Author Topic: The Politics Thread v2  (Read 181049 times)

Offline MrWolfe

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #260 on: October 27, 2015, 09:50:45 PM »
I'd argue that Sanders doesn't fit, though I will admit bias.  I would recommend checking him out and then remembering to vote in the primaries AND the midterms. 

Though you're free to make your own choice if his views fit yours or not, I would give the following argument.  We have a voter turnout problem in the country.  Young people don't vote, burned out and disillusioned by a gerrymandered system and politicians who "play the game" and make it a job rather than a service.  Old people vote in mass and lockstep with their parties.  For the longest time, this has skewed things rightward towards the aging conservative population.

Right now, there is an excited youthful base all set up for Sanders.  Hillary meanwhile is more status quo, she'll probably be ok, but it's more of the same.  If Hillary wins the primary, do you think the energized base who have been asking for "actual hope and change this time" will suddenly drop that and vote for her?  Some of them will, sure, will vote out of fear to keep the GOP out.  But some of them, I'd argue a lot of them, will not vote out of disillusionment again since "Hillary is inevitable" has been chanted in our ears since 2008.  And because Sanders has drawn independants and even some moderate republicans who respect his integrity and are disgusted by the state of the GOP, some of them may decide to go accelerationist and vote for the craziest guy in hopes for massive backlash in 2020.  While I don't agree with that logic, I know it exists, and I have to consider it.  Just remember, high voter turnout is good!  Not only is it good for democracy to work in the first place, also remember that when voter turnout is high, Dems win.  When it's low... Republicans win.  Just look at 2014 midterms.  That was a trainwreck.

Sanders is a smidge different, I'll admit. But ultimately he's playing the same game as the rest of them--he's just using a different strategy to do it.

As for voting, I'm morally opposed to the practice. Voting for public office is like voting for who you want to be enslaved by: It lends a veneer of choice and legitimacy to a reprehensible violation of human rights. There's no "I don't want to be a slave" option on the ballot. Worse, by voting you are attempting to assert your desires over the rights of others--actively participating in the process of government oppression.

As an anarchist, I cannot support or take part in such an act.

A lot of people try to argue that by not voting, you're letting X or Y faction win, but the fact is no matter who you vote for, it's the state that wins. Maybe if enough people actively (and loudly) refused to vote, it would send a message--but unfortunately most people are so willing to accept a master that they vote to strip everyone of their freedom just so they can get the master they want.

If that were true, then you'd see no meaningful difference between elected officials.  They'd all be following the same polls, more or less. 

There are sharp, demonstrable, and quantifiable distinctions between the activities of elected officials, especially less obvious ones (e.g., the actions of administrative agencies, which typically are things that are not directly polled). 

I really don't see any meaningful difference between them. Each has their own segments of the population that they pander to, so the rhetoric and policies will differ depending on who they're courting, but at the end of the day all any of them want is power.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #261 on: October 27, 2015, 10:20:28 PM »
Reminder: there is a political theory thread, now. That's where the discussion of theoretical political systems goes. Especially if you're going to blatantly ignore the differences between candidates because they're not raging from outside the system at the system that you either work with or all-out revolt against (though the US has a particularly narrow band, so far as I can tell). Sure, my preference is for anarcho-communism, but I'm still perfectly able to judge where the fuck everyone's standing relevant to that. Plus whose policies are more likely to push towards totalitarianism and/or (though increasingly, and inherently contradictory) unrestrained capitalism.

(Though I will say one thing: if everyone dissatisfied with the political landscape stops voting, we're just going to be going through political history in reverse)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 10:36:46 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline Solo

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #262 on: October 27, 2015, 11:51:53 PM »
Quote
As an anarchist, I cannot support or take part in such an act.
IIRC, left wing anarchists in the 20th century have attempted to use politics and voting as a means of reigning in government excesses along with strikes and protests. In fact, I am fairly sure that the idea that revolution could occur without violence was one of the reasons they got kicked out of the Communist movement.
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Offline bhu

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #263 on: October 28, 2015, 02:10:03 AM »
Hillary is more of a centrist than a liberal.  Sanders has pulled her to the left in the primary, but primary speeches mean nothing.  She'll likely govern in a manner similar to Bill, by waiting to see what the polls say before acting.

Isn't that pretty much all of them?

Not to the lengths clinton went.  Republicans are pretty much gerrymandered to hell and back now, they only need to pay attention to their sugar daddies who pay for their campaign, and pay lip service to the promises they break to their constituency.  Polls show americans strongly resent their attitude towards planned parenthood, yet they forge ahead anyway.  Some of them do listen to polls and swing the way they indicate, but they listen to narrow polls of specific slices of the electorate.  Clinton swung whichever way the majority polled.  It's like he had an ideology, but if 55% of america polled in the opposite direction, well then fuck ideology.  He did whatever was expedient.  Not saying they don't all do it occasionally but clinton made it his signature style.  Most people state a policy, see the polls, walk it back or change if necessary.  Clinton says "what do you want the policy to be" and waits for the polls to come back in, and then takes a position. 

Offline Solo

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #264 on: October 28, 2015, 02:13:29 AM »
If Clinton didn't compromise in order to get re-elected, he could not continue to serve the American people by compromising in order to keep getting re-elected. Good thing we've limited presidents to two terms, otherwise we'd have to wait twelve years for a politician to really start delivering.
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Offline KellKheraptis

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #265 on: October 28, 2015, 07:50:14 AM »
Reminder: there is a political theory thread, now. That's where the discussion of theoretical political systems goes. Especially if you're going to blatantly ignore the differences between candidates because they're not raging from outside the system at the system that you either work with or all-out revolt against (though the US has a particularly narrow band, so far as I can tell). Sure, my preference is for anarcho-communism, but I'm still perfectly able to judge where the fuck everyone's standing relevant to that. Plus whose policies are more likely to push towards totalitarianism and/or (though increasingly, and inherently contradictory) unrestrained capitalism.

(Though I will say one thing: if everyone dissatisfied with the political landscape stops voting, we're just going to be going through political history in reverse)

An old anarchist adage comes to mind: You can do way more damage from the inside ;)

Offline Solo

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #266 on: October 28, 2015, 01:40:59 PM »
I thought that was a Greek saying.
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline MrWolfe

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #267 on: October 28, 2015, 02:40:35 PM »
More of an observation, really. I wouldn't be surprised if it predates both.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #268 on: October 28, 2015, 04:25:50 PM »
My brother just told me about an Aunt,
who is ALL IN for Ben Carson.
If my Grandmom or Granddad were still alive
they'd have some very serious words with her.
Honey that's not what we learned in Divinity school.

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Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #269 on: October 28, 2015, 07:48:51 PM »
Okay, NOW Ryan is speaker.
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Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #270 on: October 28, 2015, 10:38:55 PM »
Let me recap the debate for you guys.

"Here's a question about x."
"Great question.  Let me talk about y.  Hillary Clinton will literally KILL YOUR BABIES SOULS IF YOU ELECT A DEMOCRAT!  What I would do instead is the exact same things."
"Thank you for your response.  Here's a question about y."
"That's a stupid question.  Let me talk about x.  DEMOCRATS ARE LITERALLY SATAN.  What we should do instead is this other thing that is literally the same things I just denounced as evil."
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Offline Solo

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #271 on: October 29, 2015, 12:57:58 AM »
"Candidate, you previously said x."
"I never said that. In fact, I said the opposite, and always have."
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #272 on: October 29, 2015, 01:04:31 AM »
At least this is slightly more responsive than our PM seems to be.

Get asked the same question, televised, six times in a row. Doesn't give a remotely straight answer. Even the supporting newspapers seem to be baffled.

Offline stanprollyright

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #273 on: October 29, 2015, 01:28:46 AM »
If that were true, then you'd see no meaningful difference between elected officials.  They'd all be following the same polls, more or less. 

There are sharp, demonstrable, and quantifiable distinctions between the activities of elected officials, especially less obvious ones (e.g., the actions of administrative agencies, which typically are things that are not directly polled). 

I really don't see any meaningful difference between them. Each has their own segments of the population that they pander to, so the rhetoric and policies will differ depending on who they're courting, but at the end of the day all any of them want is power.

The difference is what they want to do with that power, and how they plan to accomplish their goals.  We all know that politicians' words and actions don't always line up.  "Pandering" to get votes is just vague words and promises, whereas the act of governing is in the details and compromises.
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Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #274 on: October 29, 2015, 01:49:17 AM »
to be fair, I do trust a number of them to follow through on their promises.  It's just that the promises include trampling on the constitution more than they accuse Obama of doing, and freely admitting to wanting to get rid of parts.

Also, I'm not so sure this is the best strategy for Graham: "Vote for me!  I'm not smart!"
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Offline bhu

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #275 on: October 29, 2015, 03:07:35 AM »
It can't be any worse than "I stabbed someone as a child.  Let me ensure all of you heard that by eternally repeating in interviews that I stabbed someone as a child.  But I'm different now.  I've only been Republican less than a year, and I'm taking time off for a book tour, but I can assure you my stabbing days are over, and I'm one of you now.  Did I mention I stabbed someone as a child, cause I so totally stabbed someone."

Offline veekie

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #276 on: October 29, 2015, 06:08:12 AM »
It can't be any worse than "I stabbed someone as a child.  Let me ensure all of you heard that by eternally repeating in interviews that I stabbed someone as a child.  But I'm different now.  I've only been Republican less than a year, and I'm taking time off for a book tour, but I can assure you my stabbing days are over, and I'm one of you now.  Did I mention I stabbed someone as a child, cause I so totally stabbed someone."
Beats things here.

Apparently filing a police report on the prime minister's embezzlement case is Economic Sabotage and something you can be jailed for. :V
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Offline Keldar

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #277 on: October 29, 2015, 06:45:23 AM »
I liked Carson's "I never worked with those people!  I worked with those people.  Why would you say I worked with those people when those people merely pay me to do things for them.  They're great."  A natural, boring, insane, politician.

Offline bhu

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #278 on: October 29, 2015, 03:07:26 PM »
It can't be any worse than "I stabbed someone as a child.  Let me ensure all of you heard that by eternally repeating in interviews that I stabbed someone as a child.  But I'm different now.  I've only been Republican less than a year, and I'm taking time off for a book tour, but I can assure you my stabbing days are over, and I'm one of you now.  Did I mention I stabbed someone as a child, cause I so totally stabbed someone."
Beats things here.

Apparently filing a police report on the prime minister's embezzlement case is Economic Sabotage and something you can be jailed for. :V

Good lord Veekie, where do you live?

Offline Samwise

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #279 on: October 30, 2015, 02:20:39 AM »
Hillary is in no way a centrist.
She would be simply a doctrinaire Alinskyite, but she is too caught up in her pursuit of personal aggrandizement to be a mere ideologue. That makes her profoundly less competent than Bill, though the level of danger she presents is dependent on other circumstances.

Bill is not a centrist either.
He is more a good ole boy with pretensions of being an Alinskyite. That is why he was capable of going along to get along, which still enabled him to promote an ideology that he didn't particularly care about it, while just trying to have a good time.

Sanders is pretty much a standard Marxist, with pretensions of competence equal to Lenin, which is why he thinks he can doubletalk his way through "defending" gun rights for decades, promising "free" everything, and all his other rhetoric while pretending he is just a "democratic socialist".
That, or he is just seriously self-deluded.