3.5e Knight/Fighter/Kensai control or others

[Dwarfi]

EDIT: Current build:
3.5e
A control build with a reach weapon Guisarm or spiked chain. Dw. Warpike wont be allowed as nobody has Dragon Mag.
A Gauntlet or dw. waraxe(1H) as a 2nd weapon
We will try to stick to core, so the written idea below will probably be replaced by a fighter based build instead of the knight. Maybe I can talk the group at least into a nice prc for the fighter.

Some options, all depending on what is allowed:

(click to show/hide)

Knight3> Fighter2> Kensai or Occult slayer As seen below, this was the original idea - The PrC is only there if the DM allows it-otherwise there isnt really anything in core

Core:
Wiz1/Fighter5 > PrC Delay by 1 Lv, but gives free use of a wand and a familliar, PrC problem as above
Monk 1-2 + Fighter > - best option if the PrC are not allowed. Great saves, feats and more skills.
The monk would be ok too, passive way would actually free up INT to be spend in WIS or extra CON, except if we want to get impr. disarm as well.

Stats: 32 Point buy, depend on the PrC and passive way monk. If we need the INT then something around
16/16/16/14/8/6 (dwarf) - I think 4 Aoo /round should be sufficient.

Passive way monk would free up the INT for alternatives: (but we dont get impr disarm) (All include. the dwarf stats already)
16/16/18/8/10/6 (no penalty on WIS) seems pretty legit. If we are fine with a little less CON then we could go 16/16/16/8/14/6 for a much better Will SV.
Its hard to decide between the two.

Actually Monk>Fighter>Kensai would be a nice roleplay story too. A dwarfen monk is something exotic in itself, training with equally exotic weapons. Combining it with the dwarfen stonecunning to get a good Craft skill on Lv1. When leavong the cloister, he has to make a MW weapon to prove his skills. This can later turn into the Kensai class.
Would be nice.^^

Stats: 32 point buy
16/16/14-14/8/8 would be 16 CON and 6 CHA as a dwarf... an ugly knight. We get +2 on Saves anyway so the WIS doesnt bother me as much.
The 14 INT is necessary for W.Expertise and to get all the cross class skill for Kensai in. And an odd number would be useless in terms of extra skills.
We could go for 18CON (dwarf) and drop the DEX by some amount, but I havent played an AOO build yet, so I am not sure, how many we actually need. ^^

Personal tweaks and flavors: A weaponsmith- after beeing rescued by a knightly order, he feels so inspired to become one himself.
If I can make it believeable for the knight, it might be ok to start with the spiked chain instead of the dw. Weapons, a bit cheesy but whatever. ^^
Maybe a knightly order of protectors, who are based around the more "civilized" ways of battle. Meaning trip and disarm. (Switch intimidate for diplomacy?)
So we could switch Mounted combat on LV2 for something else (or just retrain)

Knight3- Fighter2 - Kensai ...
Lv1 Knight: C.Expertise
Lv2 Knight: Mounted combat > retrain Impr. Trip
Lv3 Combat reflexes
Lv4 Fighter: power attack
Lv5 fighter: Weapon focus
Lv6 Kensai: disarm

Alternate: Exotic weapon master: Lv8
The saves are rather bad again, but it fits the flair.
Trip Attack, Flurry of strikes and exotic reach would be the way to go. Compared to a Kensai... I dont think its really worth it. Any thoughts here?

Skills: Dwarf: INT14
We need Conc5, Dipl 5 and ride 5 for the Kensai.
Conc should be high enough so that we can use the Kensai abilitys (we get ~3 from CON)
Diplomacy maybe in exchange for Intimidate as a knight?
Craft weaponsmith should be good too as our weapon cant be repaired otherwise DC 18 (+2INT/+2Dwarf/+2tools)
And if mageslayer is possible 2 spellcraft

Lv1: 16 : Concentration 4(8), diplomacy 4(8) (both cross class skills)
Lv2: 4 - Conc 5(2), dipl 5(2)
Lv3: 4 - ride 4
Lv4: 4 - ride 5(1), swim 3
Lv5: 4 - swim 7(4) (you always need swim and a Kensai cant learn it)
Lv6: 6 - Conc 9 (4), craft weapons (2)
Lv7: 6 - Conc 10(1), craft weapons 7(5)
Lv8: 6 - Conc 11(1), Craft weapons 11(4), Kw, nobility 1

Note: This might not work as planned. Cross class skills can only by maxed to 1/2 the normal amount.

The Saves on Lv6:
1/1/3 -Lv3 Knight
3/0/0 - Lv2 Fighter
0/0/1- Lv1 Kensai

=4/1/4 +2vs poison/+2vs magic
+Ability points

Early items: Healing belt (700) Steadfast boots (1400), ring of floating(2000) ...recetly the planning goes more into the direction of total DM control. So basically no MIC. T_T

Open for all ideas.

[Unbeliever]

Unless you focus on it (google Supermount), the Paladin class feature just isn't that impressive.  Although they can get a flying dragon thingy (Draconomicon) for a feat, so there's that.  But, I also think you can like buy a Griffin, so ymmv. 

Core is tough b/c it doesn't support melee fighting real well.  Also, the OP mentions Knight several times, which is decidedly not Core.  I mention it b/c ToB has the most fun lockdown stuff and Thicket of Blades.

Really, you're talking about various control or charger builds.  There are many many of these.  Especially scattered across various class handbook.  Given the OP and a desire for simple builds, take a look at the Paladin Handbook.  A charger-focused Paladin should be able to splash in some reach control as well, especially combined with the Knockdown feat.  And, it's simple and tanky.  Prestige Paladin is probably even better, but that sort of stuff usually is.

Barring specific resources you deploy, mounted vs. on foot isn't a huge difference.  You've got the obvious stuff, like the size of the mount and the fact that it can be killed to contend with. 

[Arz]

For your first idea check out spear of doom along with all the AoO builds. I summarize some of the monkery in my DD guide, sig.

[Dwarfi]

Thanks so far everyone.

Using a spear seems interesting too. I will have to take a look into what weapon does what.
Disarm can be done with any weapon
Sunder need a slash or blud. weapon, so no spear or lance.

Longspear- (1d8) 2xdmg against chargers when ready.
lance- (1d8) 2x when used to charge, but needs a mount
Guisarm (2d4) can trip
Spiked chain (2d4) is the king of all, but does no extra dmg, better disarm, weapon finess bonus, trip, hit 5ft away too, but only 2x on crit.

Glaive (1d10)
Ranseur (2d4) bonus on disarm
Halberd (1d10) can trip/set vs charge -if it only had reach T__T

For a mounted charge build, its obviously the lance as no other weapon gives that bonus.
For a defender type the choice is rather limited too. the ready action on a spear like weapon is nice, but usually the trip option is more effective I think.

[Dwarfi]

Just collecting some ideas from different handbooks and builds:

Tome of battle: Crusader sure is nice, but my group has a split oppinion on it. There is a feeling of OP-ness around that book, that my team doesnt like.
I would still like to play one though ^^ If its not allowed then I guess I would go for a Knight from PHB2, and If I dont go for a mount-version, I might be able to switch mounted combat for another feat instead.

MIC: Steadfast boots - Your weapon is always readied  against a charge (only vs you)
Might be a nice addition to a spear-stand still build although it would also grant other 2H weapons double dmg
So you could weald a guisarm or spiked chain and still do double dmg while using a trip control build.

Cometary collision PHB2: - At 1st an interesting thought, but why using a ready action, if you can just atk on your own turn? Or move in a good spot if you have a reach weapon?

For a mounted combat build:
Boots of the battle charger (MIC): 2/day charge as a standard action - although with ride by attack and a mounts high movement, we already have lot of move options.
Charging (MIC) - +2d6 dmg on a mounted charge for a +1 enchantment?
Riding boots (MIC) - pricey but the effect is too good. Mounted combat feat/ bonus dmg with spirited charge I wonder how this interacts with the Chevalier PrC?
Battle bridle (MIC) - Gives the mounted combat feat too or ride by atk + ride skill
Mounted combat: Seems to be a really easy to get feat, even the knight gets it + another bonus feat. Makes it hard to pick between a knight and a paladin, but I lean to the 1st.

A mounted charger build seems to be able to do a lot of dmg and is really interesting to try out, although its quite the 1trickpony. The problem is the mount, especially when you have to go into a dungeon or alike.
A small character wouldnt have as much problems, but the dmg would be a bit lower as well.

Other (PrC)classes: Kensai: For obvious reasons, pushing your weapon.
Anointed Knight: In combination with Kensai for a buffed weapon.
Psyonic class: Can enlarge early and has some other nice effects.
Cavalier: A late PrC and the deadly charge only works 1 a day, so ...

[Averien]

1trickpony.

I see what you did there

[Dwarfi]

Yea ^^, for pony!

Ok, I was tinkering around  over this and I would really like to make a reach-control build based on a knight, as I still assume that Crusader wont be allowed.
The biggest problem there is the awful 13INT requirement for Combat Expertise, why an odd number? - You think this could be houseruled to 12 instead?

I lean to either a human (always good) or a dwarf.
With a control build the charisma is prob not going to be very high anyway, so it might be best to only take 3 Knight levels.
In which case the dwarf gains some points for the armor bonus.

Calculating: With 16 STR we can carry 76lbs. So a human would have the same speed as a dwarf most of the time. Getting to that weight usually happens once we get a full plate armor (50lbs)
Comapred to a breastplate with 30. Beyond that we would need to get a STR item or be a dwarf.

Stats:
16/14/16-14/8/8 woulb be 18 con and 6 cha as a dwarf... an ugly knight. We get +2 on Saves anyway so the WIS doesnt bother me as much.
+The knight has good will saves

I originally satellited around the PrC: Prestige Paladin, Kensai,Anointed knight and hell reaver (although that book is a bit exotic) But I dropped that idea, as most of them need high Cha to work, which I dont have.

Kensai needs W focus, but might be the best choice for a PrC, but needs high concentration/Diplomacy which are cross-class skills for a knight, so the INT has to be 14 or we dont get enough skills.
We would be able to get the 5 Dipl/Conc/Ride without problems, as a dwarf we get it too but basically nothing else
After that we would max Conc for Kensai, besides that we could spend the remaining points in swim, climb and alike.

Knight3- fighter2 - Kensai might be a good way
Human: Lv1- C.Expertise/ Impr Trip
Lv2 Knight: Mounted combat > retrain if we dont go for Kensai
Lv3 Combat reflexes
Lv4 Fighter: Knock down
Lv5 fighter: Weapon focus
Lv6 Kensai: Power Attack

The Saves Would be
1/1/3 -Lv3 Knight
3/0/0 - Lv2 Fighter
0/0/1- Lv1 Kensai

= 4/1/4 Lv6 Character +Ability Scores > 8/3/3 +2vs poison/ +2vs magic
A KensaiLv5 can do a little about some reflex saves, but besides will, he has rather crappy Saves. A human would be even worse.
Because of that, I am actually leaning towards a dwarf.

A dwarf would lack 1 feat, but gets the movement bonus and saves and with a generous DM might get a Dwarfen warpike although we usually dont use DragonM. A Spiked chain instead maybe? ^^ Darkvision, poison and magic Sv are nice too.

Any other ideas for PrC or build combinations that might work?
That exotic weapon specialist from Complete Warrior has some abilities, flurry with a chain, AOO vs concealed target and +2 on trip
-Its nice, but the Kensai beats it.

Question: Does a Kensai only increase the enhancement of the weapon? Or can he actually imbue an effect, like "keen" into it?

[Vladeshi]

Question: Does a Kensai only increase the enhancement of the weapon? Or can he actually imbue an effect, like "keen" into it?

Yes he can as keen is shown as an example of what he can do with his weapon.
However, the way it is worded kind of implies that you must increase the enhancement bonus to +5 before adding abilities.

[Dwarfi]

Neat.

Any ideas what good +1 or +2 enchantments would be for a control tank-Kensai?
Keen is fun, but beyond Lv6 I dont have much feats planned, so I could do that with Impr crit as well.

Paralyzing? Only 1/day, but nice
ghost touch- maybe better on a secondary weapon
Knockback? if we use a spiked chain on a target 5ft away, then it would be usefull. On a pike? not so much. + It must be activated so not on AOO.
Chargebreaker? The save is too low, otherwise it would be nice
Any effect that mimmics other metals or chooseable enegry damage?
Stygian? 3/day 1Level loss for 10 min?
Any vampiric effect?- Bloodstone

+2Collision? +5 neutral dmg on all hits?
+2 vampiric

Steadfast boots are a must have besides that.

[Dwarfi]

I am still working around this.
Character crafting is fun.

As a special point a spiked chain can be used for weapon finesse.
Well, thats nice, but dropping STR would make the trip and dmg worse, not to mention what we can carry, although that might not be such a problem for a dwarf.
What is your experience with this? How much DEX do you need and what is a good balance between STR and Dex?

If my group decides to go core only, then I am basically stuck with fighter, maybe with some wiz levels, as I already have INT. (enlarge person, yey) although Spell failure chance is really bad. With +3Dex we could be fine with a breastplate, so the failure chance wouldnt be as high. (25% to 35% with Full plate)
EDIT: I forgot about wands, so we can play around that problem too.

If a non core PrC would be allowed somehow then the Occult slayer might be a nice roleplay choice here.
Wiz/Fighter>Occult slayer, the Wiz might not even be really necessary for this. But even with 5 fighter we wouldnt be able to grab all Trip feats + Impr Ini and focus without delaying the PrC.

Otherwise a Kensai would be even better as the dmg is neutral.

Hmm... 1Lv Monk maybe? Good for saves, some skills and impr. grab - I know usually dwarfs dont become monks, but with some flavor that shouldnt be a problem.
It strongly depends on the PrC, but if I can get a passive way monk in there somehow...

[Dwarfi]

I guess this is more of a thought collection for me now. ^^

I have distanced myself from the Kensai idea a bit and go more to the Exotic weapon master, which is just way easier to get and more focussed on what I want to do anyway (trip attacks)
So far i dont really know of any other PrC that actually works well with a fighter- trip build and doesnt need Cleric or Wiz levels.

Some ideas for a EWM build:

1) Fighter7: Full BAB, 10HD - Con: Needs 13 INT, delayed feats (compare below) Note: <This is actually the worst possible build.
2) BarB2 (wolf totem) >Fighter5: Pro: Rage, no INT needed, fast movement, D12, Full BAB Con: No Impr Disarm, no heavy armor (not necessarily the best choice anyway)

If we delay the PrC:
3) Monk1 (passive way) > Fighter 7: Pro: Bonus Feats, No INT needed, Skillpoints, Saves Con: -1BAB, D8, delays the PrC
Note:
4) This works with Monk2 as well, we would get +1 on all saves and more Skillpoints, Trip, but another D8 and another level without armor.

5) Monk2> Fighter4> Kensai2> EWM works too, but only with at least 10 INT
With 10INT and 2 monk Levels we would be able to get into Kensai for Lv7/8 and then switch into EXW, which would make a better use of LV7/8 than fighter (1Feat). Here we get a +2 weapon and power surge.

If we want to enlarge ourself, the easiest way I can think of would be WIZ1. Cleric1 would work too but only with the magic domain to use wands.Unless we WANT to try casting in armor, then using a wand would be the easiest way. If we have a buddy to do this for us it would be even better.
A cleric would have the advantage of a higher HD and casting in armor, but we would definately need 12WIS and the STR domain.
Acf combat wizard would replace scribe scrollwith a Fighter feat, so that would be neat too.

Monk1 (passive way) > Fighter2 > Wiz1 (combat wizard) > Fighter 5:
Pro: Lots of feats, saves, skillpoints, enlarge person, familiar Con: 1D8+1D4, PrC on LV9 (-2BAB), No INT needed for a rod

I am open for all ideas. Homebrewing a Prc might be interesting too. Maybe something that gives enlarge as an ability if we have at least 12 INT or can cast Lv1 spells? Do you know of any other Class/PrC that would fit well into this?

Paladin: No CHA and the abilitys dont help us much anyway.
Marshal: Nice Lv1 Aura for a bonus on all STR checks, but again -1 BAB

EDIT: Another find: The mythic exemplar from C.Champion.: Knw. history3,+5BAB, Intimidate 7 should be easy to get for a fighter build, except the knw history, which obviously favors paladins or clerics.
Sunyartra would be the way to go: +1 crit range, +1 on STR checks, +4 STR, haste, divine power, perm. +2 STR, Ignore 15 DR...
Only thing problematic would be the requ. for the trip build, at least if we want to take 1 Cleric Lv.
13INT+12WIS would really crunch our numbers to something around 14 for STR/DEX and CON.