Author Topic: The Politics Thread v2  (Read 180983 times)

Offline stanprollyright

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 248
  • The Looks
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #160 on: September 29, 2015, 04:48:00 AM »
To be fair, those two were sexed out of history as well as killed.

True, though all Neanderthal DNA is maternal, suggesting that a) we raped them but they didn't rape us, b) human women were incapable of having Neanderthal babies, or c) humans, but not Neanderthals, killed all half-blood babies they got their hands on.
Goats are like mushrooms
If you shoot a duck I'm scared of toasters

Offline oslecamo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #161 on: September 29, 2015, 04:57:55 AM »
b) doesn't really make much sense, and c) would too organized.

However option a), aka kill the other adult males and enslave/rape their women is a pretty common practice in most human history. So evidence points out that the neanderthals met a pretty nasty end.

Even society itself kinda  only works because of a constant violence threat. If you don't follow the laws, government is gonna send the cops/soldiers after you and deliver punishment.

Offline stanprollyright

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 248
  • The Looks
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #162 on: September 29, 2015, 05:47:18 AM »
Agree about c), though a) also has the same problem if that is the exclusive reason (like, not ONCE did the reverse happen?). I actually think b) is the most sensible, as Neanderthals were bigger, grew faster, had differently shaped heads. Since humans already have THE most difficult birth process in the animal kingdom due to the size of our heads, it actually makes a lot of sense for us to be unable have half-Neanderthal babies.
Goats are like mushrooms
If you shoot a duck I'm scared of toasters

Offline MrWolfe

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 376
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #163 on: September 29, 2015, 06:51:00 AM »
Darn, I was hoping for something different than the commonly accepted version of pre-history :p

My one contention is the belief that violence actually increased as a result of the agrarian revolution, as there is plenty of evidence that paleolithic humans were extremely violent, if not savagely warlike.  Granted, this is a topic of heated debate among anthropologists and has been for a few decades, though I've found very little on the side of the "peaceful savage" that isn't pure conjecture on lack of motives or an appeal to ignorance.  There have been many fossilized human remains that bear evidence of violent death consistent with human weapons, including some with embedded arrowheads and other fragments of stone weapons. Also, many mass graves and cave paintings of battle.  There have been plenty of accounts by anthropologists and missionaries of violence and warfare among primitive groups.  Warfare was present in every agrarian culture before they met geographically. Even our closest evolutionary relatives engage in war.  Besides, somebody had to have killed off all the Neanderthals and Denisovans.

Far be it from me to quote the party line, but it's commonly accepted for a reason--not the least of which because modern hunter-gatherer societies (of which there are still a few) display the same traits of relative peacefulness and egalitarianism. In the article I posted earlier by Dr. Peter Gray, he addresses this and mentions that one of the common mistakes made by anthropologists claiming to have found evidence of widespread violent behavior in hunter-gatherer tribes is that the tribes in question were often either not hunter-gatherers but agrarian--or formerly agrarian tribes who had been displaced and forced to resume a nomadic lifestyle.

As a general rule, I try not to put too much faith in any one individual's word, even if they are an expert. So let's go over those links you posted and see if they support or refute Dr. Gray's claims:

The first one claims evidence of widespread tribal warfare. Chief among the evidence presented are descriptions of settlements that either bear evidence of having been attacked or containing what appear to be fortifications intended to repel attacks.

Hunter-gatherers do not have settlements. Moving on.

The next link was a wikipedia article on the argument from ignorance logical fallacy. Yes I'm familiar with it.

Next: A fluff piece that's rather light on details, instead relying on numerous quotes rather than presenting the actual evidence. In fact, the only hard detail I could find was the description of a single fossilized skull in rather poor condition. Even if we accept the hypothesis that this individual was deliberately killed, a single violent death does not a social trend make.

On to Mass Graves. From the opening sentence: "one of the continent’s earliest farming communities." Agrarian. Not hunter-gatherer.

Even though your next link was an image search specifically for cave paintings of battle, very few seem to actually depict that. Of the images that show obvious fighting, most appear to show people hunting animals.

Your link to the article on the Yanomani tribe is interesting, because although it states that originally the people were considered warlike and violent, later studies concluded that this was due to the influence of western culture and a reaction to the "far-flung effects of the state presence."

The next link is to a book that quite frankly is dripping with bias. In the excerpts that are provided, the authors make repeated ad-hominem attacks against the current academic establishment without providing any actual support for their assertions that native american cultures were more violent than is currently accepted. They refer to this position as "revisionist" and "politicized", ignoring the fact that the current consensus is based on evidence that initial reports depicting native peoples as violent savages were racist fabrications intended to garner support for a campaign of colonial genocide.

Next is a wikipedia article about warfare among ancient cultures, none of whom were hunter-gatherers.

This is followed by a BBC article about violence among chimps. Ignoring the question of how relevant chimp behavior is to human societies, the article itself acknowledges that there are serious contentions within the academic community that this behavior is the result of human influence, rather than any innate violent tendencies.

Finally, you end with links to wikipedia articles on two extinct hominids, and the assumption that "somebody must have killed them off." Interesting how the articles on those species acknowledge that there is evidence they were not "killed off" but rather interbred with other hominid species.

Funny, it seems like the majority of those links supported Dr. Gray's contention. Good to know. :p

To be fair, those two were sexed out of history as well as killed.  But yeah, you presume that all those negative human emotions are a) bad, b) only existing once structure comes along, and c) serve no purpose.  It's preposterous to make the claim that agriculture brought violence, envy, greed, etc.  Utterly preposterous.  Every single legitimate study on interaction shows that those emotions are present from the beginning.  No society needed, much less government.

Care to provide some examples of these "legitimate studies?" Or some proof to back up your claims that the current scientific consensus is directly contradicted by the evidence? Because those are some pretty bold accusations. Hell, just claiming that all the legitimate studies agree is pretty hard to believe, considering that's usually not how science works.

I'm not saying it couldn't be true, but you haven't shown a particular tendency for knowing what you're talking about thus far. Kudos on the bit about neanderthals not being wiped out via genocide though. A lot of people still get that one wrong.

As for the other bit... who, exactly, claimed that agriculture brought "violence, envy, greed, etc."? I agree that would be a preposterous claim, but what I said was that the transition to agriculture increased violence--not created it.
A little madness goes a long way...

Offline oslecamo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #164 on: September 29, 2015, 08:30:32 AM »
Agree about c), though a) also has the same problem if that is the exclusive reason (like, not ONCE did the reverse happen?).
If the homo sapiens were curbstomping the neanderthals, indeed not very likely. Cows don't herd human women and force them to have babies for milk. Dogs don't keep humans as pets, feeding them their food remains.

I actually think b) is the most sensible, as Neanderthals were bigger, grew faster, had differently shaped heads. Since humans already have THE most difficult birth process in the animal kingdom due to the size of our heads, it actually makes a lot of sense for us to be unable have half-Neanderthal babies.
Horses are considerably bigger than donkeys, but a female donkey can still give birth to an half-donkey half-horse, an hinny.

Also tanget, but hyenas would like a word with you.

You know how feminists love to rant about how in hyenas the females have "dicks" that are bigger than the males?

Well, those "dicks" are actually their vaginas, and the newborns have to go through the whole length. The process is nastier than it sounds and hyenas have the higher chance of dying giving birth out of any mammal. They still survive as a species because they're very efficient pack hunters.

Offline Keldar

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1032
  • What's this button do?
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #165 on: September 29, 2015, 08:44:47 AM »
To be fair, those two were sexed out of history as well as killed.

True, though all Neanderthal DNA is maternal, suggesting that a) we raped them but they didn't rape us, b) human women were incapable of having Neanderthal babies, or c) humans, but not Neanderthals, killed all half-blood babies they got their hands on.
:huh
You forgot d) Dumb luck.  Like the dumb luck that gives us our mitochondrial Eve and Y chromosome Adam.  Because the only DNA you can determine which parent provided comes from those two sources, and it only requires passing through one generation of the opposite sex to filter it out.  If that evidence is accurate, it just means no one living has an unbroken Neanderthal patrilineage, but an unbroken matrilineage exists.   (That has been DNA tested so far.  You'd need hundreds of millions more tests to be certain.)

In other words, the evidence does not support a, b, nor c.  It simply does not speak on that subject. 
(Again, assuming your information is accurate.  I've never heard it from a reputable source.  And Facebook likes to spread misinformation.   :P  And I don't know if you FaceSpace.)

Offline stanprollyright

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 248
  • The Looks
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #166 on: September 29, 2015, 10:17:46 AM »
...

You're making my day. This is one of my favorite topics to discuss :D  And if you would be so kind as to relink the article by Dr. Peter Gray, I would appreciate taking a gander at it. I was unable to find it by googling his name and I think I remember you linking it in this thread several pages ago, though I don't remember exactly where or precisely which link I'm looking for.

Anyway, I assumed we were drawing the line at the Neolithic Revolution, where we began domesticating plants rather than simply growing them, and thus began building cities and setting up formal governments. I took this as the line because it is the cleanest place to make the separation, and is where most anthropologists draw it as well. The transition from pure hunter-gatherer to agrarian happened gradually (and incompletely) over tens of thousands of years (with many groups cultivating plants while remaining semi-nomadic), while the Neolithic Revolution was only 1-2000 years and represents a much more dramatic change. The other reason I think this is a better place to draw the line is that this is but a tangent on a discussion of the merits of anarchy vs. statehood, rather than agricultural vs. hunter-gatherer.  It is also important to note that the switch to agrarianism and semi-agrarianism was not a choice so much as an adaptation of necessity, not the least of which was caused by our own over-predation of large mammals. A return to hunter-gatherer lifestyle would not be feasible without a return to hunter-gatherer population levels.

In general, I do agree that the advent of agriculture brought on greater violence, but that is to be expected with greater population density. I do not have reason to believe, however, that the amount of violence relative to total population was significantly higher.  In my view, the chances of dying a violent death at the hands of other homos were more or less the same, with a slight increase right after the advent of agriculture.  The problem with talking about pre-agrarian societies is that low population density means less evidence, compounded by the fact that non-sedentary lifestyles also leave less evidence.  This is why I see the argument from ignorance in many Rousseauvian "noble savage" arguments.

There are other examples of wounds in paleolithic people that were clearly made by arrows or spears.

If the Yanomani tribe's violence cannot be seen as reliable evidence because of the influence of agrarian societies, neither can modern hunter-gatherer peacefulness. They could very well have developed such avoidance strategies as a result of interaction with better armed agrarian societies, and regardless, such avoidance strategies could be the reason those societies in particular survived with their way of life intact.

Chimp warfare is a well-documented thing. Many other apes also demonstrate intraspecies violence.  Chimps are our closest evolutionary relative, followed by the other great apes, and while it isn't conclusive by any means, it lends credence to the idea that intraspecies violence was present in a common ancestor and thus predates humans by a great deal.

My statement about killing off Neanderthals and Denisovans was partially made in jest because we obviously did absorb their populations into our own. However, it is extremely likely that there were also conflicts between them and us, and we were clearly the victors. If they were close enough to reproduce, they were close enough to compete for resources as well.
Goats are like mushrooms
If you shoot a duck I'm scared of toasters

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #167 on: September 29, 2015, 10:29:22 AM »
I want to hit everyone who automatically assumes that welfare and poverty = not working hard, and that hard work apparently automatically equals success and being paid well. That... is not how things work. Or have ever worked.

Offline Solo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1778
  • Sorcelator Supreme
    • View Profile
    • Solo's Compiled Works
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #168 on: September 29, 2015, 11:17:25 AM »
Peasant.
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline MrWolfe

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 376
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #169 on: September 29, 2015, 07:01:20 PM »
You're making my day. This is one of my favorite topics to discuss :D  And if you would be so kind as to relink the article by Dr. Peter Gray, I would appreciate taking a gander at it. I was unable to find it by googling his name and I think I remember you linking it in this thread several pages ago, though I don't remember exactly where or precisely which link I'm looking for.

Likewise. :D

And it's refreshing to have an actual debate on these topics (on the internet of all places!) that doesn't devolve into a screaming flame war.

You can find the article here. In the interest of full disclosure, it is hosted on a site with a definite political bias--part of why I looked up the author's credentials and sought out corroborating evidence when I originally came across it. Going back over it, it turns out he actually mentions the Yanomami tribe specifically.

What I find more interesting are the social mechanisms he describes, which he hypothesizes are responsible for the relatively idyllic state of these societies. Even if all his contentions about modern and historical hunter-gatherers were shown to be wrong, those ideas sound like they could work.

Anyway, I assumed we were drawing the line at the Neolithic Revolution, where we began domesticating plants rather than simply growing them, and thus began building cities and setting up formal governments. I took this as the line because it is the cleanest place to make the separation, and is where most anthropologists draw it as well. The transition from pure hunter-gatherer to agrarian happened gradually (and incompletely) over tens of thousands of years (with many groups cultivating plants while remaining semi-nomadic), while the Neolithic Revolution was only 1-2000 years and represents a much more dramatic change. The other reason I think this is a better place to draw the line is that this is but a tangent on a discussion of the merits of anarchy vs. statehood, rather than agricultural vs. hunter-gatherer.  It is also important to note that the switch to agrarianism and semi-agrarianism was not a choice so much as an adaptation of necessity, not the least of which was caused by our own over-predation of large mammals. A return to hunter-gatherer lifestyle would not be feasible without a return to hunter-gatherer population levels.

I confess, it sounds like you're better versed on the details of this period than I am. My understanding is that the increase of violent and hierarchical behavior occurred on a case by case basis, either as a result of the social changes stemming from a group taking up agriculture, through contact with such a group, or through the indirect effects of an agricultural society's presence. For example, in the article you linked to about chimps, deforestation was mentioned as a possible cause for the behavior. Even groups that had never encountered humans could have been affected by the shrinking habitats and increased competition due to an influx of displaced animals caused by logging on the perimeter of their jungles.

Regarding the over-predation hypothesis: Most discussions of the neolithic revolution that I've come across attribute it to the changing climate at the end of the ice age. In other words, it's not so much that we killed off all the animals and had to start eating plants, but that the environment changed and we adapted while other species did not. Apparently there is some debate about which of these theories is most accurate.

In general, I do agree that the advent of agriculture brought on greater violence, but that is to be expected with greater population density. I do not have reason to believe, however, that the amount of violence relative to total population was significantly higher.  In my view, the chances of dying a violent death at the hands of other homos were more or less the same, with a slight increase right after the advent of agriculture.  The problem with talking about pre-agrarian societies is that low population density means less evidence, compounded by the fact that non-sedentary lifestyles also leave less evidence.  This is why I see the argument from ignorance in many Rousseauvian "noble savage" arguments.

It definitely seems like it would be harder to say for certain under the circumstances. However from what I've read the hypothesis that pre-agrarian tribes were less violent is informed partially from observations of current hunter gatherers. It's not 100% conclusive, and you make an interesting counterpoint that such behavior could have adapted in response to previous conditions of violence. Still, I wouldn't call it arguing from ignorance. Given what evidence we have, it strikes me as more reasonable to at least tentatively conclude that prehistoric hunter-gatherers were also more peaceful than their settled counterparts.

Two main points I would base this conclusion on are that A) Cooperation within the tribe was more critical to survival, as ice ages suck and don't leave a lot of room for bickering lest everybody starve and B) I don't see how there would be much incentive for one tribe to attack another under these circumstances.

The relative wealth of each tribe is capped by what can be carried, so tribe A is unlikely to have significantly more wealth or resources than tribe B, and even if they did what would be the point of trying to take it when you can't carry two tribes worth of stuff? There's a reason a lot of GM's handwave carting all the loot back to town after an adventure. :p

And again, in an ice age every tribe member becomes a critical resource. Why would you risk attacking a better equipped tribe when you could just hunt game animals? I could see this happening briefly in times of scarcity, but there would only be a brief window in which this would be effective before things stabilized. (Either by a return to previous levels of abundance, or everyone being equally worse off.) Even if your goal was to acquire slaves, the trust and cooperation required by the hunter gatherer lifestyle makes this a risky prospect at best. Cannibalism could be a potential motivation, but between the health risks and fact that humans are generally more dangerous than other potential prey, I doubt the idea would be sustainable as a widespread practice.

In short, raiding doesn't really become a viable strategy until you have settlements.

There are other examples of wounds in paleolithic people that were clearly made by arrows or spears.

If the Yanomani tribe's violence cannot be seen as reliable evidence because of the influence of agrarian societies, neither can modern hunter-gatherer peacefulness. They could very well have developed such avoidance strategies as a result of interaction with better armed agrarian societies, and regardless, such avoidance strategies could be the reason those societies in particular survived with their way of life intact.

Chimp warfare is a well-documented thing. Many other apes also demonstrate intraspecies violence.  Chimps are our closest evolutionary relative, followed by the other great apes, and while it isn't conclusive by any means, it lends credence to the idea that intraspecies violence was present in a common ancestor and thus predates humans by a great deal.

My statement about killing off Neanderthals and Denisovans was partially made in jest because we obviously did absorb their populations into our own. However, it is extremely likely that there were also conflicts between them and us, and we were clearly the victors. If they were close enough to reproduce, they were close enough to compete for resources as well.

Regarding all this: While I'm not contending that violence never occurred in hunter gatherer societies, the relevant point in the context of this discussion is whether it occurred less often than in settled communities. Providing evidence of some violence does not indicate equal or greater violence, particularly in the face of evidence that the neolithic revolution did in fact trigger an uptick in violent conflict.

Bringing this back to the original discussion of anarchy, one important thing to note is that anarchy defines "violence" a bit more broadly than most people are used to. The Non-Aggression Principle, which forms the backbone of anarchist philosophy, defines aggression as "any encroachment on another person's life, liberty, or justly acquired property, or an attempt to obtain from another via deceit what could not be consensually obtained." As a result, anarchists see any external government as a form of aggression against it's people, leading to the maxim: "If the individual has the right to govern himself, all external government is tyranny."

Naturally, governments tend to disagree with this notion. :rolleyes

I bring this up because although you could argue that physical violence has decreased in modern societies (I have my doubts, but the argument could be made), from an anarchist perspective, the prevalence of governments and hierarchical power structures makes modern society unequivocally more violent than the stateless hunter-gatherer communities believed to have existed prior to the neolithic revolution.

Further, even if we were to conclude that ancient hunter gatherer societies were roughly as violent per-capita as the agrarian communities that followed--with the spike in violence during the neolithic revolution being a transient increase rather than an upward trend--that still doesn't address the claims that modern hunter gatherers are more peaceful and egalitarian. The existence of such communities demonstrates that anarchy can work without devolving into violence and aggression, regardless of where they sit on the historical timeline.

To address an earlier point you made: You are correct about the hunter-gatherer lifestyle not being sustainable with humanity's present numbers--though many would argue those numbers aren't sustainable anyway. Nevertheless, it does present an obstacle, and any social controls which might conceivably reduce our population to a size where it would be viable would also violate the hell out of the NAP.

Personally, I would not favor a return to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. Although I am convinced it offers many benefits I would rather we find a way to adapt the social mechanisms which reinforce voluntary, peaceful cooperation without losing too much of what we presently have. Granted, I'm not particularly sure how we would achieve that. The first hurdle is just convincing people that anarchy doesn't look like something out of Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome.* Figuring out what a functional anarchist society would look like requires getting people on board with the idea of creating one in the first place.

*
(click to show/hide)


I want to hit everyone who automatically assumes that welfare and poverty = not working hard, and that hard work apparently automatically equals success and being paid well. That... is not how things work. Or have ever worked.

Hear fricking hear! :clap

Especially considering how much goddamn work living on public assistance is. The lower classes labor to support the luxuries of those above them, that's how every stratified social system works. But since it's such a shit deal, the upper classes usually try to paint their position as being based on merit rather than exploitation, and trick those under them into fighting among themselves. All this bitching about welfare and the poor amounts to complaining that you have to occasionally feed your servants. Plus it sidesteps the fact that each politicians' paycheck accounts for way more tax money than some poor schmuck on welfare is getting.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 07:09:19 PM by MrWolfe »
A little madness goes a long way...

Offline stanprollyright

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 248
  • The Looks
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #170 on: September 30, 2015, 02:49:04 AM »
Thank you for the link, and for debating me in a civilized an thought-provoking fashion.  I tire of forum line-by-line refutation, so allow me to post my thoughts in paragraph form once again.

I find the the idea that a nomadic lifestyle makes intergroup violence unnecessary to be far-fetched.  First, being nomads does not mean that hunter-gatherers never stayed in the same place, or returned to somewhere they'd been. It is much more consistent with animal behavior and that of modern nomads to stay in an area for a few days, weeks, or even a whole season, often cycling seasonally in a local area.  Territorialism can be found in nomadic animals, such as wolves, and I do not believe it to be a learned trait in humans, but rather an evolved one; as such, 10,000 years of agriculture would not be enough to change that.  It takes up to 100X the land to feed hunter-gatherers than it does to feed agrarian people, and moving people are infinitely more likely to run into each other than non-moving people. Given all the above, it seems rather likely that violence between groups over resources or land would be common.  Steven Pinker lists several reasons for violence among humans in The Better Angels of Our Nature, all of which would be just as valid for nomadic hunter-gatherers:
Quote
Pinker rejects what he calls the "Hydraulic Theory of Violence" – the idea "that humans harbor an inner drive toward aggression (a death instinct or thirst for blood), which builds up inside us and must periodically be discharged. Nothing could be further from contemporary scientific understanding of the psychology of violence." Instead, he argues, research suggests that "aggression is not a single motive, let alone a mounting urge. It is the output of several psychological systems that differ in their environmental triggers, their internal, their neurological basis, and their social distribution." He examines five such systems:

1. Predatory or Practical Violence: violence "deployed as a practical means to an end"[2]:613
2. Dominance: the "urge for authority, prestige, glory, and power." Pinker argues that dominance motivations can occur within individuals and coalitions of "racial, ethnic, religious, or national groups"[2]:631
3. Revenge: the "moralistic urge toward retribution, punishment, and justice"[2]:639
4. Sadism: the "deliberate infliction of pain for no purpose but to enjoy a person's suffering..."[2]:660
5. Ideology: a "shared belief system, usually involving a vision of utopia, that justifies unlimited violence in pursuit of unlimited good."[2]

I also find it hard to believe that hunters (trained killers), armed with weapons, with no laws or doctrines telling them otherwise, would hesitate in the least to use their skills and weapons against other humans if they felt threatened or offended or that they had something to gain from doing so.

Concerning Chimpanzees: Given the complex cognitive mechanisms involved in organized warfare, we could not have taught war to them. While we may have caused the scarcity that led to chimp wars in recent times, they either developed war on their own or received it from this guy.

Overkill hypothesis: The theories of human over-predation and extinction by climate change are not mutually exclusive.  There are several extinctions that are not adequately explained by changing climate alone, but do line up perfectly with human arrival. In all likelihood, both were significant contributors to the extinction of many species.

You might find this article interesting. It's a pseudo-review of Steven Pinker's Better Angels, which makes the case that violence in all forms has steadily declined in all forms (form war to slavery to spankings) since the beginning of history (and pre-history).
Goats are like mushrooms
If you shoot a duck I'm scared of toasters

Offline Solo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1778
  • Sorcelator Supreme
    • View Profile
    • Solo's Compiled Works
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #171 on: September 30, 2015, 01:46:54 PM »
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline MrWolfe

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 376
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #172 on: September 30, 2015, 02:17:23 PM »
Fuck the Pope

Okay, this came up while I was typing and I want to address this first. Stanprollyright, I'll have a response for you in a bit, I promise.

So, I have to side-eye this one a bit. Seems like the journalists are jumping to conclusions in pursuit of a flashy headline. Meeting with someone does not automatically mean condoning their actions. In fact, the Pope also met with a gay rights activist back in July. There's been no official statement from the Vatican, so we only have Davis' word as to the nature and content of the meeting--and her word seems to contradict some of the Pope's previous statements regarding homosexuality.

Since Kim Davis is already misrepresenting the constitution, I wouldn't put it past her to misrepresent the Pope if he in fact met with her to tell her to chill out and stop undermining the bridges he's been trying to build between the Catholic Church and the LGBTQ community.

This is all just supposition though. So far we only have the word of a delusionally self-absorbed twit who, shockingly, claims the Pope supports her. :rolleyes
A little madness goes a long way...

Offline stanprollyright

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 248
  • The Looks
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #173 on: September 30, 2015, 02:50:47 PM »
Fuck the Pope

While this pope is certainly much better than his predecessors, this is pretty disappointing.  Though, no one has said what was discussed...
Goats are like mushrooms
If you shoot a duck I'm scared of toasters

Offline dman11235

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2571
  • Disclaimer: not at full capacity yet
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #174 on: September 30, 2015, 03:06:17 PM »
Except for her and I don't trust what she said.
My Sig's Handy Haversack  Need help?  Want to see what I've done?  Want to see what others have done well?  Check it out.

Avatar d20

Offline bhu

  • Uncle Kittie
  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 16305
  • Fnord bitches
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #175 on: September 30, 2015, 05:18:48 PM »
Vatican has confirmed the visit.  Odd she's so happy to meet the pope considering her brand of christianity doesn't accept Catholics as christians and calls them idolators.

Offline dman11235

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2571
  • Disclaimer: not at full capacity yet
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #176 on: September 30, 2015, 05:47:19 PM »
Oh, yeah, the meeting happened, I'm just saying I don't believe what she says they talked about and stuff.
My Sig's Handy Haversack  Need help?  Want to see what I've done?  Want to see what others have done well?  Check it out.

Avatar d20

Offline Libertad

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3618
    • View Profile
    • My Fantasy and Gaming Blog
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #177 on: September 30, 2015, 06:33:48 PM »
I want to hit everyone who automatically assumes that welfare and poverty = not working hard, and that hard work apparently automatically equals success and being paid well. That... is not how things work. Or have ever worked.

On TV Tropes I once met such a person who was convinced that poverty was a choice.  It later turned out that their avatar and username was the same one as a CharOps person over on GiantITP.  They also corrected folks who said that America was a democracy, saying that the US government is instead a 'federal republic.'

For some reason I found this combination of traits to be hilarious.

Offline Solo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1778
  • Sorcelator Supreme
    • View Profile
    • Solo's Compiled Works
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #178 on: September 30, 2015, 07:04:21 PM »
So, I have to side-eye this one a bit. Seems like the journalists are jumping to conclusions in pursuit of a flashy headline. Meeting with someone does not automatically mean condoning their actions. In fact, the Pope also met with a gay rights activist back in July. There's been no official statement from the Vatican, so we only have Davis' word as to the nature and content of the meeting--and her word seems to contradict some of the Pope's previous statements regarding homosexuality.
This comes after a speech to Congress in which the Pope warned against the changing nature of marriage, and the need to preserve religious freedom.
2+2=4
At the end of the day, the Pope is Catholic and believes that birth control is an abomination because the purpose of sex is for procreation, homosexuality is sin, and marriage is between one man and one woman.

Oh, and let's not forget that the purpose of organized religion is to control and oppress the proletariat.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 07:08:54 PM by Solo »
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #179 on: September 30, 2015, 08:10:28 PM »
Labour MP's: please realise that although there was not an absolute majority in the votes of the party members in the leadership election, the thousands of new recruits from the other two voting groups have almost certainly changed that. What you individually think, whilst relevant, is not a reason to keep arguing with the democratically chosen leader, as you're trying to insist to the party you're wrong.

Also do remember that the tories plan to merge a bunch of constituencies. Being the living problems they are, probably by picking as many Labour choices as possible. This will inevitably mean the constituency parties get to vote on members.

You might not be getting forced out, but FFS realise that you're screwing your chances of getting reselected when you piss off the membership. <.<