Author Topic: The Politics Thread v2  (Read 181099 times)

Offline Samwise

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #360 on: November 05, 2015, 10:26:29 PM »
The part that people find disagreable us that the school chose not to renew based soley on the fact that she was outed to the public.

I have no problem with people finding it disagreeable.
I do have a problem with people finding it actionable.
That is a relevant difference.

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Not to me you weren't.

Then on what basis did you introduce it?

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But celebrating straight couples is not oppression towards gays, nor has anyone, to my knowledge, said it is.

To my knowledge, quite a few extremely vocal groups have said it is.
Not coincidentally, they are often the same groups promoting not just gay marriage, but quite a few other things people are less than thrilled about in the process, up to and including starting to turn on themselves:
http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/02/colleges-project-vulva-attacked-for-transphobia/
(Summary: drawing women's parts instead of men's parts in support of women's equality is transphobic.)

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Legally giving them more rights; better treatment in the eyes of the law, etc, is. Just like celebrating being white (either through Irish pride parades or a white power rally) is not oppressing minorities, but forcing them to the back of the bus on pain of lynching is.

Which is why celebrating being Italian through Columbus Day is not oppressing minorities.
Oh wait . . .
Well, assuming you consider Italians to be "white" in the first place. And if that isn't even more oppression. It gets hard to keep track when they change things so much.

Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #361 on: November 05, 2015, 10:29:46 PM »
Calling Columbus Day an Italian heritage day is a lot like calling my fist a dolphin.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #362 on: November 05, 2015, 10:37:30 PM »
Calling Columbus Day an Italian heritage day is a lot like calling my fist a dolphin.

Especially as it's an achievement funded by Castille and Aragon. Not, you know, anything to do with Italy. Especially given the political state of the region at the time...

Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #363 on: November 05, 2015, 10:46:01 PM »
If we're going to celebrate European explorers who reached the Americas first, why aren't we celebrating my heritage?  Vikings were the first by about 500 years, and they didn't go on a genocidal conquest of the area.  Most of the contact with native cultures there was peaceful, with a few wars.  But no, it's got to be Italian (again, that makes no sense) because Spain funded an expedition by a man who was the laughingstock and lucky to survive to reach the Caribbean (he didn't even set foot on the continent) because he went against science and said the Earth was a third the size that it was (everyone including the Spanish court and English court and French, Portugese, Genoan, Venetian, etc. etc. knew the Earth was round, and how big it was to within a couple miles).  He wasn't even Italian because Italy didn't exist for another couple hundred years.
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Offline Samwise

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #364 on: November 05, 2015, 10:47:04 PM »
In any event, refusing to serve/employ someone because their orientation doesn't jive with your beliefs isn't religious freedom, it's a violation of their religious freedom by attempting to force them to conform to your belief system.

It depends on the circumstances.
Refusing to sell someone a candy bar, it would be.
Refusing to hire someone who would violate your religious requirements in a job with a religion function, absolutely not.

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This would be like a Jewish or Muslim person knocking the beer and hotdogs out of other people's hands at a baseball game because their religion says they aren't allowed to eat them.

So like . . . Muslims refusing to transport people with dogs or alcohol.
Or perhaps of all the complaints of people eating during Ramadan.
Or Atheists who complain of Christians displaying crosses in their workspaces.
Or Atheists complaining that someone dared to say "Merry Christmas" to them.

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If you run a restaurant, sure, you could decide not to serve foods which are prohibited by your belief system--but refusing to serve or employ members of another faith or people who do eat those foods (at home, in the privacy of their own dining room) is not about being free to practice your religion, it's about persecuting others for not practicing it.

So then in the case of a Christian school there is in fact no persecution for not wanting to employ someone who does not meet the standards of your faith as a teacher.
Or what happens if you run a restaurant that serves alcohol but a Muslim demands to be a waiter then refuses to carry beer to tables? Indeed there is a recent case of Muslim drivers winning a suit for being fired after refusing to drive a delivery truck with alcohol.
Or someone who is not Jewish and loves their bread brings some into a kosher deli during Passover, making the entire place unclean.

Who winds up persecuting who is not as easy as you want to make it out to be, particularly when the same group seems to have to be the ones whose faith gets trampled on over and over again.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #365 on: November 05, 2015, 10:48:55 PM »
If we're going to celebrate European explorers who reached the Americas first, why aren't we celebrating my heritage?  Vikings were the first by about 500 years, and they didn't go on a genocidal conquest of the area.  Most of the contact with native cultures there was peaceful, with a few wars.  But no, it's got to be Italian (again, that makes no sense) because Spain funded an expedition by a man who was the laughingstock and lucky to survive to reach the Caribbean (he didn't even set foot on the continent) because he went against science and said the Earth was a third the size that it was (everyone including the Spanish court and English court and French, Portugese, Genoan, Venetian, etc. etc. knew the Earth was round, and how big it was to within a couple miles).  He wasn't even Italian because Italy didn't exist for another couple hundred years.

Makes me wonder why Isabella and Ferdinand decided it would be a good idea. See if there's anything between here and... you know, Asia? It's not like they would be as dumb as Columbus.

Offline Samwise

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #366 on: November 05, 2015, 11:00:45 PM »
Makes me wonder why Isabella and Ferdinand decided it would be a good idea. See if there's anything between here and... you know, Asia? It's not like they would be as dumb as Columbus.

Columbus had a dissenting source for the size of the earth. It was wrong, but hardly something he made up just because.
And its not like anyone had actually sailed around to be absolutely sure. Or would for some time.
People have gone searching for crazier things on flimsier theories and been right. Columbus was both wrong and lucky, but that's how things go sometimes.

Not that I'm enamored of Columbus, and definitely not of Ferdinand and Isabella.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #367 on: November 05, 2015, 11:10:55 PM »
Finding the Americas early may have prevented their being partitioned up centuries later in the same random way Africa was once the colonial rush got going. That's something. South America's at least less bizarre than that.

Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #368 on: November 05, 2015, 11:14:02 PM »
Dude.  We've known how big the Earth was since 2000 BC.  That was like giving money to the local hobo to fund his journey to meet the mole people on Mars.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #369 on: November 05, 2015, 11:18:06 PM »
Dude.  We've known how big the Earth was since 2000 BC.  That was like giving money to the local hobo to fund his journey to meet the mole people on Mars.

I suppose the cost of funding one expedition was probably the same level of expenditure for them... :lmao

Offline bhu

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #370 on: November 06, 2015, 03:45:32 PM »
Looks like Carson's in trubba.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #371 on: November 06, 2015, 04:09:52 PM »
for a moment I though this was:  The Psionics Thread

... explaining all the arguing.  Dyslexia mand-ti.



Heh, that David Barton book dude, has softened all that ground.
I don't think getting sum'thin rong about The Fathers, bothers their crowd.
(fawning + reverent voice :  The Fathers , ohh , they didn't own slaves ) etc
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Offline Samwise

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #372 on: November 06, 2015, 10:36:42 PM »
Finding the Americas early may have prevented their being partitioned up centuries later in the same random way Africa was once the colonial rush got going. That's something. South America's at least less bizarre than that.

Africa had been "discovered" centuries before. It simply hadn't been explored particularly far south due to the limits of technology with the great big desert in the Atlantic and the lack of a persistent canal to the Indian Ocean.

Once those were dealt with, disease and an extremely antagonistic competitor limited expansion. Conversely, disease and climate driven collapses of potential antagonists enabled block expansion in the Americas.

Finally, there was the rather massive shift in Great Power status and the ability to project a successful colonial mission, compounded by religious issues, that favored different nations in the Americas versus in Africa, which impacted the outcomes.

As it goes, once the initial waves were over in both, the remainder wound up quite patchwork due to similar factors of specific need, opportunism, and victory in war. The Americas simply appear less patchwork because of the rather unusual consolidations in North America. Get past the U.S. and Canada, or examine the histories of the component parts of those more closely, and you will see a patchwork just as in Africa.

Offline SolEiji

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #373 on: November 06, 2015, 10:41:29 PM »
Just finished watching the Dem Forum debate that was happening live a bit ago.  I'll copy and paste my reddit post here, as I think it is fitting.

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I thought that went very well.

O'Malley was strong, hit several good points, and save for what I consider an ill guided play on party lines all and all was pretty good.  My opinion of him has improved.

Sanders was also very strong tonight, I think he showed well, was full of passion, and hit all the notes I wanted him too, especially about Talking the Talk but not Walking the Walk.  Go Bernie!

As I am biased, I cannot talk much about Clinton and will leave that to others.  That said, I wished she would lay up on telling appeal to emotion stories, I don't think that was a good move from her.  As for the rest, others can debate if she was strong or weak, that's just what stood out to me.
Mudada.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #374 on: November 06, 2015, 10:50:09 PM »
No really, Africa (complete with coastal expansion from Iberia) and its huge importance in European history was known about before the colonisation boom? Egypt, Carthage, the Vandal Kingdom, most of the Caliphate, communication with Ethiopia and other states towards the horn (along with Mali etc. in the west) and the whole slave trade... Of course I was talking about the mad scramble that resulted in everything being divvied up in nice straight lines and used as goods to be won in international dick-waving contests. The Americas were mostly spared that idiocy. Not that the ex-colonial states were any better between themselves, but the results are less... WTF.

The Americas proper pretty soon consolidated to British influence in the north (then independence came in), and Spanish/Portuguese in the South. In largely contiguous blocks. Africa became a total mess between every European power wandering in. British Empire, France, Germany once it formed, Belgium, the Netherlands... all splitting things in boxes. That didn't have the ethnic consequences that the Americas did.

Offline Samwise

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #375 on: November 06, 2015, 11:48:13 PM »
Of course I was talking about the mad scramble that resulted in everything being divvied up in nice straight lines and used as goods to be won in international dick-waving contests. The Americas were mostly spared that idiocy.

No they weren't. Perhaps you never heard of New Sweden, or New Netherlands, or how many flags have flown over the Gulf Coast States, or of the arguments between the 13 British Colonies/States over just what their royal charters covered and who really owned what. As I said, it was only a shift in Great Power status combined with what is pretty much a quirk of history that prevented North America from ending up just as patchwork as Africa. That effect would have been redoubled without the massive deaths and social collapses from disease that preceded the British colonization by a mere 100 years due to the arrival of the Spanish.
Meanwhile where there wasn't the U.S. or Canada or Spain or Portugal, namely the Caribbean, there was and is a massive patchwork of island statelets, with representation from France, the Netherlands and Denmark on top of the British, Americans, and Spanish, with a succession of waves of colonization and transfer of ownership. There are even two islands that are partitioned!
Compared to that, Africa underwent virtually no transfers of colonial territory due to European intra-murals.

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The Americas proper pretty soon consolidated to British influence in the north (then independence came in), and Spanish/Portuguese in the South. In largely contiguous blocks.


Only as gross outlines on a map.
On the ground, functionally, they were just as much as patchwork. I went over the U.S. above, for the counterpart to that look at how the Spanish bloc in Central and South America fractured on independence. While they were administered as a few large masses they were never so politically, and that could easily have been the fate of the U.S. and Canada.
The only truly exception to that is Portuguese Brazil, which can claim a number of special cases.

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Africa became a total mess between every European power wandering in. British Empire, France, Germany once it formed, Belgium, the Netherlands... all splitting things in boxes.

Not really. You are looking at a current map. Look at a map of the full colonial era, say this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa#/media/File:Colonial_Africa_1913_map.svg
Let's see . . .
An almost solid French bloc from the west to the center plus Madagascar.
A British block in the east that barely misses being solid with a few random slices of the French sector.
Two notable Portuguese possessions (with a few smaller ones barely visible).
A few scattered Spanish bits (most of which are barely visible as well).
And finally the Germans filling in most of the empty spaces with the Belgians getting the last available chunk that nobody else thought would ever be profitable.
Oh, and then what the Italians grabbed at the last minute, including a large chunk given to them by the British.
By the by, where exactly are all the boxes and straight lines in that? I see zero boxes and maybe a dozen straight lines.

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That didn't have the ethnic consequences that the Americas did.

 :o
 :twitch
I'd offer to list some of the ethnic wars that have devastated Africa since the 1950s and decolonization, and list some of the ethnic groups that are split between countries due to random borders, but the lists are so long I'm afraid any sampling wouldn't do them justice.
The ethnic consequences in Africa have been several orders of magnitude more significant than the ethnic consequences in the Americas. I'm stunned anyone would even suggest otherwise.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #376 on: November 10, 2015, 06:00:57 PM »

Looks like Carson's in trubba.

Heh, that David Barton book dude, has softened all that ground.
I don't think getting sum'thin rong about The Fathers, bothers their crowd.
(fawning + reverent voice :  The Fathers , ohh , they didn't own slaves ) etc

Take 2 ... oh there's more, eh?
This look's like the genre of :  "Conversion Story with Considerable License"
that is so popular in corners of right wingy christianity.
Lying For Jesus for the win.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #378 on: November 11, 2015, 10:18:55 AM »
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The Americas proper pretty soon consolidated to British influence in the north (then independence came in), and Spanish/Portuguese in the South. In largely contiguous blocks.


Only as gross outlines on a map.
On the ground, functionally, they were just as much as patchwork. I went over the U.S. above, for the counterpart to that look at how the Spanish bloc in Central and South America fractured on independence. While they were administered as a few large masses they were never so politically, and that could easily have been the fate of the U.S. and Canada.
The only truly exception to that is Portuguese Brazil, which can claim a number of special cases.
There was a single special case.


(a portuguese prince was the one actually getting independence. After the portuguese family moved in there. Yes, Code Geass is based on portuguese history)

Look at South America. See how Brasil fills all the middle? The other colonies simply couldn't hold together. It was geograhically impossible for them to remain under a single government.

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Africa became a total mess between every European power wandering in. British Empire, France, Germany once it formed, Belgium, the Netherlands... all splitting things in boxes.

Not really. You are looking at a current map. Look at a map of the full colonial era, say this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa#/media/File:Colonial_Africa_1913_map.svg
Let's see . . .
An almost solid French bloc from the west to the center plus Madagascar.
A British block in the east that barely misses being solid with a few random slices of the French sector.
Two notable Portuguese possessions (with a few smaller ones barely visible).
A few scattered Spanish bits (most of which are barely visible as well).
And finally the Germans filling in most of the empty spaces with the Belgians getting the last available chunk that nobody else thought would ever be profitable.
Oh, and then what the Italians grabbed at the last minute, including a large chunk given to them by the British.
By the by, where exactly are all the boxes and straight lines in that? I see zero boxes and maybe a dozen straight lines.

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That didn't have the ethnic consequences that the Americas did.

 :o
 :twitch
I'd offer to list some of the ethnic wars that have devastated Africa since the 1950s and decolonization, and list some of the ethnic groups that are split between countries due to random borders, but the lists are so long I'm afraid any sampling wouldn't do them justice.
The ethnic consequences in Africa have been several orders of magnitude more significant than the ethnic consequences in the Americas. I'm stunned anyone would even suggest otherwise.

I believe it's a matter that the americas native population was pretty much fully exterminated and nowadays there's just a few tiny, dwindling pockets left.

While the Africa natives have proved pretty damn tough and still are the majority in their land despite all the centuries of exploration and war.

A descendent from africans rules the USA right now. You'll however never see an actual american native descended from the people that were there before the colonists arrived and went all DISEASE KILL BURN FREEDOM! making it to president of the USA. Or any important political place for the matter.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 10:38:12 AM by oslecamo »

Offline Libertad

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #379 on: November 11, 2015, 11:39:07 AM »
The US actually had a Native American Vice President, Charles Curtis, under President Herbert Hoover.  But your point still stands in that overall indigenous Americans are more or less completely marginalized in US society.