Author Topic: The Politics Thread v2  (Read 181229 times)

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #560 on: December 03, 2015, 04:10:36 PM »
Taymiyyah doesn't mention the Crusades
but the Mongol invasion really got his dander.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Samwise

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #561 on: December 03, 2015, 04:23:15 PM »
That was the overall statement.

That was all that was published.
That was not all the murderer said, or even all that the unnamed source said.

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Are you suggesting people who are mentally ill cannot have intentions?  :twitch

This may come as a shock to you, but according to the law, the mentally ill indeed cannot form intentions to break the law.
Hence the whole concept of "not guilty by reason of insanity", and the related concept of "not competent to stand trial", plus "diminished capacity", and a few others.

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It was more of an attack on Glenn Beck  :p

Yes, I know. I meant it that way. I'm quite aware of your ability to insult me directly.  :D

Offline Samwise

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #562 on: December 03, 2015, 04:27:30 PM »
"Oh wah, they had a war at some point they must be super hyper violent".  Compare to the 1000-1400 Christians who were the primary agitators of that time period?  I said relatively peaceful.  That means more peaceful than the norm.  By that logic the only group who aren't hyper violent extremists are the Jains.

Compared to the 1000-1400 Christians who were . . . fighting against the Islamists who had invaded their lands and were oppressing conquered Christians?

Yes, I know you said "relatively peaceful".
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You keep on using that phrase. I do not think it means when you think it means.

And no, the reasoning goes considerably deeper, but clearly you are averse to engaging them as they present such a clear and present danger to your ideology.

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It matters because I was responding to someone saying "Muslims are always violent awful horrible people who are constantly itching to kill everyone".  Paraphrasing, of course.

Paraphrasing because you need the strawman as you cannot rebut anything I actually say.

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EDIT: And the argument is not "aggressive", it's "violent extremist".  And I should note, the term "extremist" does kind of, you know, by definition mean they are not normal...And I think you and I both agree that Islam is not a particularly violent religion, you're just arguing semantics with me right now.

Actually the argument is whether or not what you want to call "violent extremist" is actually "extremist", and not something typical of Islam, as expressed in their scripture, commentary, and law.
In point of fact, it is, and your entire attempt to prove otherwise by indicting Christianity has revealed you know as little about the period of history from 1000-1400 as you do about any elements of history involving Islam.

For comparison:
http://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/
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This gives a rough estimate of 270 million killed by jihad.
versus:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism#Estimated_number_of_victims
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He claims that a death toll totals 94 million.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 04:44:23 PM by Samwise »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #563 on: December 03, 2015, 05:18:20 PM »
You're ratcheting the pointless ad hominem up again.

Offline Libertad

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #564 on: December 03, 2015, 05:29:21 PM »

This may come as a shock to you, but according to the law, the mentally ill indeed cannot form intentions to break the law.
Hence the whole concept of "not guilty by reason of insanity", and the related concept of "not competent to stand trial", plus "diminished capacity", and a few others.

Actually, the legal definition of insanity differs from the medicial definition.  In legalese, it comes down to the ability to discern right from wrong.

So medically speaking, Ted Bundy was recognized as mentally ill, but in the legal area he was deemed "sane" and stood fit for trial.  Sociopaths can discern right from wrong, they just don't care.

Also, I'm autistic (a more mild form than most people are familiar with), which is recognized as a mental disorder.  But in a hypothetical situation, if I went out and killed a guy who stole money from me, you can bet your ass I'll be charged with murder and that will be linked as a motive.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 05:32:06 PM by Libertad »

Offline Samwise

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #565 on: December 03, 2015, 05:31:58 PM »
It has a point.
It may not have a particular effect on the people who invite it with their lack of civility, but it certainly has a point.

Offline Libertad

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #566 on: December 03, 2015, 05:33:44 PM »
I'm male.  And it's not nice to call others "it."

Offline Samwise

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #567 on: December 03, 2015, 05:39:48 PM »
Actually, the legal definition of insanity differs from the medicial definition.  In legalese, it comes down to the ability to discern right from wrong.

So medically speaking, Ted Bundy was recognized as mentally ill, but in the legal area he was deemed "sane" and stood fit for trial.  Sociopaths can discern right from wrong, they just don't care.

Also, I'm autistic (a more mild form than most people are familiar with), which is recognized as a mental disorder.  But if I went out and killed a guy who badmouthed me at a sports game several months ago due to a grudge, you can bet your ass I'll be charged with first degree murder.

Yes, I know.
I was trying for a short explanation.
Most important, you are correct that the specific type of mental illness, along with the severity, are critical to the legal status.

The reports of the murderer in Colorado appear more suggestive of the kind of mental illness that is legally recognized as being incapable of forming intent, as opposed to being a morally depraved extremist conflated with mental illness, or with being an uncaring sociopath.

Offline Samwise

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #568 on: December 03, 2015, 05:41:31 PM »
I'm male.  And it's not nice to call others "it."

ARGH!

Sorry, that was supposed to be a reply to Raineh Daze's comment, not to you. (I've replied separately to your post - see above.)

Offline bhu

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #569 on: December 04, 2015, 01:55:27 AM »

That was all that was published.
That was not all the murderer said, or even all that the unnamed source said.
  I see you've returned after your weekly rest  :D

That was indeed about all that was known at time of publication.

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This may come as a shock to you, but according to the law, the mentally ill indeed cannot form intentions to break the law.
Hence the whole concept of "not guilty by reason of insanity", and the related concept of "not competent to stand trial", plus "diminished capacity", and a few others.
Ah but they can.  The insanity defense is very rarely used, and generally spectacularly unsuccessful.  If it's used that doesn't mean he didn't have intent, it means he hopes to escape the death penalty by demonstrating that his past diagnosis of mental illness renders him unfit to make decisions for himself, which is a very damn high bar to clear.  It's more of a hail mary pass than an actual defense.  A lawyer using the insanity plea is basically saying "Fuck it, we've got nothing else, we might as well try it and see what happens."  The prosecutors evidentiary bar is set depending on the charge.  For murder 1 you have to prove that A) He killed him, B) he intended to kill him, and C) you actually plotted and conspired to kill him.  Murder two just drops C.  Manslaughter drops B and C. 

And we both know I wasn't speaking of the courts definition of intent anyway  :D



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Yes, I know. I meant it that way. I'm quite aware of your ability to insult me directly.  :D
  Perhaps if you were polite to others I'd find it less compelling to do so.

Offline bhu

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #570 on: December 04, 2015, 01:56:24 AM »
I'm male.  And it's not nice to call others "it."

ARGH!

Sorry, that was supposed to be a reply to Raineh Daze's comment, not to you. (I've replied separately to your post - see above.)


Well.  Perhaps there's some human in you after all.

Offline Samwise

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #571 on: December 04, 2015, 11:54:42 PM »
That was indeed about all that was known at time of publication.

So just make up the rest of the stuff to fit a political agenda.
How . . . quaint.

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Ah but they can.

Well, no, they can't.

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The insanity defense is very rarely used, and generally spectacularly unsuccessful.

Irrelevant. This isn't about everyone else.

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And we both know I wasn't speaking of the courts definition of intent anyway  :D

Well no, we don't.

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Perhaps if you were polite to others I'd find it less compelling to do so.

I'm quite polite to others - until they are rude to me.

Perhaps if you weren't so full of hubris from a savior complex you'd find it less compelling to do so.

Offline bhu

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #572 on: December 05, 2015, 01:28:32 AM »

So just make up the rest of the stuff to fit a political agenda.
How . . . quaint.
  I didn't make up anything, I just posted news pages with quotes from them.  As mentioned before I have no political agenda.  Tweaking you isn't of itself political, after all there is the very real possibility I'm posting stuff from the news because I know you'll object and reply.

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Well, no, they can't.

Yes, they can  :p

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Irrelevant. This isn't about everyone else.
  Not if thats the defense his attorney has stated he will be using.

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Well no, we don't.
  Fine, I'll grant you that one.

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I'm quite polite to others - until they are rude to me.
  Okay then perhaps if you were less thin skinned and didn't view everything to your left as a communist plot.  I don't think you're a complete monster, I'd just like you to pull the stick from your ass and calm down.

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Perhaps if you weren't so full of hubris from a savior complex you'd find it less compelling to do so.
O'm not sure how you make that connection.  Trolls are irritants, not saviors, and you believe me to be one.  Also, hubris is a form of pride.  A true troll cannot afford either shame or pride in his shenanigans as they would be exploitable.

Now faking hubris is entirely different...

Offline SolEiji

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #573 on: December 05, 2015, 02:00:49 AM »
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I'm quite polite to others - until they are rude to me.
  Okay then perhaps if you were less thin skinned and didn't view everything to your left as a communist plot.  I don't think you're a complete monster, I'd just like you to pull the stick from your ass and calm down.

Komrade Bhu, do you think zhis one is onto us?  Zhe foolish American pig dog will never see our evil communist plot coming.  Zoon zhe Americans will fall before our free healthcare, and are vorking roads and highways!  Zhey will even have our evil socialized police and fire departments, and zhere is nothing Capitalist Pig Dog will be able to do to stop us!  DOHOHOHOHOHO!!!!!

Now, off to corrupt zhe Americans with ideals like zhe sharing, zhe promotion of education, and zhe promotion of zhe middle class.
Mudada.

Offline bhu

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #574 on: December 05, 2015, 02:10:15 AM »
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I'm quite polite to others - until they are rude to me.
  Okay then perhaps if you were less thin skinned and didn't view everything to your left as a communist plot.  I don't think you're a complete monster, I'd just like you to pull the stick from your ass and calm down.

Komrade Bhu, do you think zhis one is onto us?  Zhe foolish American pig dog will never see our evil communist plot coming.  Zoon zhe Americans will fall before our free healthcare, and are vorking roads and highways!  Zhey will even have our evil socialized police and fire departments, and zhere is nothing Capitalist Pig Dog will be able to do to stop us!  DOHOHOHOHOHO!!!!!

Now, off to corrupt zhe Americans with ideals like zhe sharing, zhe promotion of education, and zhe promotion of zhe middle class.

Why do we not have a spit take emoji?

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #575 on: December 05, 2015, 02:25:43 AM »
Why mass shootings don't convince gun owners to support gun control. This article is a great read. I'd also be interested to read the same article written from the opposite perspective (i.e."Why mass shootings convince non-gun owners to support gun control") with an equally reasoned explanation by a "conservative" of the "liberal" mindset (liberal and conservative as defined in the article).

Offline Samwise

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #576 on: December 05, 2015, 05:21:03 PM »
I didn't make up anything, I just posted news pages with quotes from them.  As mentioned before I have no political agenda.  Tweaking you isn't of itself political, after all there is the very real possibility I'm posting stuff from the news because I know you'll object and reply.

No, you just use the lies others tell while pretending you have no intent.
That's like, so convincing.

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Yes, they can  :p

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Not if thats the defense his attorney has stated he will be using.

His defense hasn't even begun as the investigation hasn't even finished.
And it may not be the defense his attorney has to use if the government examination finds him incompetent to assist or unable to be held responsible.

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Fine, I'll grant you that one.

Excellent.
Now you just have to accept you cannot read my mind.

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Okay then perhaps if you were less thin skinned and didn't view everything to your left as a communist plot.  I don't think you're a complete monster, I'd just like you to pull the stick from your ass and calm down.

My skin is of a suitable thickness.
And I don't view everything to my left as a communist plot, only the actual communist plots.
For certain others, it may serve a purpose to call them communist plots anyway, just to highlight the absurdity of those who insist anything to the right of them is a theocratic and "fascist" plot. Perhaps if the people did that pulled the sticks and bugs out of their asses and calmed down I would not be so enraged by them.

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O'm not sure how you make that connection.  Trolls are irritants, not saviors, and you believe me to be one.  Also, hubris is a form of pride.  A true troll cannot afford either shame or pride in his shenanigans as they would be exploitable.

Now faking hubris is entirely different...

You are the one who declared yourself the defender of the oppressed.
You are the one who declared excessive pride in his trolling.
I guess that means you acknowledge that you are not a true troll now.

Offline Samwise

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #577 on: December 05, 2015, 06:15:58 PM »
I'd also be interested to read the same article written from the opposite perspective (i.e."Why mass shootings convince non-gun owners to support gun control") with an equally reasoned explanation by a "conservative" of the "liberal" mindset (liberal and conservative as defined in the article).

Well, a simple explanation is just turning the article around:

Opposing firearm ownership is an issue of tribal solidarity, a show of support for Obama, the left, and the changes they represent.

You can tell people who oppose firearm ownership about the higher crime and murder rates in cities like Chicago and Philadelphia, which have the strongest restrictions, the most impositions on other freedoms, and the hostility to people in other jurisdictions, until you are blue in the face but they simply won't listen.
You can cite the higher popular support, and increased sales to new owners, every time the crime rate surges and there is more talk of "regulation". You can point out that, in point of fact, people who support "regulations" invariably also insist on confiscation - just like happened in Australia.

You can also point out just how many mass shootings occur in "gun free zones" compared to "ordinary" places, as well as the lower death rate in such instances when an armed bystander intervenes rather than waiting for the police.
And you can point out that firearm restrictions have always been used as a tool of oppression of minority groups and never as a means of empowering them.

Ultimately of course, the reason mass shootings encourage people who support firearm prohibition in their beliefs and advocacy is because such people are already predisposed to reject personal responsibility, believe that the "authorities" can protect them and provide all of their needs, and that since they know they are being reasonable, by definition anyone who disagrees must be unreasonable without any further argument being needed. And of course, such people are a threat to them that the government must protect them from, by of course disarming them.

None of this matters, because it has "become" an issue of tribal identity, opposing Bush (who isn't particularly liked by conservatives anyway), and the right, and the stability and rule of law they represent.

Which of course leads to the realizing that the article doesn't actually have a reasoned argument. It is just "they're opposed to us politically so they won't listen no matter what!" Sprinkled into that are pretenses of personality "research", that even the author has to admit is essentially useless, likely because he recognizes there is just as much out there to indict members of his tribe for their knee-jerk acceptance of firearm prohibition.

Offline bhu

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #578 on: December 05, 2015, 06:31:01 PM »

No, you just use the lies others tell while pretending you have no intent.
That's like, so convincing.
  I didn't say I had no intent, I said I had no political agenda,  I can have intentions that are entirely apolitical.

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His defense hasn't even begun as the investigation hasn't even finished.
And it may not be the defense his attorney has to use if the government examination finds him incompetent to assist or unable to be held responsible.
It's entirely possible his attorney may change his mind based on the investigations results, but I think you underestimate most people's need for revenge/closure.  It's entirely possible they'll say he's competent to stand trial, even if they think otherwise, because they just want to see him fry (or think that the public does).

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Excellent.
Now you just have to accept you cannot read my mind.
  Not trying to.  Good trolls are reactive not proactive.


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My skin is of a suitable thickness.
And I don't view everything to my left as a communist plot, only the actual communist plots.

You certainly do your unmitigated best to provide an entirely different impression.

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For certain others, it may serve a purpose to call them communist plots anyway, just to highlight the absurdity of those who insist anything to the right of them is a theocratic and "fascist" plot. Perhaps if the people did that pulled the sticks and bugs out of their asses and calmed down I would not be so enraged by them.

Every ideology has it's assholes.  The right does have fascists and theocrats, and because they are not repudiated by those who are not it's assumed that the right supports them.  Much in the same way the right assumes the left supports certain causes because they don't repudiate those who call for them.  One should try not to get too caught up in tribalism.


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You are the one who declared yourself the defender of the oppressed.
You are the one who declared excessive pride in his trolling.

I don't recall doing that, but if I have, have you ever considered it's merely a tactic to get you to reply?

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I guess that means you acknowledge that you are not a true troll now.
It depends on whether or not I consider it a valid option for that moment in time, i.e. will doing so make you reply.

Offline bhu

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #579 on: December 05, 2015, 06:33:16 PM »

None of this matters, because it has "become" an issue of tribal identity, opposing Bush (who isn't particularly liked by conservatives anyway), and the right, and the stability and rule of law they represent.

I would argue that no political party stands for stability or rule of law, they stand for their party.  They only want laws enforced against opposing parties and their voters.