Author Topic: The Politics Thread v2  (Read 180984 times)

Offline stanprollyright

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #140 on: September 27, 2015, 09:44:22 PM »
Can democracy of any kind work on a large scale? I think not. The ancient Greek city states could not even do it; there, democracy was controlled by the few free citizens, the elite. How is communication to be relayed from province to central authority? Shall we rely on carrier pigeon to ferry messages from Calais to London? Or court messengers riding from Normandy to Versailles? Such a system cannot convey the vast amounts of information needed to administer a country in a quick enough timeframe. No, decisions must be made locally, they must be made swiftly, and they must be made decisively.

For large countries, empires, and kingdoms, the only way to rule is through feudalism; one sovereign lord empowered by Christ and his emissary on earth, the Holy Father. And to him is allegiance sworn by vassals and feudal lords, who administer different parts of the realm in his place, and his name. This power structure capitulating to only one supreme authority ensures quick and decisive decision making through the realm, which will bring more peace and prosperity than the mob rule of democracy.

I know you're making an absurdist reduction to refute my logic, but there is a grain of truth in what you're saying. Direct democracy has never worked, and all democratic governments today are various hybrid representative democracy/republics and constitutional monarchies, headed by a representative ruling body and a selected head of state. I ask you, is feudalism so different from having several levels of government at the federal, state, and local level? 
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #141 on: September 27, 2015, 09:45:29 PM »
Can democracy of any kind work on a large scale? I think not. The ancient Greek city states could not even do it; there, democracy was controlled by the few free citizens, the elite. How is communication to be relayed from province to central authority? Shall we rely on carrier pigeon to ferry messages from Calais to London? Or court messengers riding from Normandy to Versailles? Such a system cannot convey the vast amounts of information needed to administer a country in a quick enough timeframe. No, decisions must be made locally, they must be made swiftly, and they must be made decisively.

For large countries, empires, and kingdoms, the only way to rule is through feudalism; one sovereign lord empowered by Christ and his emissary on earth, the Holy Father. And to him is allegiance sworn by vassals and feudal lords, who administer different parts of the realm in his place, and his name. This power structure capitulating to only one supreme authority ensures quick and decisive decision making through the realm, which will bring more peace and prosperity than the mob rule of democracy.

I know you're making an absurdist reduction to refute my logic, but there is a grain of truth in what you're saying. Direct democracy has never worked, and all democratic governments today are various hybrid representative democracy/republics and constitutional monarchies, headed by a representative ruling body and a selected head of state. I ask you, is feudalism so different from having several levels of government at the federal, state, and local level? 

The feudal system was to a large part wedded to the manorial system, so yes, there's a difference.

Offline MrWolfe

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #142 on: September 27, 2015, 11:19:36 PM »
I don't think anarchy can exist on a large scale, as it sets up a Prisoner's Dilemma.  All it takes is one person to realize that it's in their best interest to screw their neighbor and it all goes to shit.  What government does is change the incentives so that cooperation is (supposedly) always in your best interest.

On a small scale, however, anarchy is perfectly successful. Most families operate on anarchic principles. Granted, children are subject to the authority of adults, but between the adults in a family there is no clear hierarchy or authority, just simple cooperation for the good of the family.  There is a wonderful new trend of employee-owned companies that I'm really hoping will become the norm, but those companies still have a hierarchy of managers and sub-managers.

Let's take an example that we're all familiar with: a tabletop RPG group. You gather with a couple friends and sit down to play a cooperative game where you all make a story together.  Most of the time this cooperation works great and you all have a good time, but without the ever-present authority of a GM it can quickly break down because everyone has different expectations from the game. I've played cooperative games where no one and everyone is the GM, but it requires a lot of trust between the players and even so never lasts long because there is no clear direction to the story and no one to arbitrate the rules.

As a side note, there is a really interesting article from 1988 about how, from a game theory perspective, war itself is actually beneficial to all surviving participants and that the decision to make war is quite rationally sound, provided the risks are random and there is an enforced participation. Government may have evolved partially as a function of enforcing this participation.

I think the key term there is "surviving participants." And the benefits they talk about are things like "access to disputed resources" which can also be achieved by just sharing those resources in the first place. Granted, I only glanced at the paper. I'll have to go over it in more detail later.

You are right that anarchism tends to result in smaller communities, mainly because participation in anarchist communities is voluntary. Statist societies are able to achieve larger populations because they use force to make unwilling people go along with them. Personally, I think a smaller, enthusiastic population is more likely to achieve it's goals than a larger, partially resentful one, but YMMV.

To use your RPG example:

Anarchy means that only people who get along and generally want the same things from the game are going to form groups and play together. They may differ on some points and agree to make compromises but nobody is forcing anyone to do something they don't want to. If a group can't come to an agreement, they'll each keep looking until they find other people who want to play the kind of game they're interested in.

Democracy means that the the majority of players will decide how the game is run, and those in the minority will be forced to play along even if they don't want to and would rather be doing something else.

Monarchy means the DM decides how the game is going to go, and even if his players hate it they aren't allowed to leave.

Capitalist Oligarchy means the guy with the money decides what game to buy, and everybody else is forced to play that.

Personally my thoughts on anarchism and positions of authority are that it's best handled like S&M: External government may be violence, but if that's what you're into then fine. It requires significantly more trust, communication, and knowledge on everyone's part because there's a danger of serious harm if someone doesn't know what they're doing or isn't acting in good faith, but as long as there's informed consent and you've got your boundaries and safe words agreed on then hey, whatever floats your boat. Governments aren't really a type of power exchange that I'm into, but following the principles of anarchy also means respecting other people's personal choices.  :D

As for the prisoner's dilemma, keep in mind that the scenario hinges on the prosecutors trying to compel the prisoners to betray each other. They make it appear to each prisoner as though the best option is to betray their accomplice, when in fact this leads to a worse outcome for both prisoners as they betray each other in an attempt to "win." This deception benefits the prosecutors, because they want to get a confession from both of them. The second option (one betrays and one does not) is a trap, because in practice it will rarely occur--the best option is for the prisoners to keep their silence. Without the prosecutors pressuring them to cut a deal, the prisoners would be more likely to realize this and cooperate with each other.

The real lesson of the prisoner's dilemma is that those in a position of power and authority can trick others into acting against their own best interests. That works in statist societies because we have stratified positions of power and are taught to value "getting ahead" over cooperation. In an anarchist society, no one has authority over anyone else and the focus is on voluntary cooperation, so even if somebody tried that scam I doubt it would work.
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Offline stanprollyright

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #143 on: September 28, 2015, 12:35:39 AM »
I think the key term there is "surviving participants." And the benefits they talk about are things like "access to disputed resources" which can also be achieved by just sharing those resources in the first place. Granted, I only glanced at the paper. I'll have to go over it in more detail later.

As long as the risk of death is perceived as random, it is therefore distributed evenly among all participants, thus the amount of individual risk is relatively low. This actually explains the importance of morale in troops, and why routs occur in certain situations (where the randomness is removed by the cavalry charging at YOU).

You are right that anarchism tends to result in smaller communities, mainly because participation in anarchist communities is voluntary. Statist societies are able to achieve larger populations because they use force to make unwilling people go along with them. Personally, I think a smaller, enthusiastic population is more likely to achieve it's goals than a larger, partially resentful one, but YMMV.

I'm not the biggest fan of the social contract I've been forced into, and I definitely think we could restructure social hierarchies quite a bit. I'm just too cynical for anarchism though. It requires a lot of faith in the inherent goodness of humanity, which I don't have.

I do think we should decentralize a lot of our society and try to create more self-sustaining communities, but only if we take an equal number of steps towards globalism via the internet. I honestly believe that with our communication technology we could eventually have a worldwide direct democracy. I doubt I'll live to see it, though.

As for the prisoner's dilemma, keep in mind that the scenario hinges on the prosecutors trying to compel the prisoners to betray each other. They make it appear to each prisoner as though the best option is to betray their accomplice, when in fact this leads to a worse outcome for both prisoners as they betray each other in an attempt to "win." This deception benefits the prosecutors, because they want to get a confession from both of them. The second option (one betrays and one does not) is a trap, because in practice it will rarely occur--the best option is for the prisoners to keep their silence. Without the prosecutors pressuring them to cut a deal, the prisoners would be more likely to realize this and cooperate with each other.

Forget the prosecutors. You can structure the game in a lot of ways that don't involve prosecutors.  It's in the collective best interest for everyone to cooperate, but if you don't know how the other player is going to decide the rational option is betrayal. It's part of why the world is so slow reacting to climate change, it's why there was a nuclear arms race.

The real lesson of the prisoner's dilemma is that those in a position of power and authority can trick others into acting against their own best interests. That works in statist societies because we have stratified positions of power and are taught to value "getting ahead" over cooperation. In an anarchist society, no one has authority over anyone else and the focus is on voluntary cooperation, so even if somebody tried that scam I doubt it would work.

It might be in my best interest to take what I want and kill whoever is in my way, but governments set up laws and police and courts so that it is no longer in my best interest to do so.
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Offline MrWolfe

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #144 on: September 28, 2015, 03:39:20 AM »
As long as the risk of death is perceived as random, it is therefore distributed evenly among all participants, thus the amount of individual risk is relatively low. This actually explains the importance of morale in troops, and why routs occur in certain situations (where the randomness is removed by the cavalry charging at YOU).

Of course, in modern warfare the risk is never random: The soldiers take the risk, and the politicians who start the wars do not.

I'm not the biggest fan of the social contract I've been forced into, and I definitely think we could restructure social hierarchies quite a bit. I'm just too cynical for anarchism though. It requires a lot of faith in the inherent goodness of humanity, which I don't have.

I do think we should decentralize a lot of our society and try to create more self-sustaining communities, but only if we take an equal number of steps towards globalism via the internet. I honestly believe that with our communication technology we could eventually have a worldwide direct democracy. I doubt I'll live to see it, though.

See, I'm on the opposite side of the fence: I have zero faith in humanity's "inherent goodness" and for that reason think that humans should never be put in a position of power over each other--because they will abuse it. Saying: "I don't trust people, so we should put people in charge.*" Strikes me as absurd.

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Forget the prosecutors. You can structure the game in a lot of ways that don't involve prosecutors.  It's in the collective best interest for everyone to cooperate, but if you don't know how the other player is going to decide the rational option is betrayal. It's part of why the world is so slow reacting to climate change, it's why there was a nuclear arms race.

You're missing the point: The rational option is silence. The game proves that by it's outcome. The notion that you can choose betrayal and maybe get off free is a trap, just like the idea that you can get rich by playing the lottery. It's theoretically possible, but so exceedingly unlikely as to not be worth the risk. It's only when you have an external factor like the prosecutors misrepresenting your chances and pressuring you to confess that betrayal begins to seem like a better option.

And human behavior doesn't happen in a vacuum. A person raised in a society that reinforces social hierarchies will be conditioned toward accepting the deal, while a person from a society that places value on mutual cooperation and shuns any attempt to elevate oneself at the expense of others will be conditioned to see betrayal as the trap that it is. Presumably, if I'm running around in a gang with someone, I know enough about them to judge which of those categories they fall into--and can make my decision accordingly.

The game relies on some basic assumptions, at least three of which are false: Betrayal is not the optimal strategy, the other prisoner's decision is not random, and being unable to communicate with them after the start of the game does not prevent you from making an informed deduction as to what they will choose. You can't arbitrarily ignore these facts and still tout the game as a model for predicting human behavior. Likewise, if you reformulate the game you may change some of the basic assumptions that make it work, as well as rendering it irrelevant to modeling how people will act.

It might be in my best interest to take what I want and kill whoever is in my way, but governments set up laws and police and courts so that it is no longer in my best interest to do so.

First off, governments don't prevent theft and violence--they just attempt to claim a monopoly on it.  ;)

Secondly it isn't in your best interest to do so, and wouldn't be unless something artificially tilts the playing field in your favor. The whole reason we have societies in the first place is because cooperation is the most effective option. If you just start robbing and killing, people will no longer want to cooperate with you, and any temporary advantage you gain will quickly be offset by the fact that you've just ostracized yourself and possibly convinced everyone to band together against you.

Further, unless you are able to acquire overwhelming military resources, you, a lone person, are not even capable of "taking what you want and killing whoever gets in your way." And acquiring those resources requires a society that is set up to allow it. Modern capitalist governments, with their focus on accumulating wealth and power? Yeah, they'll enable the hell out of a wannabe despot. Though the people currently in charge may have something to say about you trying to horn in on their action. But an anarchist society that actively rejects those ideals and resists any attempt to gain power over others? Pfft, good luck.
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Offline stanprollyright

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #145 on: September 28, 2015, 04:13:31 AM »
Quote
The structure of the traditional Prisoners’ Dilemma can be generalized from its original prisoner setting. Suppose that the two players are represented by the colors, red and blue, and that each player chooses to either "Cooperate" or "Defect".

If both players cooperate, they both receive the reward R for cooperating. If both players defect, they both receive the punishment payoff P. If Blue defects while Red cooperates, then Blue receives the temptation payoff T, while Red receives the "sucker's" payoff, S. Similarly, if Blue cooperates while Red defects, then Blue receives the sucker's payoff S, while Red receives the temptation payoff T.

This can be expressed in normal form

Canonical PD payoff matrix
            Cooperate     Defect
Cooperate    R, R        S, T
Defect        T, S         P, P

and to be a prisoner's dilemma game in the strong sense, the following condition must hold for the payoffs:

T > R > P > S

The payoff relationship R > P implies that mutual cooperation is superior to mutual defection, while the payoff relationships T > R and P > S imply that defection is the dominant strategy for both agents. That is, mutual defection is the only strong Nash equilibrium in the game (i.e. the only outcome from which each player could only do worse by unilaterally changing strategy). The dilemma then is that mutual cooperation yields a better outcome than mutual defection but it is not the rational outcome because from a self-interested perspective, the choice to cooperate, at the individual level, is irrational.

It's one thing to say "the prisoner's dilemma doesn't apply here"; it's another to say it isn't a thing.

EDIT: I might reply to the rest of your post later, but until we can agree on some basic tenets of game theory there's no point.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 04:46:19 AM by stanprollyright »
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Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #146 on: September 28, 2015, 12:21:37 PM »
The biggest problem here, the biggest logical leap you're making is that people are not cooperating while saying that they cooperate.  This, right here, shows what you know about this:
Quote
unless you are able to acquire overwhelming military resources, you, a lone person, are not even capable of "taking what you want and killing whoever gets in your way."

That is the essence of what's wrong with that argument.  "Anarchy will succeed because people cooperate because it's in their best interests" followed by "no one will take advantage of the lack of a system because no one will cooperate and thus they can't because they're outnumbered".  Nothing enables a despot like a power vacuum.
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Offline MrWolfe

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #147 on: September 28, 2015, 12:50:09 PM »
Quote
The structure of the traditional Prisoners’ Dilemma can be generalized from its original prisoner setting. Suppose that the two players are represented by the colors, red and blue, and that each player chooses to either "Cooperate" or "Defect".

If both players cooperate, they both receive the reward R for cooperating. If both players defect, they both receive the punishment payoff P. If Blue defects while Red cooperates, then Blue receives the temptation payoff T, while Red receives the "sucker's" payoff, S. Similarly, if Blue cooperates while Red defects, then Blue receives the sucker's payoff S, while Red receives the temptation payoff T.

This can be expressed in normal form

Canonical PD payoff matrix
            Cooperate     Defect
Cooperate    R, R        S, T
Defect        T, S         P, P

and to be a prisoner's dilemma game in the strong sense, the following condition must hold for the payoffs:

T > R > P > S

The payoff relationship R > P implies that mutual cooperation is superior to mutual defection, while the payoff relationships T > R and P > S imply that defection is the dominant strategy for both agents. That is, mutual defection is the only strong Nash equilibrium in the game (i.e. the only outcome from which each player could only do worse by unilaterally changing strategy). The dilemma then is that mutual cooperation yields a better outcome than mutual defection but it is not the rational outcome because from a self-interested perspective, the choice to cooperate, at the individual level, is irrational.

It's one thing to say "the prisoner's dilemma doesn't apply here"; it's another to say it isn't a thing.

Oh it's totally a thing. It's just not a thing that applies to human behavior. :D

Let's go over the the table:
  • Both options carry a potential "good" reward and a potential "bad" reward.
  • The good and bad rewards for choosing to defect are both better than the equivalent rewards for choosing to cooperate.

Now let's look at the core assumptions of the standard Prisoner's Dilemma model:

  • Both prisoners understand the nature of the game.
But if they understand that, they know that choosing to defect is a trap, which will most likely net them worse consequences than if they cooperate. This is similar to how someone who understands the nature of tic-tac-toe knows better than to play it with anyone over the age of 5, because it will always end in a draw.

  • The prisoners have no loyalty to each other.
But even in the basic scenario of two fellow gang members being questioned by the police, that is an incredibly unlikely assumption. In an anarchist society were all associations are voluntary, it becomes even less likely. Without some outside influence, you simply don't remain part of a group if you feel no trust or loyalty towards it's members.

  • The prisoners have no way of knowing what the other prisoner will choose.
This works fine when dealing with a complete unknown or a truly random variable, but not in this situation as it's presented. If nothing else, knowing that the other prisoner understands the nature of the game and has no loyalty towards you (both required assumptions of the game) gives you some insight into what choice they are likely to make. This is, in fact, the entire point of the exercise--deducing the outcome based largely on those assumptions.

  • The prisoners have no opportunity for retribution or reward outside the game.
Again, exceedingly unlikely. And even if it were the case an iterative prisoner's dilemma provides multiple such opportunities within the game itself.

  • The prisoners  employ a very limited form of rationality in their decision making.
So that alone makes this not to apply to real life situations involving actual human beings--unless they're brain damaged or something. To make this thought experiment come out the way it's authors intend, they had to deliberately hamstring the reasoning capabilities of their theoretical subjects. Otherwise the prisoners would reach the same conclusion as the authors and realize that cooperation was in their best interests.

This whole scenario reeks of intellectual masturbation and classism. College-educated intellectuals with PhD's devising a scenario where two actors of subhuman intellect make a choice that ultimately screws them over, but whose folly is apparent to the designers? Yeah, that's just an excuse to congratulate yourself on being so much smarter than your (imaginary) intellectual inferiors.

It's worth noting that the original authors of the "Prisoner's Dilemma" did not present it in that format. Apparently we have this guy to thank for adding the classist twist of framing it as a perpetuation of the "dumb, backstabbing criminals" trope.

While this allowed it to gain popularity outside of academic circles (by playing on pervasive and often racist stereotypes), it also introduced all of the problems I've outlined above. In short, the very framing that makes people think the prisoner's dilemma would apply to real-world social interactions also breaks it by negating many of the core assumptions the problem relies on.

Framed as an actual prisoner's dilemma, it simply doesn't work.

The biggest problem here, the biggest logical leap you're making is that people are not cooperating while saying that they cooperate.  This, right here, shows what you know about this:
Quote
unless you are able to acquire overwhelming military resources, you, a lone person, are not even capable of "taking what you want and killing whoever gets in your way."

That is the essence of what's wrong with that argument.  "Anarchy will succeed because people cooperate because it's in their best interests" followed by "no one will take advantage of the lack of a system because no one will cooperate and thus they can't because they're outnumbered".  Nothing enables a despot like a power vacuum.

There is no power vacuum in an anarchist society. Power is shared equally, allowing no room for anyone to gain more power than their fellows.

Also, cooperation is not binary. It is entirely reasonable that a community will cooperate with actions that benefit it, while actively resisting those that run counter to it's interests. In an anarchist society, one person amassing power over others would be something that runs counter to that society's goals, and would thus be opposed.

As for how hierarchical societies evolved in the first place, that answer is rather involved, and you wouldn't listen to what I said anyway.  ;)

This post is already pretty long, but if you really wish to pursue that point, say so and I'll post an explanation, later.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 12:53:38 PM by MrWolfe »
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Offline stanprollyright

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #148 on: September 28, 2015, 07:12:29 PM »
Quote
The structure of the traditional Prisoners’ Dilemma can be generalized from its original prisoner setting. Suppose that the two players are represented by the colors, red and blue, and that each player chooses to either "Cooperate" or "Defect".

If both players cooperate, they both receive the reward R for cooperating. If both players defect, they both receive the punishment payoff P. If Blue defects while Red cooperates, then Blue receives the temptation payoff T, while Red receives the "sucker's" payoff, S. Similarly, if Blue cooperates while Red defects, then Blue receives the sucker's payoff S, while Red receives the temptation payoff T.

This can be expressed in normal form

Canonical PD payoff matrix
            Cooperate     Defect
Cooperate    R, R        S, T
Defect        T, S         P, P

and to be a prisoner's dilemma game in the strong sense, the following condition must hold for the payoffs:

T > R > P > S

The payoff relationship R > P implies that mutual cooperation is superior to mutual defection, while the payoff relationships T > R and P > S imply that defection is the dominant strategy for both agents. That is, mutual defection is the only strong Nash equilibrium in the game (i.e. the only outcome from which each player could only do worse by unilaterally changing strategy). The dilemma then is that mutual cooperation yields a better outcome than mutual defection but it is not the rational outcome because from a self-interested perspective, the choice to cooperate, at the individual level, is irrational.

It's one thing to say "the prisoner's dilemma doesn't apply here"; it's another to say it isn't a thing.

Oh it's totally a thing. It's just not a thing that applies to human behavior. :D

Let's go over the the table:
  • Both options carry a potential "good" reward and a potential "bad" reward.
  • The good and bad rewards for choosing to defect are both better than the equivalent rewards for choosing to cooperate.

Let me give you a current real-world example (since this is the politics thread). Everyone who isn't a coal or oil industry stooge knows that climate change is both real and man-made.  Every country is aware that if we don't collectively cut our emissions we are all screwed.  Yet...progress remains slow. Why? Because it's very much like the prisoner's dilemma.  If country A cuts emissions but other countries do not, we're all still screwed, and country A is at a huge economic disadvantage to boot.  If most other countries cut emissions and country A does not, the planet is still (presumably) saved and country A has a huge economic advantage.

Nuclear arsenals: same thing, except replace "cutting emissions" with "more nukes" and "economic (dis)advantage" with "military (dis)advantage"

The prisoner's dilemma is set up specifically to conceive of a circumstance where cooperation is optimal but irrational. Because situations like that occur all the time. To say that there is never, ever, ever a situation where cooperation is an irrational choice is absurd. By the way, "rational" has a very specific meaning in this context.

EDIT: What you're arguing seems to be a form of superrationality as opposed to perfect rationality. See also, Immanuel Kant's Categorical Imperative.

As for how hierarchical societies evolved in the first place, that answer is rather involved, and you wouldn't listen to what I said anyway.  ;)

I'd be pretty interested in that. I once wrote a short sketch wherein two cavemen are sitting around a campfire talking and smoking weed, and one has this bright idea: "What if we took seeds and put them in the ground?" And he goes on to lay out his whole theory about how seeds turn into plants if you take care of them, and that if they grew plants and took the seeds and planted those seeds, you could grow more plants, etc., etc... "Infinite food, man!" And then he lays out his whole idea of how people with different plants could trade food and seeds with each other, essentially outlining the ideas of property and government and civilization itself.  The other caveman listens quietly, and when his friend is finished he sits back and thinks for a minute. Finally he says, "That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard."
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 08:01:13 PM by stanprollyright »
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Offline SolEiji

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #149 on: September 28, 2015, 08:18:43 PM »
Apologies for interrupting the (interesting but familiar) political discourse right now, but hoo boy.  Carly Fiorina really doesn't want people voting for her.  Gung ho about the NSA.  Yeah, that'll get you places!  Jesus...
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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #150 on: September 28, 2015, 08:34:23 PM »
What's wrong with NSA? They found water on Mars, didn't they?
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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #151 on: September 28, 2015, 08:46:33 PM »
What's wrong with NSA? They found water on Mars, didn't they?

Must be all that spying.  They can't detect terrorists, but they can detect brinewater flows on other planets, so clearly their sensors are keen enough.
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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #152 on: September 28, 2015, 08:52:00 PM »
The real question, of course, is if they can see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch.
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Offline stanprollyright

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #153 on: September 28, 2015, 09:09:23 PM »
They probably have that information in a database somewhere, but no human has ever laid eyes on it.
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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #154 on: September 28, 2015, 09:13:43 PM »
To use your RPG example:

Anarchy means that only people who get along and generally want the same things from the game are going to form groups and play together. They may differ on some points and agree to make compromises but nobody is forcing anyone to do something they don't want to. If a group can't come to an agreement, they'll each keep looking until they find other people who want to play the kind of game they're interested in.

Democracy means that the the majority of players will decide how the game is run, and those in the minority will be forced to play along even if they don't want to and would rather be doing something else.

Monarchy means the DM decides how the game is going to go, and even if his players hate it they aren't allowed to leave.

Capitalist Oligarchy means the guy with the money decides what game to buy, and everybody else is forced to play that.
But what editions are they?
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Offline MrWolfe

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #155 on: September 28, 2015, 11:55:00 PM »
I'd be pretty interested in that. I once wrote a short sketch wherein two cavemen are sitting around a campfire talking and smoking weed, and one has this bright idea: "What if we took seeds and put them in the ground?" And he goes on to lay out his whole theory about how seeds turn into plants if you take care of them, and that if they grew plants and took the seeds and planted those seeds, you could grow more plants, etc., etc... "Infinite food, man!" And then he lays out his whole idea of how people with different plants could trade food and seeds with each other, essentially outlining the ideas of property and government and civilization itself.  The other caveman listens quietly, and when his friend is finished he sits back and thinks for a minute. Finally he says, "That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard."

Actually, that's pretty much it. The transition from nomadic hunter-gatherers to a settled agrarian society is what broke the original anarchist social structures. The abundance of food, along with being settled in one place, made it possible to accumulate wealth and resources beyond what could be carried with you, which lead to growing power disparities between cultures as well as individuals.

Having more resources allowed tribal populations to expand, changing the abundance provided by farming into a requirement needed to sustain their numbers. Being settled in one place and dependent on farming created a reason to claim and fight over territory that hadn't existed before. The rising populations only made this worse. Where before human tribes had been small enough and consumed so few resources that they didn't have to worry too much about another tribe living in the same area--or at least could easily move on if it became a problem--suddenly you had groups whose survival was tied to sole dominance over a particular area, and who could not easily relocate.

The apparent success of these communities inspired other tribes to join them, fueling further population expansion and an ever-greater need for resources. It also inspired envy and competition, leading to increasing violence and an escalating "arms race" as each community strove to keep it's military strength ahead of it's neighbors. Similar changes also occurred within communities, as people applied the same principles learned from dealing with rival communities on an individual level, and civilizations grew beyond the point where they could be easily sustained through mutual cooperation alone.

The division of labor, the modern concept of property ownership, and hierarchical social structures all developed as a result of this transition--as did pretty much every form of social inequality we see today. The biggest obstacle facing a return to anarchism is how to prevent that from happening again.

In that respect, I can kind of see your point about the prisoner's dilemma. I still think that some of the assumptions it relies on wouldn't apply in an anarchist society, but getting there requires people to first back down from the present social structure. And like the in prisoner's dilemma, choosing to default and stay with a system of stratified power appears safer than choosing cooperation and running the risk that your neighbor will default and try to forcefully annex you--even if that decision screws everybody over in the long run.

The real trick would be figuring out how to maintain an independent society capable of holding it's own against aggressive nations while still adhering to anarchist principles.

But what editions are they?

The anarchist group shifts between a heavily homebrewed version of Shadowrun and FATE, with some other games thrown in from time to time.

The democratic group is playing 3.x D&D, with some pathfinder stuff ported in and a raft of questionable 3rd party splatbooks. One PC is playing a hilariously un-optimized sword and board fighter with an amazing backstory because he wanted a more RP-focused campaign, the other three are playing Pun-Pun. The referee wanted to run a straight Pathfinder Core game, and is currently sobbing behind his DM screen.

The monarchy group is running the original Temple of Elemental Evil module. Gary Gygax is the DM.

The capitalist oligarchy group is playing in a Magic: the Gathering tournament at their high school. The son of the local game shop owner bribed the school to make it mandatory that all students participate. He's also the only one who had enough money to compile a full deck. In fact, he has several, and is loaning cards to players who need them at a complicated interest rate that compounds per card per use, as well as per minute, with stiff fines and penalties for damage, late return, and other various clauses. It's all in the contract he made everybody sign. He has recruited the cheerleading squad to spread rumors playing up the effectiveness of the cards with the best profit margins, and is employing the school bullies as enforcers. He stands to make a tidy profit off this venture, particularly since article 348 subsection C of the contract allows him to collect overdue loan amounts from a student's parents or other next of kin.

After bankrupting his classmates and their families he plans to invoke the indentured servitude clause and use his newfound labor force to expand and set up similar tournaments in the neighboring school districts.
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Offline Solo

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #156 on: September 29, 2015, 12:20:08 AM »
Quote
The real trick would be figuring out how to maintain an independent society capable of holding it's own against aggressive nations while still adhering to anarchist principles.
Give everyone a gun. Let aggressive nations invade and welcome them with open arms.
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Offline MrWolfe

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #157 on: September 29, 2015, 04:07:48 AM »
Give everyone a gun. Let aggressive nations invade and welcome them with open arms.

If only social problems were that simple. :rolleyes

Leaving aside the matter of guns vs tanks/jets/drones (modern warfare is becoming increasingly asymmetrical), there's also the fact that anarchy is opposed to violence--and doesn't automatically make an exception in cases of self defense. There's a lot of disagreement over when, if ever, the use of force is justified.

Personally, I think violence is always immoral*, but that being strictly moral is not always necessary. While I don't think society should ever condone the use of force as being justified, I also don't think it should be automatically condemned without looking at the circumstances.

In D&D terms, I see cases like self defense as being more morally neutral than inherently just or unjust--although the specifics are going to make a big difference there.

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Offline stanprollyright

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #158 on: September 29, 2015, 04:08:44 AM »
Actually, that's pretty much it. The transition from nomadic hunter-gatherers to a settled agrarian society is what broke the original anarchist social structures. The abundance of food, along with being settled in one place, made it possible to accumulate wealth and resources beyond what could be carried with you, which lead to growing power disparities between cultures as well as individuals.

Having more resources allowed tribal populations to expand, changing the abundance provided by farming into a requirement needed to sustain their numbers. Being settled in one place and dependent on farming created a reason to claim and fight over territory that hadn't existed before. The rising populations only made this worse. Where before human tribes had been small enough and consumed so few resources that they didn't have to worry too much about another tribe living in the same area--or at least could easily move on if it became a problem--suddenly you had groups whose survival was tied to sole dominance over a particular area, and who could not easily relocate.

The apparent success of these communities inspired other tribes to join them, fueling further population expansion and an ever-greater need for resources. It also inspired envy and competition, leading to increasing violence and an escalating "arms race" as each community strove to keep it's military strength ahead of it's neighbors. Similar changes also occurred within communities, as people applied the same principles learned from dealing with rival communities on an individual level, and civilizations grew beyond the point where they could be easily sustained through mutual cooperation alone.

The division of labor, the modern concept of property ownership, and hierarchical social structures all developed as a result of this transition--as did pretty much every form of social inequality we see today. The biggest obstacle facing a return to anarchism is how to prevent that from happening again.

Darn, I was hoping for something different than the commonly accepted version of pre-history :p

My one contention is the belief that violence actually increased as a result of the agrarian revolution, as there is plenty of evidence that paleolithic humans were extremely violent, if not savagely warlike.  Granted, this is a topic of heated debate among anthropologists and has been for a few decades, though I've found very little on the side of the "peaceful savage" that isn't pure conjecture on lack of motives or an appeal to ignorance.  There have been many fossilized human remains that bear evidence of violent death consistent with human weapons, including some with embedded arrowheads and other fragments of stone weapons. Also, many mass graves and cave paintings of battle.  There have been plenty of accounts by anthropologists and missionaries of violence and warfare among primitive groups.  Warfare was present in every agrarian culture before they met geographically. Even our closest evolutionary relatives engage in war.  Besides, somebody had to have killed off all the Neanderthals and Denisovans.
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Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #159 on: September 29, 2015, 04:17:00 AM »
To be fair, those two were sexed out of history as well as killed.  But yeah, you presume that all those negative human emotions are a) bad, b) only existing once structure comes along, and c) serve no purpose.  It's preposterous to make the claim that agriculture brought violence, envy, greed, etc.  Utterly preposterous.  Every single legitimate study on interaction shows that those emotions are present from the beginning.  No society needed, much less government.
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