The Politics Thread v2

[Samwise]

I would argue that no political party stands for stability or rule of law, they stand for their party.  They only want laws enforced against opposing parties and their voters.

http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa10.htm

[bhu]

I would argue that no political party stands for stability or rule of law, they stand for their party.  They only want laws enforced against opposing parties and their voters.

http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa10.htm

I can agree with some of what he says in theory, but in practice I fear there are too many self-serving and corrupt officials now to make it work.  Tribalism took hold over our politics decades ago, and while it's rhetoric is still used o garner votes it has begun to give way to narcissism.  Our elected officials march to the tune of the oligarchs now allowed to finance their campaigns, oblivious to the needs of their voters, their nation, and at times their own party in their desire for self gratification.

You may have guessed by now that I am a tad cynical.

[Samwise]

You may have guessed by now that I am a tad cynical.

 

I'm . . . shocked.

I can agree with some of what he says in theory, but in practice I fear there are too many self-serving and corrupt officials now to make it work.

That is pretty much the "debate" among my "faction" of "conservatives":
In "theory", eliminating faction is worse than permitting faction.
In "practice", things have gotten catastrophically craptastic.

Which means do we go with Hamilton and the first paragraph of Federalist #1, or must we default to Jefferson's letter to William Stephen Smith? (Not to mention Franklin's observation on the matter.)

The line between idealist, realist, and cynic is often which side of the bed you get out of on any particular day.

[dman11235]

So...there's no way Trump is a serious candidate.  I've finally figured it out, it is in fact a really really well done satirical campaign.  My brain refuses to believe he's a serious candidate with honest subscriptions to the beliefs he espouses.  Why do I think this?  He's calling to be vigilant of the hate and violence in our country by preventing any and all Muslims from entering the country.  Right before he heads off to a Pearl Harbor attack anniversary.  You know, the thing that sparked one of the more recent horrible things the US did, with regards to Japanese concentration camps.

[bhu]

Or he's tapping into the need of some voters for a political strongman who will eliminate their enemies.  The problem for them is they never realize that to remain in power a strongman needs an enemy, and once he runs out of enemies he purges his own for 'traitors'.  It's the same with traditional fascism.  Fascist voters naively believe because they helped elect a despot, he'll never put their back against the firing squad wall.

[dman11235]

The optics, the setup, the circumstances.  There's no way this isn't satire.  I....my brain can't handle this not being satire, and him being in the lead in the polls.  My brain can't handle this rhetoric being in the lead in the polls.

EDIT: Another major reason my brain isn't letting me take him seriously, it's trying to see through to the satirical statements that you would make if you were on the other side condemning the hatred he's spewing.  Stuff like "Without looking at the various polling data, it is obvious to anybody the hatred is beyond comprehension.  Where this hatred comes from and why we will have to determine. Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of horrendous attacks by people..." That could absolutely be talking about the people supporting him.  "...that believe only in Jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect for human life." and the rest drives it home.  He's talking about how the hatred being fostered by these people (mostly Republicans who favor the anti-Muslim laws and stuff) is benefiting the terrorist groups targeting areas that share this hatred, using it as a recruiting tool.

[MrWolfe]

The optics, the setup, the circumstances.  There's no way this isn't satire.  I....my brain can't handle this not being satire, and him being in the lead in the polls.  My brain can't handle this rhetoric being in the lead in the polls.

And this is why I avoid the news. Real life has been a farcically exaggerated dystopia for more years than I care to count. You can literally point to modern headlines and compare them to old comedy skits and satire pieces intended to be so over the top as to be outright ridiculous.

And no, Trump's just a bigoted moron. Occam's razor and all that: Simplest explanation that fits the facts is probably the correct one. Never underestimate the power of prejudice to completely fuck over things like logic and reasoning.

[Samwise]

Or he's tapping into the need of some voters for a political strongman who will eliminate their enemies.  The problem for them is they never realize that to remain in power a strongman needs an enemy, and once he runs out of enemies he purges his own for 'traitors'.  It's the same with traditional fascism.  Fascist voters naively believe because they helped elect a despot, he'll never put their back against the firing squad wall.

It's not just fascism, but pretty much all mass movements.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/true-believer-eric-hoffer/1100616914?ean=9780060505912

(This one requires a purchase and lots of reading. And tons of outrage when you recognize elements of yourself in what he is saying.)

[Raineh Daze]

Will you two stop fucking sniping at each other already?

[bhu]

Will you two stop fucking sniping at each other already?

I don't think it was sniping that time.

Read some more news Dman.  The current spin is that a Monmouth poll released today showed Cruz pulling way ahead of everyone in Iowa.  It was set to be a big news day for him, but hours after the polls release Donald calls for a ban on muslims guaranteed to suck up the attention of the press.  Could be coincidence...

[dman11235]

I refuse to believe it.

I'll leave this here.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/why-comparing-donald-trump-to-hitler-makes-perfect-sense/

Note the publication date of this.  This is from a while ago.

[Samwise]

I don't think it was sniping that time.

Me either.

Read some more news Dman.  The current spin is that a Monmouth poll released today showed Cruz pulling way ahead of everyone in Iowa.  It was set to be a big news day for him, but hours after the polls release Donald calls for a ban on muslims guaranteed to suck up the attention of the press.  Could be coincidence...

I suspect it is.
There's been a trend away from Trump and toward the social "conservatives" for some time. With Carson finally collapsing (rather like Cain last cycle) that means a major surge for Cruz. Also, the establishment vote seems to finally be giving up on Bush, which is the source of the surge for Rubio.
As for myself, I expected Trump to go the route of Perot from the beginning, so I'm thoroughly unsurprised by him putting his foot in his mouth.

[MrWolfe]

One thing to keep in mind about candidates like Trump is that it can be a clever bait-and-switch: You put somebody up there so outrageously horrifying that anything less abjectly terrible seems like a massive concession.

It's entirely possible that most of the conservative support for Trump is just to make things like de-funding Planned Parenthood and attacking gay rights under the guise of "religious freedom" look more reasonable by comparison to the idea of turning the US into a glorified pillow fort with a sign out front that reads: "No Mexicans or Arabs."

[dman11235]

That was another thought I had.  He's making the other candidates, especially ones with an actual shot of the nomination like Bush and Rubio, look down right progressive and liberal.  In fact, many of them are taking more liberal/progressive stances on a number of things after he speaks.  he's so far right, he's pushing the establishment left.  It's bizarre, and hurts my brain, and I want it to stop.  I want next June to get here so I know what happens, now.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

One thing to keep in mind about candidates like Trump is that it can be a clever bait-and-switch: You put somebody up there so outrageously horrifying that anything less abjectly terrible seems like a massive concession.

It's entirely possible that most of the conservative support for Trump is just to make things like de-funding Planned Parenthood and attacking gay rights under the guise of "religious freedom" look more reasonable by comparison to the idea of turning the US into a glorified pillow fort with a sign out front that reads: "No Mexicans or Arabs."

Except that his p.o.v. is clearly Not
outrageous or horrifying to his voters.

For the life of me, inspite of the furor his
only most recent anti-immigrant broadside,
I can not tell the difference among:
No Immigrants , No Mexicans , No Muslims.

**


Descending fbi/cia/statedept review time:

Refugees have the harshest requirements + scrutiny to get in
H1B's are next , mainly because they might be taking a Smart Loudmouth's job 
H1A's and temp workers, is a nice little semi-corrupt money pile, they ain't messing this up
Tourists get little attention ---> (hey look terrorists here's a hole)
Tourists from "the good guys" countries, get even less attention
Family Reunifications get almost no attention at all, because "F"am'ly values ---> (hey look terrorists just tried this one)

Even Canada has a much stricter points system on Spouses.

[MrWolfe]

Except that his p.o.v. is clearly Not
outrageous or horrifying to his voters.

That's the part I find the most disturbing--that so many people are not just okay with this kind of psychotic bullshit, but are actively supporting it.

[SolEiji]

Except that his p.o.v. is clearly Not
outrageous or horrifying to his voters.

That's the part I find the most disturbing--that so many people are not just okay with this kind of psychotic bullshit, but are actively supporting it.

Aye.  I suspect Trump is trolling; that he's using them because "there's a sucker born every minute".  That or he's pushing the GOP left by being more extreme than they, forcing the overton window.  But at this point even if he is trolling, he's actually empowering a very dangerous segment of the population.

[stanprollyright]

One thing to keep in mind about candidates like Trump is that it can be a clever bait-and-switch: You put somebody up there so outrageously horrifying that anything less abjectly terrible seems like a massive concession.

I don't think anyone is "running" Trump.  The GOP establishment is just as horrified, and it's pushing them to the left (which seems the opposite direction they would like to go).  I also doubt his sincerity, but his supporters are very sincere and that's what's terrifying.

It's entirely possible that most of the conservative support for Trump is just to make things like de-funding Planned Parenthood and attacking gay rights under the guise of "religious freedom" look more reasonable by comparison to the idea of turning the US into a glorified pillow fort with a sign out front that reads: "No Mex'c'ns or A-rabs."

Fixed that for you.


Two interesting viewpoints on "the Trump phenomenon": "The GOP is imploding"
vs.
"It's not a real movement"

[bhu]

Except that his p.o.v. is clearly Not
outrageous or horrifying to his voters.

That's the part I find the most disturbing--that so many people are not just okay with this kind of psychotic bullshit, but are actively supporting it.

Not all despots rise to power through coups or falsified elections.  Plenty of them are voted in by desperate or angry people looking for a change, some of whom possibly feel their country has crossed the Godzilla Threshold.

[MrWolfe]

One thing to keep in mind about candidates like Trump is that it can be a clever bait-and-switch: You put somebody up there so outrageously horrifying that anything less abjectly terrible seems like a massive concession.

I don't think anyone is "running" Trump.  The GOP establishment is just as horrified, and it's pushing them to the left (which seems the opposite direction they would like to go).  I also doubt his sincerity, but his supporters are very sincere and that's what's terrifying.

I dunno, a lot of the things he's saying are the same things republicans have stopped just short of saying for decades. The main difference between trump and the GOP establishment is that Trump isn't bothering to put up a facade for the sake of political expediency--and it seems to be working for him. As for sincerity, I would not be at all surprised that a wealthy, privileged, egomaniacal blowhard like Trump actually believes the kind of shit-stupid bigoted drek that he spouts. I also wouldn't be surprised to find out he was trolling the entire country for shits and giggles just to see how far he could take it.

Or, he could be using the bait and switch himself:

Step 1) Take an extreme hard-line stance to make yourself look strong and whip up support from dipshit fanatics.

Step 2) Once you're in power, do slightly less than murder the firstborn of everyone who voted against you and bathe in their blood on national TV, and people will be so fricking relieved that you'll have a much easier time getting away with all the awful stuff you actually intended to do.

Step 3) Go down in history as a great bi-partisan compromiser for not doing all the completely ridiculous shit you threatened to do during your campaign.

Still, my money's on Trump being a distraction. While everyone's freaking out about him, they're not paying attention to the republicans cutting the funding to Planned Parenthood (none of which goes towards abortions anyways, so the whole thing is just a strawman excuse to fuck over women and deny them basic medical care) or the tidal wave of cops shooting unarmed people (and their dogs) to death--and sometimes shooting themselves and calling it in as an assault--which was beginning to get quite a bit of notice before a certain jackass and his bad toupee gave us all something else to worry about.

Whether or not he knows he's a distraction is academic.

Godzilla Threshold

I am unfamiliar with this term, please enlighten me. It sounds most intriguing.