[3.5]Most Suitable Spells for an ECL 12 Cleric/Ordained Champion/R.S.o.P/F.O.R.

[TrigBen]

*Semi-Long Read*

Hello,

After some googling and reading around, I've determined there are too many good spells in DnD 3.5. I'm having trouble picking/finding spells most efficient and effective for the theme of my character. I'm hoping to receive some input and advice from others that have more knowledge of this stuff than I do.

My character is an ECL of 12 and is composed of a Cleric lvl 4 / O.C. lvl 5 / Radiant servant of pelor lvl 1 and Fist of Raziel level 2. My party is composed of a Druid, Sorcerer, Monk, Whip-Tripper and Bard.
While my character started out in more passive role i.e. support/healer with damage output second, I've decided to make my character a little more focused and less diverse in the many different roles of dnd: support/buffer/debuffer/healer/dmg/controller/caster etc.

From level 12 on I plan to have the theme of my character be more front-line/tankish/dps oriented with a 2-handed greatsword while still being able to provide some support (buffs? debuffs? control?) to the party. As a side note: it's been pointed out to me by a fellow party member that I'm playing my character inefficiently and should be focused primarily on buffing/debuffing/healing/control, because - you know - that's the stereotype of a cleric.

Anyway, that being said, my caster level is 9, so the number of spells known are:

Level 0: 8
Level 1: 5
Level 2: 4
Level 3: 3
Level 4: 2
Level 5: 0

For clarity, I should point out that I don't have the ability to spontaneous cast cure spells (replace one of my spells for an equivalent cure spell). Instead, I am able to spontaneous cast my war domain spells by sacrificing a spell.

The spells I finalize at level 12 stick with me until level 16 and cannot be switched out.

I haven't selected my final spells for level 12 yet, but the spells I have in mind are:

Level 0: Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Guidance, Read Magic, Resistance, Enhance Diplomacy, Mending
Level 1: Divine Favor (Buff), Shield of Faith (Buff - Support), Cure Light Wounds (Heal), Obscuring Mist (Control), and Doom (Debuff)
Level 2: Silence (Control), Resist Energy (Buff - Support), Lesser Restoration (Support), Bear's Endurance (Buff - +4 Con)
Level 3: Cure Serious Wounds (Heal), Dispel Magic (Debuff), Knight's Move (Control - Positioning)
Level 4: Greater Magic Weapon (Buff), Blessing of Fervor (Buff)
Level 5: 0

My domain spells (war, time, and sun) are:

Level 0:
Level 1: Endure Elements, Magic Weapon, True Strike
Level 2: Heat Metal, Spiritual Weapon, Gentle Repose
Level 3:Searing Light, Magic Vestment, Haste
Level 4: Divine Power, Fire Shield, Freedom of Movement
Level 5: Flame Strike, Flame Strike, Permanency

In conclusion, while keeping in mind the overall theme of my character: front-line/tankish/dps oriented while still being able to provide some support (buffs? debuffs? control?) etc. to the party, am I picking spells that are not very useful? Are there other spells more suitable for how I'd like to play my character and still be able to contribute to the party?

Any input is greatly appreciated.

Thank you for reading through this post.

[TrigBen]

After some more research, I have made some changes to the list of spells for Level 12:

Level 0: Detect Magic, Light, Guidance, Read Magic, Resistance, Enhance Diplomacy, Mending
Level 1: Divine Favor (Buff), Protection from Evil (Buff - Support), Lesser Vigor (Heal), Obscuring Mist (Control), and Sanctuary (Buff/Control)
Level 2: Silence (Control), Resist Energy (Buff/Support), Lesser Restoration (Support), Divine Insight (Buff)
Level 3: Cure Serious Wounds (Heal), Dispel Magic (Debuff), Remove Curse (Support)
Level 4: Greater Magic Weapon (Buff), Recitation (Complete Divine - Buff)
Level 5: 0

[stanprollyright]

1. What are your domains?

2. Don't prepare Cure Serious Wounds or any cure spells, you can spontaneously cast them.

3. You're a cleric. Prepare what you think will be effective, and if you find that they aren't prepare different ones tomorrow. For instance you might find that a lot of your buffs go uncast if you never have time to buff before combat, and you don't want to be spending more than one round buffing. So maybe tomorrow you prepare fewer buffs. Or you may find that you really like a certain buff and want it for every combat, so you prepare it multiple times. That said, some of your spells will be spontaneously converted into cure spells, so it's fine to prepare some situational stuff.

4. There is a Cleric Handbook with a section listing some of the best general-use spells, but it doesn't provide any details or justification.

5. In general, Summon Monster spells are very good and versatile for damage AND control AND utility AND defense. They take up space, have special attacks and SLAs, special movement and detection modes, and they do damage every round. Plus, if the baddie attacks your summon instead of your friends, you have effectively avoided an attack. Definitely a good tactic to have a summon or two prepared.

[TrigBen]

Thank you for the response, stanprollyright!

1) My domains are: Sun, War and Time

2) I cannot spontaneously cast cure spells, because I took a variant called "Spontaneous Divine Casters".  This variant prevents me from spontaneous casting cure and inflict spells.  However, Ordained Champion has an ability that allows me to spontaneous cast War Domain spells when sacrificing a turn undead attempt.  In summary and to answer your question strictly, I am not able to spontaneously cast cure spells.

3) This ties into "2".  Because, I have the Spontaneous Divine Caster variant, I forgo my ability to prepare different spells daily; therefore, the spells I choose are locked.  I am turning level 12, so I am able switch out older spells for newer ones (I am allowed to do this every 4 levels). 

4) I've examined the Cleric Handbook and have done my best integrating some of those spells along with other spells I and others deem "useful".

5) I have read a bunch about Summon Monster Spells, and while I believe they are strong and useful, I find that they don't fit the theme of my character very well.  In other words, I have opted out of picking those spells for flavor and play-style reasons.

In conclusion, it'll be interesting to read what you write in response to this post seeing as though you may have a different train of thought. 

Lastly, I do have to apologize for how much I wrote initially, but there was a lot to cover. While the block of text is a lot, it did include most of the answers to your questions.

Thank you again!

[stanprollyright]

Sorry I didn't realize you were using the spontaneous variant. Then yeah, grab a heal spell or two. And make sure your DM lets you get scrolls of Remove [condition] because you'll REALLY need them when you need them, but they make for crappy spells known. You seem to be really heavy on buffs IMO, I'd suggest switching it up and grabbing a few debuffs - Calm Emotions, Blindness/Deafness, Bestow Curse, Hold Person, etc. - as well as a utility spell or two. Maybe Divination or Blindsight. I'd still suggest grabbing, say, Summon Monster 4, just for a the sheer usefulness of it, but it's your call. Think Like a Sorcerer and cover your bases.

EDIT: As a frontliner, you have to weigh the usefulness of casting a buff in combat vs. a round of damage. You only want to spend one round casting buffs at most. Even with DMM: Persist, Nightsticks, and Quicken Spell/Rod, you're only looking at a few buffs before it becomes optimal to run into melee or smack them with Flame Strike. Your domains cover most of the best buffs already. I'd keep Protection from Evil and Resist Energy on top of your domain spells and take other types of spells for most of the rest. Definitely keep Dispel Magic, Lesser Restoration, and one cure spell. Keep Silence and Obscuring Mist only if your party mates don't have them because they're your only controls. Remove Curse is pretty situational, I'd get a scroll instead. Recitation is nice because it's full party, but not a must-have, and Divine Insight has good out of combat utility, though with a 5-man party including a Bard and Druid it may not be necessary. Divine Favor and GMW are both good spells but you've got a lot of combat buffs already and you get Magic Weapon and True Strike for free, so forget one or both of those. I'm not a big fan of Sanctuary either.

[TrigBen]

Thank you for a great read, stanprollyright.  You definitely provided some good knowledge on how to think as a front-liner and on how to balance chosen spells. I've taken away and added a few spells using your advice and input.

That being said, I want to briefly mention why I am holding on to certain spells, and if you feel my reasoning is off, please do say so.  If you have a better idea, I'll go for it.  I'm going for efficiency and effectiveness.  I have a feeling one of the members will be upset that I'm not going pure healer/buffer/remove [insert] build, but I have to get over it and just play the way I'd like to.

First, and most importantly, my DM banned DMM Persist and the business associated with it.  Sad times.

Second, I'm holding onto Divine Favor for two reasons: 1) It stacks with Divine Power; 2) We are heading into a dungeon and multiple encounters in a day are expected, so having more than one buff spell it will be nice.

Third, Sanctuary has some interesting flavor, IMO. If I'm not playing this "pure" cleric bot role, Sanctuary will provide an "oh shit" response to a sticky situation or a party member in poor positioning.

Fourth, I took your advice on grabbing a few debuffs: Lastai's Caress (no saving throw required).  The spell succeeds on a melee touch attack roll.  Also, I took Bestow Curse.  It seems to have some nice versatility to it. 

Fifth, I am having a hard time finding utility spells, but I think Divination provides some unique flavor and is useful in most situations (in and out of combat). 

Lastly, I haven't decided for sure, but I'm tempted to pick up Summon Monster IV.  I just feel weird summoning a spider or a Monster not of the same alignment as my cleric (neutral good).  And, in addition, I'm not sure how to role play my battle hungry melee cleric who's randomly summoning monsters... Lol.  Any tips on this would be greatly appreciated.  I'm still looking into other Level 4 spells.  If I replace SMIV it'd probably be with Death Ward. 

It's hard dropping Recitation because on paper it looks solid (+2 to Atk Rolls and Saves while -2 to Atk rolls and saves to all foes).  I dropped it though for Divination and SMIV. 

The newest list:

Level 1: Protection from Evil (Buff), Lesser Vigor (Heal), Obscuring Mist (Control), Sanctuary (Buff/Control), Divine Favor (Buff)
Level 2: Silence (Control), Resist Energy (Buff/Support), Lesser Restoration (Support), Lastai's Caress (Debuff)
Level 3: Cure Serious Wounds (Heal), Dispel Magic (Debuff), Bestow Curse (Debuff)
Level 4: Divination (Utility), Summon Monster IV

[stanprollyright]

Go with the Celestial Lion for damage or Giant Eagle for flight

I'm not familiar with Lastai's Caress. Where is it from?

And yeah, Recitation is good as it's full party buff/debuff. And it goes really well with Summon Monster (more party members to buff). Ask your DM about Divination because it's super DM-dependent. He may say it's not worth it or too much of a headache and you can get Recitation back. If not, take whichever you don't get next level.

Also remember that you can make Resistance permanent on your whole party with Permanency as well as Greater Magic Fang (assuming your Druid has it) on the Monk and Animal Companion. Also buy scrolls of See Invis. and/or Darkvision to make Permanent.

[TrigBen]

Sounds good! I like the idea of Celestial Lion for damage and Celestial Eagle for flight.  And, that works out perfectly, because I never chose a bonus language, so I can choose Celestial for flavor and be able to talk with the celestial summoned creatures and other good-aligned creatures.

As for Lastai's Caress.  It's from... Book of Exalted Deeds.  I'd copy and paste the spell in this post for convenience, but the description is quite long.  Let me know if it doesn't come up on google, and I can provide a link.  Depending on what you think, do you recommend a different level 2 spell?

I'll talk to my DM about Divination and modify spells from there according to your advice.

I'm ready to do the permanency stuff as soon as I level!  Thank you for that tidbit.

[stanprollyright]

I looked up Lastai's Caress...it's nice that it doesn't allow a save, but it also only works on evil creatures who aren't immune to mind-effecting powers, and there is a chance it will only apply a minor penalty instead of taking an enemy out of the fight. I think Calm Emotions is better. While it allows a save, it works in a 20ft burst at medium range and will immediately stop creatures from fighting. Also works on nonevil stuff and gets rid of Confusion and Fear effects. It has good flavor/RP usefulness as a good guy interested in talking rather than fighting. Because it affects multiple creatures at range that don't have to be evil and can be a counter to some nasty effects, you'll probably get more usefulness out it.

EDIT: Your Bard might have it though.

[Jackinthegreen]

This is Lastai's Caress:  http://dndtools.pw/spells/book-of-exalted-deeds--52/lastais-caress--51/

For future spell needs and plenty of other things dndtools is a great place.  It doesn't have Dragon Mag stuff, but it does have quite a bit of what's in the regular books.

If your DM allows certain versions of spells, perhaps the Complete Divine version of Recitation might work for a spell known.  It's both a buff and a debuff, though it only lasts 1 round per caster level.


I have used Sanctuary to good effect.  Basically a Frenzied Berserker attacked our party and ended up only having me as a valid target to hit, so I cast Sanctuary and the FB failed the save, which meant he tried attacking the flying fighter with a thrown weapon and missing so all that eventually happened was the FB's Frenzy ran out and he died at -50 HP.