Author Topic: The Politics Thread v2  (Read 181284 times)

Offline Solo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1778
  • Sorcelator Supreme
    • View Profile
    • Solo's Compiled Works
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #280 on: October 30, 2015, 02:36:26 AM »
There's a standard for Marxists now? Did the Internationale finally get off its ass and publish official guidelines for how to be a Marxist?

This is exciting news! Tell me was Stalin or Trotsky right about how the revolution should be spread? Must the revolution be lead by a vanguard party, or should the government be abolished wholesale and replaced by unions? What about socialism with Chinese characteristics? Is that an acceptable deviation or is it verboten?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 02:39:23 AM by Solo »
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline bhu

  • Uncle Kittie
  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 16306
  • Fnord bitches
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #281 on: October 30, 2015, 03:00:23 AM »
Alinsky didn't care for ideology though.  His tactics are used by both the left and the right, which shows some degree of how successful they are, but if they truly adhere to the core of Alinsky's philosophy they should shun blind faith or zealotry.  Neither the left or right do that.

Sanders seems more Socialist than Communist.  I know the two terms are used interchangeably these days but they are not the same thing.

Offline SolEiji

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3045
  • I am 120% Eiji.
    • View Profile
    • D&D Wiki.org, not .com
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #282 on: October 30, 2015, 03:11:51 AM »
Alinsky didn't care for ideology though.  His tactics are used by both the left and the right, which shows some degree of how successful they are, but if they truly adhere to the core of Alinsky's philosophy they should shun blind faith or zealotry.  Neither the left or right do that.

Sanders seems more Socialist than Communist.  I know the two terms are used interchangeably these days but they are not the same thing.

Not even socialist.  I trust my contacts outside of the US when they say that Sanders would be conservative anywhere else.  The Overton window's just been pushed that far.  Until he starts talking about workers controlling the means of production, he's very much a capitalist.  So the Social Democrat label is actually the most accurate, his use of socialist aside.

Personally I suspect he uses the term because he wants to disarm its volatile nature in the eyes of the public (a valid goal if I say so myself).  If people associate socialism with "all those things that help me, like police and fire departments" you get a lot fewer people who will spill their spaghetti out of their pockets if you even so much as hint that not everything has a capitalist solution.

We've got a long ways to go before we see actual socialism.
Mudada.

Offline stanprollyright

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 248
  • The Looks
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #283 on: October 30, 2015, 10:17:28 AM »
Liberal stoners against legalization in Ohio are pissing me off.
Goats are like mushrooms
If you shoot a duck I'm scared of toasters

Offline dman11235

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2571
  • Disclaimer: not at full capacity yet
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #284 on: October 30, 2015, 10:42:20 AM »
There are liberal stoners who are against legalization?  What?
My Sig's Handy Haversack  Need help?  Want to see what I've done?  Want to see what others have done well?  Check it out.

Avatar d20

Offline stanprollyright

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 248
  • The Looks
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #285 on: October 30, 2015, 11:29:50 AM »
Here is a relatively balanced look at the controversy.  People are upset because it creates something of an oligopoly for the next 4 years and is written into the constitution.

This is more in depth
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 11:37:08 AM by stanprollyright »
Goats are like mushrooms
If you shoot a duck I'm scared of toasters

Offline FireInTheSky

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3870
  • "Insight is the sudden cessation of stupidity."
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #286 on: October 31, 2015, 03:08:57 PM »
Scott Walker signs bill ending political corruption probes. Of which he's twice been the target...

Offline Solo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1778
  • Sorcelator Supreme
    • View Profile
    • Solo's Compiled Works
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #287 on: October 31, 2015, 03:47:19 PM »
Scott Walker signs bill ending political corruption probes. Of which he's twice been the target...
It's just because Scott Walker knows that Scott Walker has nothing to hide, and that the investigation is therefore a waste of public money.
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline dman11235

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2571
  • Disclaimer: not at full capacity yet
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #288 on: November 01, 2015, 10:34:55 AM »
Paul Ryan on what he needs to do as Speaker:

....2: provide compromises without compromising principles
3: don't compromise on anything and change the direction this country is headed in.....
My Sig's Handy Haversack  Need help?  Want to see what I've done?  Want to see what others have done well?  Check it out.

Avatar d20

Offline Samwise

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 564
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #289 on: November 01, 2015, 07:24:28 PM »
There's a standard for Marxists now? Did the Internationale finally get off its ass and publish official guidelines for how to be a Marxist?

There is always a standard for Marxists. How else would they be able to justify purging people?
The Internationale has published official guidelines several times. How else would they manage to keep purging different people?

Quote
This is exciting news! Tell me was Stalin or Trotsky right about how the revolution should be spread? Must the revolution be lead by a vanguard party, or should the government be abolished wholesale and replaced by unions? What about socialism with Chinese characteristics? Is that an acceptable deviation or is it verboten?

Such questions show a distinct lack of revolutionary fervor.
Better hope the rules committee doesn't find out and refer you to internal security for extensive re-education.

Offline Samwise

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 564
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #290 on: November 01, 2015, 07:32:13 PM »
Alinsky didn't care for ideology though.  His tactics are used by both the left and the right, which shows some degree of how successful they are, but if they truly adhere to the core of Alinsky's philosophy they should shun blind faith or zealotry.  Neither the left or right do that.

You mean like Hillary.
Hence my categorization of her, and why I suggest Bill is much better at it than her.

Quote
Sanders seems more Socialist than Communist.  I know the two terms are used interchangeably these days but they are not the same thing.

Depends on which theorist you ask. "From a certain point of view", socialism is just an early stage of communism, preparing the way for "true" communism.

Not even socialist.  I trust my contacts outside of the US when they say that Sanders would be conservative anywhere else.  The Overton window's just been pushed that far.  Until he starts talking about workers controlling the means of production, he's very much a capitalist.  So the Social Democrat label is actually the most accurate, his use of socialist aside.

In which case he is more Corporatist, aka Fascist, than a "Social Democrat", whatever that is supposed to be.
Of course with some of his rhetoric, he could even be considered more on the National Socialist part of the spectrum, but then he really doesn't want people thinking about that.

Quote
Personally I suspect he uses the term because he wants to disarm its volatile nature in the eyes of the public (a valid goal if I say so myself).  If people associate socialism with "all those things that help me, like police and fire departments" you get a lot fewer people who will spill their spaghetti out of their pockets if you even so much as hint that not everything has a capitalist solution.

We've got a long ways to go before we see actual socialism.

In which case he is definitely quite the true communist, just one hiding his true intentions and taking things in stages. That would put him more in the Fabian Socialist category, which is still not a "Democratic Socialist".

Offline bhu

  • Uncle Kittie
  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 16306
  • Fnord bitches
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #291 on: November 01, 2015, 07:51:45 PM »

In which case he is more Corporatist, aka Fascist, than a "Social Democrat", whatever that is supposed to be.
Of course with some of his rhetoric, he could even be considered more on the National Socialist part of the spectrum, but then he really doesn't want people thinking about that.

The differences are something like this:

Communism advocates class warfare, and public ownership of all property.  People are paid according to their abilities and needs.  This has, of course, never been actually practiced as the countries advocating for Communism merely used it as an excuse to seize power in a totalitarian manner.  There has never been a truly Communist society, and likely there never will be.

Socialism is more along the lines of everyone gets an equal share and the government controls major industries which are necessary for the society to function.  The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

Social Democrats are similar to Socialism, but advocate for greater democracy and personal liberty than socialists do.

Bernie is not likely a National Socialist as the main themes of National Socialism are race warfare, a variant on Fascism, and Nationalism.  It's also fairly stridently anti-union, anti-Communist and abhors homosexuality in favor of enforced traditional gender roles.  Hitler billed it as a mix of the best of left and right wing philosophies and use the name National Socialism because Socialism was well respected at the time in Europe, and in it's early stages the Nazi party were viewed as uncultured thugs.  He used the name Socialism to achieve respect, but his actual philosophy has nothing to do with socialism so much as racism.  Bernie is too far left to be a Nazi. 

Offline bhu

  • Uncle Kittie
  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 16306
  • Fnord bitches
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #292 on: November 01, 2015, 07:55:54 PM »

You mean like Hillary.
Hence my categorization of her, and why I suggest Bill is much better at it than her.


Fair enough.  My point, which was obscured by the fact that I posted in the wee hours and therefore didn't state it well, was that one can be a centrist and still be an Alinskyite. 

Offline stanprollyright

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 248
  • The Looks
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #293 on: November 01, 2015, 10:20:03 PM »
Sanders seems more Socialist than Communist.  I know the two terms are used interchangeably these days but they are not the same thing.

Not even socialist.  I trust my contacts outside of the US when they say that Sanders would be conservative anywhere else.  The Overton window's just been pushed that far.  Until he starts talking about workers controlling the means of production, he's very much a capitalist.  So the Social Democrat label is actually the most accurate, his use of socialist aside.

Personally I suspect he uses the term because he wants to disarm its volatile nature in the eyes of the public (a valid goal if I say so myself).  If people associate socialism with "all those things that help me, like police and fire departments" you get a lot fewer people who will spill their spaghetti out of their pockets if you even so much as hint that not everything has a capitalist solution.

We've got a long ways to go before we see actual socialism.

^This.  IIRC he started calling himself "socialist" after his political opponents in Burlington labeled him thus.
Goats are like mushrooms
If you shoot a duck I'm scared of toasters

Offline Samwise

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 564
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #294 on: November 02, 2015, 11:34:44 AM »
The differences are something like this:

Communism advocates class warfare, and public ownership of all property.

Technically, communism advocates no classes and communal use of all property as nothing is actually owned.

Quote
People are paid according to their abilities and needs.

People are not paid according to either.
They are taken from according to their ability and given according to their need. The concept of that being "pay" never enters into the equation.

Quote
This has, of course, never been actually practiced as the countries advocating for Communism merely used it as an excuse to seize power in a totalitarian manner.  There has never been a truly Communist society, and likely there never will be.

There has never been a truly anything society by that standard.
Which of course leads to the whole problem of people claiming or being assigned labels.

Quote
Socialism is more along the lines of everyone gets an equal share and the government controls major industries which are necessary for the society to function.  The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

Theoretically of course.
And with great variation in actual application.
So we're right back to just what labels people claim or have applied to them.

Quote
Social Democrats are similar to Socialism, but advocate for greater democracy and personal liberty than socialists do.

You mean they say they do.
Whether they actually produce it, or indeed if their rhetoric matches those other claims, are significantly different things.

Quote
Bernie is not likely a National Socialist as the main themes of National Socialism are race warfare, a variant on Fascism, and Nationalism.

Bernie is very much a variant on Fascism and a rabid Nationalist.
All that is missing is the race warfare, but then that can easily be parsed away as only the "German" version of National Socialism, and not the more "generic" version of National Socialism.

Quote
It's also fairly stridently anti-union, anti-Communist and abhors homosexuality in favor of enforced traditional gender roles.

Like all Marxist derivatives it was quite pro-union at the start, until of course it didn't need the competition and rolled the unions into government bureaus.
And like all Marxist derivatives it hated all other Marxist derivatives.
As for abhorring homosexuality, that is both standard for Marxism as well as a political tool within the NSDAP, where many of the leaders were quite openly homosexual until it became time to purge them.
As for "traditional" gender roles, that also becomes suspect with the NSDAP disdain for marriage as opposed to simply breeding.

Quote
Hitler billed it as a mix of the best of left and right wing philosophies and use the name National Socialism because Socialism was well respected at the time in Europe, and in it's early stages the Nazi party were viewed as uncultured thugs. He used the name Socialism to achieve respect, but his actual philosophy has nothing to do with socialism so much as racism.  Bernie is too far left to be a Nazi.

So you mean he billed it as a "third" or "middle" way, just like Bernie. Okay.
And he used "socialism" the way Bernie uses "democratic" for PR reasons. Okay.
As for actual philosophy, of the 25 platform points of the NSDAP:

(click to show/hide)

15-1/2 (9-22, 25, half of 23) qualify as being absolutely socialist
2-1/2 (7, 8, half of 24) can be added back with minor editing and accounting for weasel words in as just nationalist
2 (5, 6) more if Bernie decides to promote a separate system of laws for immigrants and guest workers (or whatever he wants to call them)
3 (1-3) are irrelevant as just territorial demands
Leaving a grand total of . . .
1 + 1/2 + 1/2 (4, half of 23 and 24) as being purely racist

Bernie is quite comfortably both left enough and nationalist enough to be a by-the-platform NSDAP-er. He only has a problem with being too Jewish, which could still be overlooked with special circumstances.

Quote
Fair enough.  My point, which was obscured by the fact that I posted in the wee hours and therefore didn't state it well, was that one can be a centrist and still be an Alinskyite.

I understand the posting at wee hours issue. I've done it too many times myself.

But I'll still assert being an Alinskyite is different from merely using his tactics, and the distinction must be noted.

Offline Solo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1778
  • Sorcelator Supreme
    • View Profile
    • Solo's Compiled Works
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #295 on: November 02, 2015, 01:27:26 PM »
There's a standard for Marxists now? Did the Internationale finally get off its ass and publish official guidelines for how to be a Marxist?

There is always a standard for Marxists. How else would they be able to justify purging people?
The Internationale has published official guidelines several times. How else would they manage to keep purging different people?
Can you show me where these guidelines are?

Quote
Technically, communism advocates no classes and communal use of all property as nothing is actually owned.
Even more technically, communal ownership of the means of production. Communal ownership of things such as chairs is not a thing.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 01:30:56 PM by Solo »
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline bhu

  • Uncle Kittie
  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 16306
  • Fnord bitches
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #296 on: November 02, 2015, 04:25:06 PM »

Bernie is very much a variant on Fascism and a rabid Nationalist.
All that is missing is the race warfare, but then that can easily be parsed away as only the "German" version of National Socialism, and not the more "generic" version of National Socialism.

Being a rabid Nationalist in the states means wrapping yourself in the flag and in some cases religion.  My country, right or wrong.  If you consistently point out the failings of your country (which Bernie does), and are willing to admit that it's both made mistakes which it needs to make up for, then you aren't a rabid Nationalist.  Nationalist refuse to believe their country can do any wrong


Quote
Like all Marxist derivatives it was quite pro-union at the start, until of course it didn't need the competition and rolled the unions into government bureaus.
And like all Marxist derivatives it hated all other Marxist derivatives.

Marxism is a hard left philosophy that views existence as warfare between classes.  Fascism, and Nazism, are hard right philosophies that view the world through the lens of race or ethnic warfare. 

Quote
So you mean he billed it as a "third" or "middle" way, just like Bernie. Okay.

Bernie isn't billing himself as a third middle way.  He openly admits to being Left when it's openly a political disadvantage for him to do so.

Quote
As for actual philosophy, of the 25 platform points of the NSDAP:

As you've already discussed what politicians put forth isn't what you judge them by, so much as what they do.  Living in Ohio I have the misfortune of living in a state with one of the few Nazi presences left.   And their beliefs pretty much boils down to as follows:

All property ownership, voting rights, and legal protections under the law shall apply solely to adult, straight, christian white men.

Anyone who is not an adult, straight, christian white man can be killed or enslaved with no penalty under law.

Kill or harm anyone who you perceived as having wronged you, no matter how slight the offense.

My apologies if I sound snippy about this, but having been forced to work with the bastards I have come to loathe them as I have few other living things.  I find fleas more acceptable than nazis.

Quote
But I'll still assert being an Alinskyite is different from merely using his tactics, and the distinction must be noted.
  May I ask what your definition of Alinskyite is then?

Offline Samwise

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 564
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #297 on: November 02, 2015, 06:00:04 PM »
Can you show me where these guidelines are?

Check the party website, I'm sure they have some reading material.

Quote
Even more technically, communal ownership of the means of production. Communal ownership of things such as chairs is not a thing.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
Do you need that chair comrade?
If not, why are you hoarding it?

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #298 on: November 02, 2015, 06:02:13 PM »
Well, you have to keep excess chairs somewhere.

Offline Samwise

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 564
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #299 on: November 02, 2015, 06:26:01 PM »
Being a rabid Nationalist in the states means wrapping yourself in the flag and in some cases religion.  My country, right or wrong.  If you consistently point out the failings of your country (which Bernie does), and are willing to admit that it's both made mistakes which it needs to make up for, then you aren't a rabid Nationalist.  Nationalist refuse to believe their country can do any wrong.

That's way too conveniently parsed a definition.
A Nationalist can just as much refer to someone who wants to classify everyone by nationality, and make "Buy <national>!" a rallying cry.
Bernie wants to go full isolationist and self-sufficient economically, or at least claims he wants to. That absolutely qualifies him for the Nationalist subtype.

Quote
Marxism is a hard left philosophy that views existence as warfare between classes.  Fascism, and Nazism, are hard right philosophies that view the world through the lens of race or ethnic warfare.

Fascism and Nazism are hard left variants of Marxism, with just as much class warfare as "orthodox" Marxism. Their primary heresies are Nationalism and Corporatism, with the Racism added for Nazism.
The only reason they are labeled "hard right" is because Stalin and the Internationale declared them to be right wing heresies, not because their actual values have anything to do with Republicanism or even Democracy.

Quote
Bernie isn't billing himself as a third middle way.  He openly admits to being Left when it's openly a political disadvantage for him to do so.

He bills himself as Left-but-not-Left, following the typical pattern of the "third way" revisionists.

Quote
As you've already discussed what politicians put forth isn't what you judge them by, so much as what they do.  Living in Ohio I have the misfortune of living in a state with one of the few Nazi presences left.   And their beliefs pretty much boils down to as follows:

Different Nazis, different specific platforms.
However;

Quote
My apologies if I sound snippy about this, but having been forced to work with the bastards I have come to loathe them as I have few other living things.  I find fleas more acceptable than nazis.

I won't fight you over just how lousy Nazis are, but don't expect me to cede without a fight just which one of loathes them more.

As far as that goes with the specific points you noted compared to the platform, I think we can both agree that Nazis in general barely manage to avoid being totally dissociative between their stated ideology and their practical ideology. The fact that they can worship Hitler for what he did to the Jews while engaging in Holocaust denial demonstrates they are almost as fundamentally incompatible with reality as R'lyeh.

The thing is, that's going to leave us at an impasse over what defines Nazism versus what defines individual morons who like to say they are Nazis, and how that relates to others with similar platforms.

Quote
May I ask what your definition of Alinskyite is then?

Loosely speaking: a Fabian Socialist who lives in the real world.
(I know, I know, "What is a Fabian Socialist?"  :p
An orthodox Marxist who never gets beyond writing an endless series of pamphlets.  :D)
Functional Examples:
Valerie Jarrett is an "excellent" Alinskyite. She believes the ideology and uses the means.
Bill is a lousy Alinskyite. He believes the ideology and uses the means, but would rather party.
Hillary and Michelle are sucktastic Alinskyites. They think they believe the ideology and use the means, but they just want the power.
Obama is too narcissistic to be an Alinskyite or anything else. He is incapable of believing in anything other than himself.