Tshern]

I get the sense that this has quickly degenerated into "let's mess with the new guy."

Challenge accepted, gentlemen.

Don't worry, unless I am the first one, I'll cover your back. Do remember, no DM of the Iron Siege lost their first try! Or the second. Or the third.

[Shadowmind]

Reality revision to do what? I seriously doubt the solution is this difficult. Killing Dispater is not the problem, getting within reach (whether with spells or something) is. So far I deem the attempts and ideas given rather inadequate for that, because I know I would have contingencies against them,. However, we do have a new DM. I guess that is why I am eager to try.

For the Transport travelers clause: This power can lift one creature per manifester level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and power resistance (if any) applies.
Unless there is an easier to enter the Tower.
The plan up that point was just a plan to get into the Tower without being interrupted.

[Tshern]

Reality revision to do what? I seriously doubt the solution is this difficult. Killing Dispater is not the problem, getting within reach (whether with spells or something) is. So far I deem the attempts and ideas given rather inadequate for that, because I know I would have contingencies against them,. However, we do have a new DM. I guess that is why I am eager to try.

For the Transport travelers clause: This power can lift one creature per manifester level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and power resistance (if any) applies.
Unless there is an easier to enter the Tower.
The plan up that point was just a plan to get into the Tower without being interrupted.

Ah, there are better ways of doing this. Make sure to take Travel as a portfolio element and use Alter reality. No XP cost there.

[Mixster]

As said, I would not allow the Incantatrix ability to work on epic spells. The class was designed for level 20 and under. Much like I would not allow, say, a Loremaster to grab epic feats with their bonus feats. Not up to my ruling through, so I wish you the best of luck. Someone has to win this thing eventually!

I wasn't talking about using the incantatrix ability to modify the epic spells.
I was talking about the fact that to mimic any metamagic feat the incantatrix could add to this epic spell would be at most +150 to the spellcraft DC, meaning it would be trivial for any 21st level mage to get around it.
---
The problem I see with giving people 400HD and 18 Divine Ranks and then banning things on a case for case basis is pretty weird. With this amount of power, any given problem can be solved in a myriad of ways. Banning the simpler ones (Incantatrix doing the Metamagic for you, Transport + Foresee working), is just speedblocks.

Here's a bunch of the objectives and the easiest solution, as I see them. Every time you ban the easiest solution, it doesn't mean the problem doesn't have to be solved. So an optimizer needs to use his HD+Divine Rank + Epic Spells (+ Skills + Feats) to find a work-around, if you keep banning work-arounds the task becomes meaningless, because all you do is setting the bar lower and lower for what can be used.

#1 Teleport to Dispater and get around his defenses; Easiest Solution: Transport + Foresee + Some Ignore Magical protections Epic Seeds
#2 Be immune to any preliminary defense Dispater has set up; Easiest Solution: Demilich + Planar Bubble + Epic Spell to make you immune to being timestopped and Disjuncted. Another Epic spell to make you immune to epic spells (I'm guessing you need one per epic spell, so this takes some time).
#3 Make sure Dispater doesn't escape; Easiest Solution: Contingent Transport + Foresee + some ignore magical protections epic seeds to follow him.
#4 Kill Dispater; Easiest solution: Trap The Soul from Demilich, and a few retries.
All of these can be bypassed by the SDA Overlord: Abominations. But reading the "how to create your own deity" chapter hardly qualifies as optimization.

All in all, a DM could keep banning these things, and an optimizer would keep needing to get a new work-around. This then develops into a what will the DM allow, until one of the points become impossible, and the task thus becomes impossible, or a work-around is allowed and the task is completed.

[Tshern]

I wasn't talking about using the incantatrix ability to modify the epic spells. I was talking about the fact that to mimic any metamagic feat the incantatrix could add to this epic spell would be at most +150 to the spellcraft DC, meaning it would be trivial for any 21st level mage to get around it.

So not so much about modifying epic spells than it is about modifying epic spells? Adding a metamagic feat to a spell is modifying the spell.

The problem I see with giving people 400HD and 18 Divine Ranks and then banning things on a case for case basis is pretty weird. With this amount of power, any given problem can be solved in a myriad of ways. Banning the simpler ones (Incantatrix doing the Metamagic for you, Transport + Foresee working), is just speedblocks.

Actually 370 HD and 18 DvR. If you use divine ranks, one of your characters is restricted to 70 HD.

Secondly, if this can be solved in a myriad of ways, then not one of those options has been tried. Obviously custom abilities have to be accepted on a case by case basis. Epic spells specifically require that. The other abilities have to be accepted, because otherwise they might not be in line with the original abilities. If they are only speedblocks, there should be no problem?
Here's a bunch of the objectives and the easiest solution, as I see them. Every time you ban the easiest solution, it doesn't mean the problem doesn't have to be solved. So an optimizer needs to use his HD+Divine Rank + Epic Spells (+ Skills + Feats) to find a work-around, if you keep banning work-arounds the task becomes meaningless, because all you do is setting the bar lower and lower for what can be used.

#1 Teleport to Dispater and get around his defenses; Easiest Solution: Transport + Foresee + Some Ignore Magical protections Epic Seeds
#2 Be immune to any preliminary defense Dispater has set up; Easiest Solution: Demilich + Planar Bubble + Epic Spell to make you immune to being timestopped and Disjuncted. Another Epic spell to make you immune to epic spells (I'm guessing you need one per epic spell, so this takes some time).
#3 Make sure Dispater doesn't escape; Easiest Solution: Contingent Transport + Foresee + some ignore magical protections epic seeds to follow him.
#4 Kill Dispater; Easiest solution: Trap The Soul from Demilich, and a few retries.
All of these can be bypassed by the SDA Overlord: Abominations. But reading the "how to create your own deity" chapter hardly qualifies as optimization.

Seems like too much effort to me, could be worth trying nevertheless. Every time a challenger tries something, the others know a bit more. All in all, I think you may have a plan here.

All in all, a DM could keep banning these things, and an optimizer would keep needing to get a new work-around. This then develops into a what will the DM allow, until one of the points become impossible, and the task thus becomes impossible, or a work-around is allowed and the task is completed.

Use abilities that are in line with the stuff that has been used when Dispater was build.

[Shadowmind]

What are the flaws in this plan: I know there are some.
Once in Dis move away from the iron road as fast as possible, use Temporal Acceleration if necessary, since  Spell Stowaway (time stop) doesn't effect it.
Encase oneself in a none iron sphere to break line of effect and line of sight. Improved Over Channel the Temporal Acceleration to about 120 ML taking up to 1920 damage, use up to 3 of those rounds to heal that damage back.
While in the Temporal Acceleration to use Reality Revision to travel into the Tower or Alter Reality if have Travel porfolio, repeating until you pass the rank check.
Have maybe a minute in a half-left in the time acceleration.
Hard part begins.
Use Metamorphosis, Greater to turn into a piece of iron like a coin or an animated object with some way to mask your magical auras. Now wait until you find some one who isn't immune to mind effecting(detected by Mindsight preferably with below 40 int), then Possess Mortal, and keep jumping from devil to devil until get get to one that knows where Dispater is. Doing this completely undetected will be near impossible. Non detection, ring of Sequestering, Vecna blooded  divination immunity benefit stolen by a Illithid Savant, and other things might help along with high hide and bluff checks.

Updated the strategy.

[Tshern]

I have arrived to such an annoying situation in my plan that it is driving me nuts. More accurately, I am sort of stuck with one of my minions as I can't find a way for him to do what I want the way I want. Thus, I turn to you for some advice.

Do you guys know a feasible of method of acquiring more immediate actions? Swifts are easy, but immediate ones less so. The character will be a non-deity with approximately 95 HD to play with, so that should not be a problem. I need no more than, say, three immediate actions a round.

[Mixster]

I have arrived to such an annoying situation in my plan that it is driving me nuts. More accurately, I am sort of stuck with one of my minions as I can't find a way for him to do what I want the way I want. Thus, I turn to you for some advice.

Do you guys know a feasible of method of acquiring more immediate actions? Swifts are easy, but immediate ones less so. The character will be a non-deity with approximately 95 HD to play with, so that should not be a problem. I need no more than, say, three immediate actions a round.

Chronotyryn, or timestop are the only ways I know of.

[Tshern]

I have arrived to such an annoying situation in my plan that it is driving me nuts. More accurately, I am sort of stuck with one of my minions as I can't find a way for him to do what I want the way I want. Thus, I turn to you for some advice.

Do you guys know a feasible of method of acquiring more immediate actions? Swifts are easy, but immediate ones less so. The character will be a non-deity with approximately 95 HD to play with, so that should not be a problem. I need no more than, say, three immediate actions a round.

Chronotyryn, or timestop are the only ways I know of.

And Temporal acceleration, obviously. I was afraid this would be the result, but there is not much I can do about it. Thanks.

[zook1shoe]

I've been trying some stuff. It's hard... Like everyone has said, finding is the hardest

[Daniel]

Both Wish and Arcane Fusion can mimic spells that take an immediate action. To use those when it's not your turn you can use Contingency (SLA to let you refresh it each turn), Synchronicity, or that divine spell that gives you an extra readied action. Swiftblade & Swiftness (choker) would get you 2 extra actions that you could turn into immediate actions through the methods listed above.

The loss of Incantatrix makes me a little bit sad. The ability to modify a hostile spell with Metamagic Effect/Seize Concentration + Enhance Effect/Snatch Spell was one of the coolest abilities that I have learned of through this challenge. I really hope that Incantatrix was not banned due to it's cheap metamagic. There are so many ways to do that in this challenge that Metamagic Effect hardly breaks Incantatrix. (I'm assuming that Metamagic effect doesn't allow you to apply metamagic to epic spells.)

Here is a quick reference sheet for some ways to bypass some of the obstacles.

Disjuction: Esoteric Aegis
Planar Effects: Epic Consecrated Stealth Planar Bubble
Vile Damage: Epic Consecrated Stealth Planar Bubble
Detect Magic: Epic Consecrated Stealth Planar Bubble
Holy Water: Life Ward
Dimensional Anchor: Spell Resistance/Immunity
Telekinesis: Force Immunity (Void Incarnate)
Vile Lightning: Evasion
Spell Stowaway (Time Stop): Innervated Speed
Stolen/Disjoined Items: Vow of Poverty/Demilich
Extraordinary Detection: Darkstalker/Superior Invisibility
Entering the Tower: Wish
Iron Curtain: Alter Reality
Ferric Affinity: Don't get detected

Any build should also include plenty of raw stat bonuses (Marshal, Factotum, Cosmic Descryer, Paladin), numerous immunities (Illithid Slayer, Void Incarnate, Undead/Construct Subtype) and the option for extra actions when needed (Swiftblade, Factotum, Ruby Knight Vindicator).