3.5 Ubercharger Advice

[New-to-PF]

Hey everyone. I 100% agree casters are superior to melee, however we need a party meat shield and I have been designated as the person to fill the role of fighter. I dislike the concept of a "tank" and want to obliterate monsters, therefore I'm partial to the ubercharger.

I know the basics of power attack, leap attack, shock trooper and the such and I am going with half orc to qualify for the headlong charge feat as well battle jump has already been approved as long as I spend the skill ranks in knowledge local for taer regional feat. We are starting at level 1 so valorous weapon is out for a few levels but I am going with barbarian 1 to get pounce from the lion totem and then fighter to get the bonus feats until level 4.

Anyway to get to the point...I was wondering if there are any good combinations with this build besides the frenzied berzerker. I was thinking about going into the dragon desciple prestige for the strength bonus but that would mean taking a level of sorc or bard at level 5 to qualify. Would this be a good or bad option? What other choices could I go with to maximize damage output?

[Vladeshi]

My go to for Ubercharger at tables that I have been at is
Barbarian(Lion Totem)1/Fighter(Dungeoncrasher)6/Bear Warrior5/Warshaper4/???4
The other players at the table have nicknamed it the "Drop Bear".
Never got high enough level to really decide what to do after Warshaper.
Basic idea is to leap attack pounce for three attacks while initiating a bull rush to slam them into a wall for some crazy damage numbers.
Shocktrooper is normally taken for the nice power attack benefits but it also fits neatly with Dungeoncrasher.

[Solo]

Barb 2 (Spirit Lion Totem and Wolf Totem ACFs)/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/Bear Warrior 5/Warshaper 4/Fist of the Forest 3

[Unbeliever]

Solo and Vladeshi have given you a fun, mighty powerful charger.  It's worth noting that you don't actually need to do much to do a ton of damage.  You've got the basics of what you need to do, and the rest is just how close to "11" you want to crank it.

Another possibility, which gives you more a tank/meat shield role (an all-in ubercharger is glassier than it has to be) is some flavor of Paladin-type character.  Alternatively, you can get some reach and do some battlefield control in there as well.

[muktidata]

In the rear's dragoon build tips thing is designed for this.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2462.0

I cant find a live version.

[New-to-PF]

Wow. So if I read the bear charger correctly I keep all my stats but get a bonus to str, dex, and con depending on which form I take. How does this work with my armor and other magic items, do they meld just like when a druid uses wild shape and return when I go back into my natural form? If so is there a way besides wild armor or Wilding clasps to keep my magic items functional, maybe a feat or spell? Not that I won't completely obliterate whatever it is I'm hitting with my insanely high charge damage on 3 attacks, also once I hit level 11 and have 3 attacks, is there a reason to wild shape besides the extra strength bonus?

Warshaper looks amazing all around, I'd almost just take 1 level of bear warrior to get to war shaper immediatly. The only issue I have with it is that it's a 2/3 BAB class, however I believe the class benefits are far superior.

The dungeon crasher version of fighter has me a little confused.  If I read correctly,  I can make a bull rush attempt as part of a charge and if I knock them into a wall I do 4d8 plus twice my strength modifier. Say I have a +5 strength and I roll average I'm getting 16+10=26. How does that even come close to compare to say power attacking for -5 giving me a +30 to damage before I roll my damage dice and add 1.5 my strength.  Am I reading this wrong? Is it possible to make a charge and bull rush? Is there a tactic I'm missing? The only thing I could possibly think of is giving up 1 attack on my pounce but that still is less damage. While 8d8 plus triple my strength is nice, I can power at take for almost -10 for a plus 60 damage at this point in character level.

I like the concept of fist of the forest but I think it relies too heavily in my wild shaping and I can only do it 3x per day. Not that we will be encountering more than 3 enemies in a normal day, but the extra die step doesn't seem worth it to me.

After bear warrior and Warshaper paladin might be fun just to balance out my character as far as making up for bad saves etc. That is an interesting combo I haven't thought about.

Anyway.....thank you, all of you for your input. It has been most appreciated. You are all clearly experts and I look forward to learning more from each of you.

Mulktidata, thanks for the post and reference. However I could not open the link for some reason, it just takes me to the wizards homepage :-(

[Argent Fatalis]

If you're trying to shore up poor saves Endurance leading into Steadfast Determination is essentially the go to in these scenarios, as your Constitution should be stupid high as both a barbarian and a tank-it-with-your-chest type. There's also a feat somewhere, which for the life of me I can't remember what book (I want to say a Faerun or Dragonlance one), that gives your Constitution modifier as a bonus to all saving throws, with no prerequisites. This also all goes hand in hand with Fist of the Forest's bonus to Armor Class from Constitution, should you go that route.

Between both of those defensive elements though, you shouldn't have to worry much about anyone or anything trying to ruin your day with a save.

[Vladeshi]

Say I have a +5 strength and I roll average I'm getting 16+10=26. How does that even come close to compare to say power attacking for -5 giving me a +30 to damage before I roll my damage dice and add 1.5 my strength.

+5 strength???
Between Bear Warrior and Warshaper plus any other buffs from party members and such your strength score should be in the low 40's.
20(starting) + 16(Brown bear form) + 4(Warshaper) + misc = 40+
We should be looking at a strength modifier of +15 or better.

I have double checked some of the rules for magic items and Bear Form.
Bear Form is stated to be "similar to polymorph", I am going to have to assume that that means it works exactly the same other than stated changes.
Polymorph then refers to Alter Self which states that any items that may be used by the new form remain.
Talk to your DM about what items a bear can wear and use, but I would say that belts of giants strength and amulets of mighty fist are going to still be there for you.
Also hats, less because I know of any hat/helmets useful to Uberchargers and more because a bear in a hat killing everyone is hilarious. 

[Jackinthegreen]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ocq2brsq5r9beqgmoschrjujr0&topic=12842.msg434540#msg434540 is a build that does quite well on damage, though there are some issues with it (such as Expansion and Enlarge Person explicitly not being able to stack).  Keep some of the better stuff while cutting some of the worse so you can improve your defenses and versatility for when charging isn't going to work.

[New-to-PF]

So what I have so far for day one is the following (I rolled high on stats) -->

Half orc
Barbarian, (Spirit lion totem ACF)
Level 1

Abilities:
Str 20 (18 + 2 racial)
Dex 16
Con 17
Int 12 (14 - 2 racial)
Wis 15
Cha 11 (13 - 2 racial)

Feat:
power attack

Special Abilities:
Pounce
Illiteracy
Rage

Saving Throws:
Fort 5 (2 + ability)
Ref 3 (0 + ability)
Will 2 (0 + ability)

This seems like the logical choice for level 1.

I plan on taking levels 2-7 as fighter to get the complete benefits from dungeoncrasher.

Feats:
2) improved bull rush
3) battle jump
5) leap attack
6) shock trooper

After that bear warrior 1, then Warshaper 4.

Feats:
9) endurance
12) steadfast determination

Unless someone can identify that feat that allows con to go to all saving throws, the feat that Argent Fatalis was referring to,  then that will be my level 9 but I couldn't find it.

Then back to bear warrior for 4 levels
Feats:
15) headlong charge.

This is my 1st draft at this character so there may be some bad math or just bad choices here. Please feel free to point out any mistakes I have made, I am no expert on d&d.

Vladeshi, I love the hat idea, it reminds me of Kung Fu Panda.

Jackinthegreen,  Thanks for the Link. That's a FB build though and I know my DM will plot against me with marbles or caltrops so I'm avoiding it but I will say that's one of the best builds I've seen for it.

Again, thanks for all the information. I am looking forward to your responses

[SorO_Lost]

I plan on taking levels 2-7 as fighter to get the complete benefits from dungeoncrasher.

A) Never take odd levels in Fighter.
B) Without even more Feats, Dungeoncrasher is mutually exclusive from Charging and sucks balls.

Dungeoncrash has to Bullrush people into walls. Bullrush means no attacking for damage, and you provoke an AoO form your target unless you have Improved Bullrush, and you have to beat your opponent's Opposing Strength Check with appropriate Size Modifiers (just about everything in the MM1 is larger than you and has more strength), and that only let's you move them a whole 5ft. You kinda of need Flight to claim that you're pushing them into the ground so a wall is nearby, otherwise you need a really high check (+5 per 5ft) to succeed without the perfect circumstances. And you only deal 8d6+(str mod * 3). And that's it since it's not an attack, that also means no multipliers or Power Attack. So say you have 20 Str, that's an average 43 points at level 6.

Opposed by this is simply Fighter 6 with Power Attack, Improved Bullrush & Shock Trooper as Bonus Feats, Headlong Rush and Battle Jump as normal Feats (leaving one bonus and one normal open). At 20 Str and a +1 Valorous Greatsword you deal 6d6+60 or 81 on average, if you're Fighter 4/ Lion Totem Barbarian 1 you get two weapon attacks and each one has a chance to score a Critical Hit. So overall: a Dungeoncrasher pays out a 2 Feat tax for the variant, another two Feats to pull it off, and deals only 26% of the damage of a charger and has no direct future progression outside of more Strength.

It is possible to combine the two later on, triggering a Bullrush when you make a successful attack, but the level 6 example above already kills everything near it's CR in one turn. You'd be better off forwarding your resources into defense and tactics that don't require you to run at your enemy to win, just in case you don't have the room or the ability to charge (say you were hit with fatigue).

[New-to-PF]

Ok. So I was correct in my statement about my charge doing more damage that the dungeoncrasher doing a bull rush.  That's why I was confused.

What do you mean when you say never take odd levels in fighter. Meaning like 3-5-7 etc...    if I take barbarian 1 and fighter at 2nd-7 levels do I not get a fighter bonus feat at level 3-5-7 etc because I'm an even level fighter class?

What else should I be focusing on after I get to level 7, I think you forgot to mention leap attack (however you did mention 1 open feat) but that feat aside? Do you have any suggestions? What do you think about the Bear Warrior and Warshaper prestige classes? I like them and think it would be fun to role play but I'm always open to new ideas. Besides more strength and BAB I see the ubercharger build basically capping it's potential for multipliers by level 8 or so, where to go from there?

Thanks for clarifying on the ACF dungeoncrasher for fighter, I don't think I'm going to go that route anymore.

[Argent Fatalis]

If you'd rather not be a bear, why not go Primeval? It's a novel class in that it works a tremendous amount like Bear Warrior and grants some interesting class features that lets you become an ancient beast. It does require two terrible feats and a very weak one (Endurance) that's only use ever is to springboard into better things (Steadfast Determination).

[Jackinthegreen]

What do you mean when you say never take odd levels in fighter. Meaning like 3-5-7 etc...    if I take barbarian 1 and fighter at 2nd-7 levels do I not get a fighter bonus feat at level 3-5-7 etc because I'm an even level fighter class?

You're thinking about it wrong.

If your first level is Barbarian, then you're Barbarian 1 and have all the features of a 1st level Barbarian.  If you then take 1 level of Fighter, that means your build is now Barbarian 1/Fighter 1 and you are a 2nd level character.  You have the class features of a 1st level Barbarian and a 1st level Fighter.  You do -not- have the second level stuff from Fighter because you only have 1 -class level- in Fighter.

So if your first level was Barbarian, then you took 6 levels of Fighter, you'd have Barbarian 1/Fighter 6.  You would only have 6th level Fighter class features, and if all you wanted was Dungeoncrasher from Fighter then that's where you'd stop because the Dungeoncrasher bonuses are gained at 2nd and 6th level of Fighter.

[New-to-PF]

Ok jackthegreen, I think I'm understanding what Soro_lost is saying now. I didn't explain myself very clear in my post.

I was saying 2-7 level being my character level,  not class level. So I was actually meaning 1barb/6ftr= CL7. That's my fault.

Now if im understanding correctly, Soro was saying don't take a 7th level in fighter because there is no other benefit besides BAB+1 and there are a million better options.

Ardent fatalis, I do like the bear warrior. I was just asking Soro if they had any opinions or other suggestions because they suggested I should stop focusing on things that involve running at my opponent. The primeval looks interesting too. However I do agree there is a lot of work just to get into the class. On the other hand if I'm already taking endurance for steadfast and I don't take dungeoncrasher those are the 2 extra feats I need, so it is still a possibility.

[SorO_Lost]

Ok. So I was correct in my statement about my charge doing more damage that the dungeoncrasher doing a bull rush.  That's why I was confused.

Yeah it's pretty easy to out damage a Dungeoncrasher. It's just another lie you read somewhere else that we have to unteach people.

Now if im understanding correctly, Soro was saying don't take a 7th level in fighter because there is no other benefit besides BAB+1 and there are a million better options.

Exactly. An even level of Fighter gives you a Feat so 6 and 8 can be useful, but 5, 7, 9, give very little and there are better options.

I was just asking Soro if they had any opinions or other suggestions because they suggested I should stop focusing on things that involve running at my opponent.

If I understand your first post right, you were looking at Fighter 4 / Lion Totem Barbarian 1 / Any full-BAB 1, which is good.

Feat wise, Battle Jump^1st, Power Attack^B, Improved Bullrush^B, Headlong Rush^3rd, & Shock Trooper^6th. And you'll basically "complete" ubercharging. You can obtain a Valorous Greatsword and then later on a Valorous Halberd of Vaulting^A&E to maintain some very significant damage. Specifically, 1d10+(Str*1.5)+(BAB*2) x 5 x (BAB-1/5). ...I hope that doesn't confuse you. Basically at level 9 & 22 Str its an average of 325+, comparatively a CR 20 Balor has 290hp and a Pit Fiend has 225HP. So try to imagine that at level 20 & 34+ Str, yeah it's done. Time to look else where.

So for the rest of your levels, Feats, and item selection you can generally take things anywhere you wish to go. Tome of Battle, Spellcasting granting PrCs, maybe focus on Full-Attack damage, the sky is the limit. It really is how you want to approach things. You did mention liking Bear Warrior & the Kung fu Panda. So that could be a way to go if you like. It provides a nice Strength Bonus for Full-Attacking when you're not charging but you'll want to pick up Extra Rage (+2/day) so you won't feel so limited. Plus you look like a bear leaping into the air and landing on people with a Halbred which is pretty awesome.

[New-to-PF]

Ok Soro, you've got me thinking now.

As an uber charger that can basically kill a Balor with my first attack, and if for whatever reason not, I have pounce for a 2nd attack to guarantee death all by just level 9.

Where are my weaknesses? If I go with steadfast determination my only lacking save will be reflex, even so if i make that save for half damage,  what do I do to avoid being subject to a million fireballs or rangers that I can't get to. 

This is where I could use some help. Do I try to take the route of mage slayer or do I discontinue my fighter path and try for something completely different. As you said, the sky is the limit.

Let's just say I take 1 level of Barbarian and 8 levels of Fighter. Now I am level 9 and can kill (almost) anything in the game with melee damage. Now I want to look at what I can do to survive outside of melee?

Maybe go rogue for evasion?  What after that though, I still have no way of ranging my enemies or keeping alive. Keeping in mind my low INT and CHA I don't think Wiz or Sorc would be the route to take to obtain range.

Yes i know this is supposed to be an Ubercharger advice post but i think we have established a realistic end to that focus by level 9 so I'm all ears here, keep the ideas flowing.

[SorO_Lost]

This is where I could use some help. Do I try to take the route of mage slayer or do I discontinue my fighter path and try for something completely different. As you said, the sky is the limit.

Yeah, it's pretty much where do you want to take things.

If you're looking into Rogue, maybe you should look into the Drow Fighter. It replaces your 1st level Feat for +2 to Initiative (so 1/2 improved initiative) and Dex-to-Damage against Flat-Footed foes, I think it works on Flanking too but I'd have to check. And speaking of ACFs, Rogue can trade in Trapsense for Penetrating Strike^DS for 1/2 SA rate against creatures that would be otherwise immune, or you can sacrifice Sneak Attack all together for more bonus Feats using Martial Rogue^UA.

But for ranged, I'd honestly go with Boomerang Daze^RoE since you're looking at so many Fighter levels. You toss a Boomerang and then your opponent has to make a Fort Save using the DC of 10 + damage dealt. You can add your Strength Bonus to thrown weapons plus the DC benefits from enchanting the weapon with +5 Collision^EPH. Failure and they are Dazed, no actions, until the start of your next turn. So you can kind of just keep beating on people and your party can help or even when you just need to buy a delay instead of trying to kill an opponent.

And if you want to maximize your defense. Honestly, how do you feel about running around looking like a death knight (sic armor and a sword screaming not in the face) vs cowardly hiding from everything and kicking your opponent's head?

(click to show/hide)

Yeah, I'm talking about Monk.
Invisible Fist Dark Moon Disciple Monk 7 / Lion Totem Barbarian 1 delivers much of the same numbers as the Fighter but better long-term defense at the cost of AC. Like you'll trade in armor for 50% Concealment as early as level 2 and Total-Concealment also has the added benefit of preventing people from targeting you with Spells. Fireball becomes about only type of option to kill you post lv7.

[New-to-PF]

1) I like the idea of boomerang, how do I hit multiple opponents or even the same one twice?  If I read correctly it only comes back if I miss my attack, so really it's only 1 round of time saving. Don't get me wrong, it is definetely useful, especially if the monster has a good initiative or we need an extra round to run away, but short of the boomerang ricochet feat I don't know how to hit multiple targets or times. Also that's 3 feats,  pretty steep price to pay for a daze for 1 round. Still, if this can be fixed I love the idea.

2) I am not sure how monk and barbarian tie together unless your saying to give up rage by becoming lawful and just continue in that path. Defense isn't really what I'm after though,  I'm more looking of how to get to my opponents but I realize there is a need for some defense (I have bad will and reflex) and don't want to fall subject to being helpless when it comes to fireballs and the such. The resolute acf from CC comes to mind also.

3) Rogue was only considered for a dip to get evasion, at this point (level 9) the extra few d6 SA damage would be almost useless on top of my already high damage. Drow fighter has me interested though, is this just a drow race and fighter class or is there an actual class called drow fighter,  I couldn't find it in my research.

I did see the Occult Slayer class and thought it's level 5 ability to be immune to all mind affecting spells and spell like abilities would be great, but it doesn't help me avoid damage spells.

What do you think about going for composite longbow specializing?  Is it already too late to really be decent enough at this to make a difference when I can't get close enough to melee?

[Jackinthegreen]

Here's the list of all ACFs not in Dragon Mag:  http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8732.0

The Drow Fighter Soro is talking about is found in the book Drow of the Underdark, so it might not be open to you.  And even if the book was open, your DM might decide it can only be taken by actual Drow characters.  It's often called "Hit And Run" fighter instead.

And no, the Dex to damage it gets does not work on flanking.  Only on flat-footed.