Solid Build (not broken) for Spellward Sniper, Unseen Seer, Swift Hunter or ????

[Kikkenass]

Hey Guys,

I am in need of assistance in building a solid combat character who can do more than just hit stuff.

My current character is a Level 11 Dwarven Rogue 8/Ranger 3. He has become the walking joke of the party since his attacks aren't strong enough to damage any of the creatures we face (most have high DR and AC  making it almost impossible for him to do much in the way of damage. He himself only has an AC of 23 he isn't very effective in doing any backstab damage since he can't ever get in close enough to provide flanking and use the BS Damage. Even if he were to succeed in getting in range to do BS damage he is lacking in the right equipment to be able to do anything worth while. Unfortunately he is just dead weight because we aren't in a dungeon or in a place where his skills can be put to use. When the character came on board I had built him as a former rogue who was trying to convert to a Ranger and change his ways. However the adventure really needed a rogue at the time so I continued down that path. I basically painted him into a stereotyped corner and I have no way to get him out of it.

He has feats of Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Iron Will, Endurance and Weapon Focus (Cross Bow)

Base Stats of 14 Str, 19 Dex, 17 Con, 16 Int, 12 Wis and 15 Cha.

We are at a point in the campaign where I have the option of retiring this character and bringing in a replacement.

We are currently playing in a Forgotten Realms setting. I am burdened by a Paladin in the group, a cleric who would rather battle than heal and a party who doesn't know anything less than "If it moves kill it" Since we are in a campaign designed for 4 players and we a 7-8 player group with a couple of party NPC's the DM Automatically doubles all HP's and Increases the AC of almost everything to very challenging levels. Our Party is made up of a Paladin, A cleric (who doesn't heal very often and serves as a second tank) A Druid (who heals most of the time) Bard who also serves as patch healer, A Sorcerer (Working toward Blood Mage) a Warrior and myself (Ranger/Rogue)

What D&D books you can use? PHB, PHB II. DMG, DMG II, Complete Adventurer, Complete Arcane, Complete Champion, Complete Divine, Complete Mage, Complete Scoundrel, Complete Warrior, Complete Psionic (Non Psionic Feats only), Magic Item Compendium, Miniatures Handbook, Races of Destiny, Races of Stone, Races of the Dragon, Races of the Wild, Spell Compendium, Player's Guide to Faerûn

What type of character you want it to be? I am partial to Rogues and Rangers (or any variant of)

What levels will this character be played at? My character would be level 11 with intent to go to epic levels.

Any house rules or particular details about your DM or the other characters in the game? There are a few house rules Psionics are not allowed, Repeatable trip attacks are not allowed. Flaws are not allowed.
 
What specifically you are looking for help with? I would like to create a character that is Optimized for combat but still able to do skill checks. I enjoy being the skill monkey but I dislike being worthless in combat. I don't want to create a broken character, I do however want to make a character who is "Solid"

Spellward Sniper, Unseen Seer, Swift Hunter..... These are the builds I am most interested in.

As I am "retiring" my Rogue/Ranger I don't want to leave the party without any means of dealing with traps and locks and what not. So I am willing to sacrifice "some" things to make sure that I am a good utility character but I do not want to get to a point to where I am useless in combat.

My DM is not the Monty Hall type who just gives us free reign on magic items. Most have to be either acquired via structured shop inventory or "ordered" and delivered at a later date.

Since I will be building this character straight to Level 11 to start I will have 66k gold to spend and he utilized the rule that no starting character can spend more than 25% of their starting gold on a single item (which equals 16500 gp iirc)

I have already rolled out the stats and did extremely well

Level 1 attributes came out to be, 17 15 14 17 16 18. I will have two ability points to add to this as I level up the character as well.

I wanted to build a different character that would be more balanced and solid in both the areas of combat and skills so I am open to suggestions.


Thanks in advance for all your help.

[Jackinthegreen]

Hang on, your party has a Warrior?  As in the NPC class?  I really hope you meant to have Fighter there instead.

Great rolls on the stats.  Those will help you be a more martial type if that's the route you'd prefer.

What kinds of skills seem to be most in demand through this campaign?  What skills would you like to be most proficient in and/or cover for others?

What kinds of monsters are you going up against typically?  How often are you up against crit-immune enemies?

How high of level do you guys plan on going?  Take note that as your enemies get higher level, they're more likely to be immune to Sneak Attack and Skirmish which means you'll have to buy items or use some spells to attack immune enemies.  Or you can try to build something that doesn't rely on precision damage.  Swift Hunter can do Skirmish Damage against its Favored Enemies, but how often would those favored enemies be popping up instead of something else?

What does the houserule barring "repeated trips" mean?  If it means you can't use an AoO to trip an enemy that's standing from prone, that's already disallowed by the rules.  If it means you can't get more than one or two trips against an enemy in a combat then...  That's annoying, but it's plenty possible to make solid characters that don't rely on tripping.

Do you want more of a ranged focus, or a melee focus?

[TiaC]

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 4/Spellwarp Sniper 2

Spellwarp Frost Breath. You now have a second-level spell that applies a no-save daze and carries sneak attack.

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 3/Incantatrix 3

Use Incantatrix to persist Improved Invisibility, Hunter's Eye(Gained from Unseen Seer) and a few Clouds of Knives. You are now a walking cuisinart.

Either of these build can make good use of Thunderlance to allow you to be even more Int-SAD or Flame Dagger for touch attack sneak attacks.

Rogue 1/Wu jen 4/Unseen Seer 6
Arcane Thesis (Fire Shuriken). It's an instantaneous spell, so you can stockpile them in downtime.
Take Empower, Energy Substitution(Electricity), Energy Admixture, and Born of the Three Thunders. Every hit forces a save vs. stun, if they fail, they lose Dex and can be sneak attacked. You suffer no negative effects from Born of the Three Thunders since you cast the spell in downtime.

[Kikkenass]

Hang on, your party has a Warrior?  As in the NPC class?  I really hope you meant to have Fighter there instead.

Yes Fighter. Sorry MMO's still rule my brain some days

Great rolls on the stats.  Those will help you be a more martial type if that's the route you'd prefer. Thanks. Some of the best rolls I have ever had!

What kinds of skills seem to be most in demand through this campaign?  What skills would you like to be most proficient in and/or cover for others? Our DM frequently utilizes the common skills, (spot, search, listen, concentration, knowledge, etc.... as characters we do use common ones like Tumble, swim, jump, climb, hide, disable device, open lock.)  Unless your talking about skills in a different context

What kinds of monsters are you going up against typically?  How often are you up against crit-immune enemies?  Monsters vary, We are following a campaign in the Forgotten Realms setting, (I don't want to name the campaign as not to skew someone's suggestion.) We have fought Giants, Rahshasa's, Demons, and everything in between. We haven't fought that many Crit Immune creatures but most of them have insane AC and at least double HP's not to mention "granted" abilities that the monster didn't have to begin with. As mentioned in my OP we are a party of 7-8 doing an adventure meant for 4.

How high of level do you guys plan on going?  Take note that as your enemies get higher level, they're more likely to be immune to Sneak Attack and Skirmish which means you'll have to buy items or use some spells to attack immune enemies.  Or you can try to build something that doesn't rely on precision damage.  Swift Hunter can do Skirmish Damage against its Favored Enemies, but how often would those favored enemies be popping up instead of something else?We will be going epic levels from what I understand of the campaign. Swift Hunter was a build idea I liked as it fit in well with my rogue/ranger originally but I am not dead set on it.

What does the houserule barring "repeated trips" mean?  If it means you can't use an AoO to trip an enemy that's standing from prone, that's already disallowed by the rules.  If it means you can't get more than one or two trips against an enemy in a combat then...  That's annoying, but it's plenty possible to make solid characters that don't rely on tripping. Yea the second statement is the true one. The DM has blown a gasket in the past due to a PC using trip and believes it is uber broken. So he has effectively banned it from the game. Even if someone did try to use it I suspect he would just grant the BBEM with an immunity to it. Or start making every enemy we face start using trip in every fight (Not fun with its 15 against 8 lol)

Do you want more of a ranged focus, or a melee focus? I think that Ranged would be best as we have currently 3 front line fighters.

[KellKheraptis]

I knew I had this one somewhere:

Factotum 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 6

Play as a changeling.  This gets 9's and 4 iteratives naturally, as well, and if I recall, has the BAB to swing to drop a point, opening up 4 levels of Spellwarp Sniper in place of EK.  That allows you to nab up to 4th level pewpew from otherwise non-RTA spells (my usual go-to is something at least range medium, and ironically the much maligned Fireball works great for sniping with range-long, as long as you can change the energy type to something non-resistable, such as through Elven Spell Lore).

[Kikkenass]

I knew I had this one somewhere:

Factotum 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 6

Play as a changeling.  This gets 9's and 4 iteratives naturally, as well, and if I recall, has the BAB to swing to drop a point, opening up 4 levels of Spellwarp Sniper in place of EK.  That allows you to nab up to 4th level pewpew from otherwise non-RTA spells (my usual go-to is something at least range medium, and ironically the much maligned Fireball works great for sniping with range-long, as long as you can change the energy type to something non-resistable, such as through Elven Spell Lore).

I appreciate the suggestion and I will definitely look more into this, I don't know anything about Foctotum or Abjurant Champion  or Elven Spell Lore so I will have to read up on those.

I can already guarantee the DM will say no to Changeling

I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to

This gets 9's and 4 iteratives naturally, as well, and if I recall, has the BAB to swing to drop a point, opening up 4 levels of Spellwarp Sniper in place of EK

I don't spend a lot of time of forums and I am still new to the min/max community so need you do dumb that down for me in English. (I know what BAB is)

[KellKheraptis]

I knew I had this one somewhere:

Factotum 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 6

Play as a changeling.  This gets 9's and 4 iteratives naturally, as well, and if I recall, has the BAB to swing to drop a point, opening up 4 levels of Spellwarp Sniper in place of EK.  That allows you to nab up to 4th level pewpew from otherwise non-RTA spells (my usual go-to is something at least range medium, and ironically the much maligned Fireball works great for sniping with range-long, as long as you can change the energy type to something non-resistable, such as through Elven Spell Lore).

I appreciate the suggestion and I will definitely look more into this, I don't know anything about Foctotum or Abjurant Champion  or Elven Spell Lore so I will have to read up on those.

I can already guarantee the DM will say no to Changeling

I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to

This gets 9's and 4 iteratives naturally, as well, and if I recall, has the BAB to swing to drop a point, opening up 4 levels of Spellwarp Sniper in place of EK

I don't spend a lot of time of forums and I am still new to the min/max community so need you do dumb that down for me in English. (I know what BAB is)

Why?  Changelings are LA 0, and lose the human bonus feat and skill points in exchange for the ability to change appearance at will (basically in a nutshell).  Oh noes, a level 1 at most spell at will, which a feat will out-perform most of the time if it's an optimized feat.  Any race can pull it off really, but changeling is just better.

The factotem was to synergize the race selection by granting all skills as class skills and a few Int-based goodies.  Abjurant Champion is from Complete Mage - basically the go-to gish class, and awesome for pumping AC and general defense.  Elven Spell Lore grants a bonus to dispel checks, and lets you change the energy type of some spells, with no verbiage stating what damage type you can pick.  Select sonic if you think the DM will restrict it to the base 5, as few things are resistant or immune, or pick something like hellfire that can't be resisted if he won't.

Finally, what level of play are you shooting for?  As in, are you in a party with a monk, a heal-bot cleric, and a sword and board, or are you in a party with a Tashalatora King of Smack Psychic Warrior, a Dweomerkeeper Cleric of Mystra, and a Frenzied Bear Warrior Berserker?  That will tell me how bad ass an arcane assassin you need

[Jackinthegreen]

I suspect Changeling would be shot down since it was originally an Eberron race, but they do appear in Monster Manual 3 too.  Same for Warforged and Shifters.

9's refers to 9th level spells.  4 iteratives refers to the number of attacks gained from BAB, though if stuff has high AC then only the first two have a chance of hitting.  It's better to get extra attacks at the top BAB than to get extra iteratives.  It would require a fair bit of optimization to make sure the third and fourth iteratives have a good shot at hitting and such optimization is certainly going to cause problems.

Does the increased monster AC apply to touch and/or Flat-footed too?  Those can hopefully be exploited, e4specially if you're a Spellwarp Sniper or similar and have some form of continuous Invisibility to make the opponents flat-footed/denied Dex to AC against a touch attack.

Continuous flight would also be good so you and others can move around better, but it's plenty possible your DM would cry "OP!" on that depending on how it's achieved and such.  The easiest way to do it would likely be warlock, and with a warlock you can get the touch attack Eldritch Blast to shoot stuff all day long.  Alas, boosting the damage on that can be quite the pain, but it is certainly possible to have a spell ride along with it via the Eldritch Theurge PrC.

[Nifft]

Just wanted to suggest the Sneak Attack Fighter UA option instead of Rogue.

Yeah, you get no useful skills, but who cares? You're not trying to be a Rogue. (Also: do NOT take this class at level 1.) The weapon & armor proficiencies qualify you for Spellsword 1, which opens up your armor options a bit. The weapon proficiencies are nice at low levels, maybe, especially if you find a way to get Power Attack for free (perhaps temporarily from a spell), so you can do a True Strike greatsword Power Attack. The +1 BAB is nice.

So your build would go like:

Wizard 4 / SA Fighter 1 / Unseen Seer (...)

[Jackinthegreen]

Considering books were explicitly named, I'm guessing Unearthed Arcana isn't allowed due to not being listed.

If it does end up being allowed, then combining the Sneak Attack Fighter with the Thug Fighter to get more skills and such would work to get the SA requirement with the +1 BAB and acceptable 4+Int skills.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8732.0 has a list of all the ACFs not found in Dragon Mag.

[phaedrusxy]

I'm currently playing a version of this and enjoying it a lot. I wound up changing it up to fit the campaign, but it could certainly work well for what it seems you're going for. I'd suggest just making it a human because you're feat-starved like crazy.

Having 3 levels of Incantatrix lets you apply Persistent Spell to a whole pile of things for "free" (you need to be able to make extremely high Spellcraft checks, but there's no spell level adjustment). This lets you go around 24/7 with things like Cloud of Knives, Improved Mirror Image, and Improved Blink. You're also quite skilled due to starting as a spellthief for class skills and having a high Int, and if you take Master Spellthief you should be able to "steal" other people's spells (and then Persist them on yourself). This could include "stealing" things like Divine Power from the party cleric (in exchange for Persisting all of his buffs via your 2nd level Incantatrix ability...).

At 7th level, you'll "just" be a wizard with a spellthief level, but don't despair! Once you hit 9th level (and Incantatrix 3), you'll be well on your way to uberness.

[Kikkenass]

I suspect Changeling would be shot down since it was originally an Eberron race, but they do appear in Monster Manual 3 too.  Same for Warforged and Shifters.

9's refers to 9th level spells.  4 iteratives refers to the number of attacks gained from BAB, though if stuff has high AC then only the first two have a chance of hitting.  It's better to get extra attacks at the top BAB than to get extra iteratives.  It would require a fair bit of optimization to make sure the third and fourth iteratives have a good shot at hitting and such optimization is certainly going to cause problems.

Does the increased monster AC apply to touch and/or Flat-footed too?  Those can hopefully be exploited, especially if you're a Spellwarp Sniper or similar and have some form of continuous Invisibility to make the opponents flat-footed/denied Dex to AC against a touch attack.

Continuous flight would also be good so you and others can move around better, but it's plenty possible your DM would cry "OP!" on that depending on how it's achieved and such.  The easiest way to do it would likely be warlock, and with a warlock you can get the touch attack Eldritch Blast to shoot stuff all day long.  Alas, boosting the damage on that can be quite the pain, but it is certainly possible to have a spell ride along with it via the Eldritch Theurge PrC.

The party all consists of base races and I think another of his house rules is the characters must be base races (double checking with DM) So Changelings would be excluded.

AC increase is proportional So it scales with the Flat Footed/Touch

Continuous flight would be cool but likely the DM would just Counteract it with confined spaces or something similar. lol

I will definitely will look into Warlock and thank you for the explanation of 9's 4 iterative and what not 

[Kikkenass]

I'm currently playing a version of this and enjoying it a lot. I wound up changing it up to fit the campaign, but it could certainly work well for what it seems you're going for. I'd suggest just making it a human because you're feat-starved like crazy.

Having 3 levels of Incantatrix lets you apply Persistent Spell to a whole pile of things for "free" (you need to be able to make extremely high Spellcraft checks, but there's no spell level adjustment). This lets you go around 24/7 with things like Cloud of Knives, Improved Mirror Image, and Improved Blink. You're also quite skilled due to starting as a spellthief for class skills and having a high Int, and if you take Master Spellthief you should be able to "steal" other people's spells (and then Persist them on yourself). This could include "stealing" things like Divine Power from the party cleric (in exchange for Persisting all of his buffs via your 2nd level Incantatrix ability...).

At 7th level, you'll "just" be a wizard with a spellthief level, but don't despair! Once you hit 9th level (and Incantatrix 3), you'll be well on your way to uberness.

..


What would this build look like out to 11th level. What would be the best class build progression?

[TiaC]

What would this build look like out to 11th level. What would be the best class build progression?

This is pretty much what I was saying up-thread. it looks like it would be Spellthief 1/Wiz (Diviner) 5/Incantatrix 3/Unseen Seer 2 (you could also drop a level of wizard and enter Unseen Seer earlier to get better BAB and a few more skills)

If sticking to core races, Human or Grey elf are probably your best options. If you go elf, the first two Elven Substitution levels from Races of the Wild are pretty good.

So, how I might build this at level 11 is:
Grey Elf Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 1/Incantatrix 3/Unseen Seer +2
Stats: Str 12, Dex 19, Con 15, Int 22, Wis 15, Cha 16
Feats:
B: Scribe Scroll
1: Extend Spell
3: Persist Spell
6: Master Spellthief or Practiced Spellcaster depending on DM ruling as to how Master Spellthief works (It doesn't seem to increase your ability to store stolen spells, can you cast them anyways? Does it let you ignore Unseen Seer's CL penalty?)
9: Fill to taste (combat feat, metamagic, item creation, Skill focus(Spellcraft)...)
B: Iron Will (From otyugh hole)
B: Silent Spell
Saves: Fort +9 (3 base, 2 Con, 4 doubled rat familiar), Reflex +7 (3 base, 4 Dex), Will +16 (12 base, 2 Wis, 2 feat)

[phaedrusxy]

TiaC's class progression is what I had in mind.  Item familiar is almost compulsory to hit the spellcraft checks you need.

[KellKheraptis]

As to Master Spellthief and Unseen Seer, remember order of operations : take the penalty, set CL from Master Spellthief (thus negating it), then add the CL bonus to divination.  Similar trick as the one used with Wild Mage or Anarchic Initiate, only using a different method (take CL/ML penalty, apply Practiced Caster/Manifester, add bonus from roll if any).

[Kikkenass]

As to Master Spellthief and Unseen Seer, remember order of operations : take the penalty, set CL from Master Spellthief (thus negating it), then add the CL bonus to divination.  Similar trick as the one used with Wild Mage or Anarchic Initiate, only using a different method (take CL/ML penalty, apply Practiced Caster/Manifester, add bonus from roll if any).

I love these build ideas! But I have also run into another "House rule"

My DM know's full well that I don't know all of the in's and out's of the rule books and how to optimize a character using 4 different classes/prestige classes. So he has added a "Max of 3" rule. (I get to thank another player who tried to play with an Overpowered min/max toon that he pulled off of online. No player can bring in a character with more than 3 different classes. (at least at this point, he states once we get close to epic levels then he will relax that rule)

 

[Unbeliever]

So ... he hates melee characters.  Got it. 

More seriously, you have to decide how much optimization you want to bring to this table.  If it sounds like they aren't that into optimization, meaning you'll blow everyone else out of the water, then ease off it.  This is an important thing to do and to know where the limits are. 

If not, then fuck your DM and play Wizard 20, Cleric 20, or Druid 20.  Seriously, fuck these arbitrary limitations.  He either wants to run D&D or he doesn't.  If he's got a problem with a particular character or build, then he needs to go find some big boy pants and put asinine limitations that punish already weak concepts.  The best, cherry-picked Swift Hunter conceivable still pales in comparison to Druid 20. 

[Kikkenass]

So ... he hates melee characters.  Got it. 

More seriously, you have to decide how much optimization you want to bring to this table.  If it sounds like they aren't that into optimization, meaning you'll blow everyone else out of the water, then ease off it.  This is an important thing to do and to know where the limits are. 

If not, then fuck your DM and play Wizard 20, Cleric 20, or Druid 20.  Seriously, fuck these arbitrary limitations.  He either wants to run D&D or he doesn't.  If he's got a problem with a particular character or build, then he needs to go find some big boy pants and put asinine limitations that punish already weak concepts.  The best, cherry-picked Swift Hunter conceivable still pales in comparison to Druid 20.

Yea I am frustrated by it as well but I also get where he is coming from. And yes they aren't that into optimization and I could possibly blow everyone else out of the water. But also I have been in his shoes where one person shows up with a Net Character vs one they actually put time and effort into building and it completely throws off the entire party and can quickly ruin a campaign. So I can't be too mad at him.

So I guess I am stuck with building a strong character that can survive in a fight and do skills but that is on par with higher than average players. I don't want to build a toon that ends up like my last one. Painted into a corner and only useful in certain situations.

[KellKheraptis]

Well if he thinks that'll preserve balance, play Wizard 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Incantatrix 10, and then wait for the sobbing 

Seriously, that build alone with the right feats takes you from GOD wizard to Raistlin Majere at full height of deific-slaying power.  Insta-cast any spell or power in the game via shadow miracles.  Or, if you REALLY want to fry things, sub out Incantatrix (cries...but it's necessary) for Red Wizard, and then  to every other mage in the game, including Twice-Betrayers/Cheaters of Mystra.  CL 100+ without any real trickery, and every one of them is a 20th level slot shadow miracle (well...almost every one of them...gotta have some lower slot ones to put in the spell matrix line of spells to nova properly).